| Author | Message | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 1660 Registered: 6-2006  |
Animal, in answer to the question you posed, I found this on the Christian Apolgetics site CARM.org ~ "Hell is a real place. It is not mere unconsciousness. It is not temporal. It is eternal torment. Perhaps that is why Jesus spoke more of hell than heaven and spent so much time warning people not to go there. After all, if people just stopped existing, why warn them? If it was temporal, they'd get out in a while. But if it were eternal and conscious, then the warning is strong." This is the link where I found it. http://www.carm.org/christianity/christian-doctrine/hell Again, this subject isn't salvational, however it is a doctrine which has been in existance since before the early church and most orthodox churches have maintained it for hundreds of years. The good news is that if you are in Christ, then Jesus promised you will not go to Hell. At any rate, I've been able to get a good little Bible study out of this subject.  Leigh Anne | ||
| Skeeter Registered user Username: Skeeter Post Number: 556 Registered: 12-2007 |
"Can a conditionalist love and worship a God like that? How can the lump of clay question the Potter about anything?" I dont consider myself a "conditionalist " OR an "Annihilationist" either one (and dont care much for labels)... I am not questioning Gods judgement but I do not think it is wrong to question the differing opinions of PEOPLE when we can all read the same Bible texts and each come to such different conclusions. I just dont see how anyone can be so adamant that their conclusion is the correct one. One of my favorite sayings comes to mind. "Dont believe everything you think" I guess on this subject I will just try to stop trying so hard to figure it out and be content to trust the Lord to handle it His way when the time comes what ever that way turns out to be. 8-) Francie | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 897 Registered: 3-2009 |
Just a few verses which seems to support annihilation: Matt 10:28 Don't fear those who kill the body but are not able to kill the soul; but rather, fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Mal 4:1 "For indeed, the day is coming, burning like a furnace, when all the arrogant and everyone who commits wickedness will become stubble. The coming day will consume them," says the Lord of Hosts, "not leaving them root or branches. Rev 20:14 Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. Rev 20:15 And anyone not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire. Jude 1:7 In the same way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them committed sexual immorality and practiced perversions, just as they did, and serve as an example by undergoing the punishment of eternal fire. Heb 10:26 For if we deliberately sin after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, Heb 10:27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment, and the fury of a fire about to consume the adversaries. Ps 37:10 A little while, and the wicked will be no more;though you look for him, he will not be there. Hec | ||
| Jrt Registered user Username: Jrt Post Number: 1004 Registered: 10-2008 |
oops. Correction, I meant Rev. 22:15 at the end of my last post. Need new glasses . Keri | ||
| Bb Registered user Username: Bb Post Number: 648 Registered: 7-2004 |
I just want to throw in my thought process when I was an adventist. If you didn't "make it" to heaven and during the investigative judgement you had a couple of sins that you forgot to confess and God decided you were not worthy of entering heaven, then the only kind thing that a loving God could do would be to make you suffer just enough for those sins, and then be no more. However, as a believer who has invited Jesus to reside in my heart, I see it the way Lori sees it, you have a simple choice. You can die to self (seed planted in the ground) and Jesus will cause you to grow into a fruitful tree. You are His, and He lives in you and you are sealed with the Holy Spirit! There's no splitting hairs over each sin you might have forgotten to confess, you are bought with a price and the blood covers all sin. When man chooses to reject the amazing gift that has been given to us, his choice results in being eternally separated from God, whatever that means. Jesus felt that he needed to warn us about this "separation" over and over. It is not what He wants, but again it is a simple choice. Hebrews 2:3 (New International Version) 3how shall we escape if we ignore such a great salvation? This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 6059 Registered: 9-2006  |
I keep seeing the words, ‘Thank God its not a salvational issue.’ Used over and over and over on the forum. Thank God this or that is not a salvational issue. Not sure exactly what this phrase means, does it mean it we are free to incorrectly interpret the Bible? Hec said, “I have a problem, and I question the interpretation that some give to some Bible verses, and the dogmatism about it, when there might be more than one way to interpret them. Well…why do we so appear so dogmatic about issues of heaven, hell and the Holy Spirit, and many other issues? Well…lets listen in on the book of IITimothy…. Timothy II 2:9 for which I suffer trouble as an evildoer, even to the point of chains; but the word of God is not chained. Timothy II 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. Timothy II 2:11 This is a faithful saying: For if we died with Him, We shall also live with Him. Timothy II 2:12 If we endure, We shall also reign with Him. If we deny Him, He also will deny us. Timothy II 2:13 If we are faithless, He remains faithful; He cannot deny Himself. Timothy II 2:14 Remind them of these things, charging them before the Lord not to strive about words to no profit, to the ruin of the hearers. Timothy II 2:15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. Timothy II 2:16 But shun profane and idle babblings, for they will increase to more ungodliness. Timothy II 2:17 And their message will spread like cancer. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of this sort, Timothy II 2:18 who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and they overthrow the faith of some. Timothy II 2:19 Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: "The Lord knows those who are His," and, "Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity." Timothy II 2:20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay, some for honor and some for dishonor. Timothy II 2:21 Therefore if anyone cleanses himself from the latter, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified and useful for the Master, prepared for every good work. The key text I want to point out here is, Timothy II 2:15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. And too narrow it down even further, the *rightly dividing* the word of truth. It doesn’t say, be diligent to present yourself approved to man, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, but rather, ‘be diligent to present yourself approved to God. Right dividing his word of truth. Lets take Dennis’s post number 1890 for example, he is rightly dividing the word of truth, taking in all pertinent scripture. He is not doing it to be adamant or stubborn, but to present himself a workman unto God, not needing to be ashamed. If you were to ask him again, you would get the same answer, or the equivalent. What is the purpose and the importance of rightly dividing the word of truth? Well, for one thing we don’t want to stand before God reprimanded, and there are other reasons too. Failure to be able to rightly divide the word of truth leads to ungodliness, I’ll give a shining example here…Adventism. By ignoring one little scripture of ‘No man knows the day or the hour.” From the day that Ellen White ignored this scripture which finally led to her and those that were with her on it’s, being driven out of the that Methodist church, it then spread like a cancer just as it says in IITimothy, and is still spreading to this day. People are being eaten up by the cancer of Adventism, spreading it’s tentacles all over the world, drawing people into its web of deceit. If we are unable to rightly divide the word of truth, it then becomes idle and profane babblings, and it says in IITimothy to shun it. Shun means avoid, turn away, reject, recoil from, balk at, shrink from. Conditionalism invites the sinner to say there is no real need to be a Christian, he’ll just be annihilated anyway. The bible doesn’t read that way, it carries out stern warnings that there are consequences to ignoring God. Annihilation may give you a warm fuzzy, but the problem is, its only a warm fuzzy. So in the final analysis, it may not be salvational, but we want to appear approved of God rightly dividing the word of truth, lest we stand before him ashamed of having not rightly divided his word of truth. What if we go through life teaching such things as conditionalism, then appearing before our lord and savior, as he lays out the truth of the fires of hell with souls tormented night and day? Or some other truth we missed the boat on? We would hang our head in shame. Personally I don’t want to have him lay out truths that I was wrong on, and I’m afraid that’s exactly what’s going to happen, he will lay out the truth for all to see, and every knee shall bow before him. So whether this or that is a salvational issue is beside the point, it seems important to me that we rightly divide the word of truth at all times. IMHO. River | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 3165 Registered: 10-2004  |
Absolutely, River. Thank you for your post. Jeremy | ||
| Sharon3 Registered user Username: Sharon3 Post Number: 21 Registered: 2-2010 |
WOW!! I've been riveted to this discussion all week looking back and forth at the two positons. Interesting how some texts are used in the two different ways. I asked some of my loving Christian friends (never associated with SDA) what their belief in Eternal Hell was. I was actually stunned to learn that they unequivocally believe in Eternal Hell. We were so indoctrinated with this "Loving and Fair God that couldn't torment sinners eternally," that it is such a major paradigm shift for us. I have really appreciated this discussion and everyone for their contribution in helping me come to resolution. The last pillar is falling. | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 3166 Registered: 10-2004 |
Hec,
Notice that Jesus says that people can kill your body but are not able to kill your soul. Then He says to fear God who is able to "destroy" (Gr. apollumi)--not "kill"--both soul and body in hell. Notice how He changes the wording from "kill" to "destroy" in Hell. So God does not kill the body or the soul in Hell. But instead He "destroys" both. This word tranlsated "destroy" is also used of the lost sheep, the lost coin, etc. Jesus even uses it of "the lost sheep of the house of Israel." Were these people or things non-existent or annihilated? Of course not. That's not the primary meaning of the word appolumi. In fact, again, Jesus contrasts it with the word "kill."
That is not even necessarily talking about Hell, and this passage (especially verse 3) certainly may be fulfilled in Revelation 20:9 (which is before the Lake of Fire/Hell). But again, when it comes to Hell we have to see how God defines "consume," such as in Hebrews 10, which I'll get to below.
How does that prove annihilation? It says that the Lake of Fire is the second death. Annihilation is not the second death. Being killed is not the second death. The Lake of Fire (which we are told elseswhere is eternal) is the second death.
The text is not saying that those cities actually experienced eternal fire. The NIV says: "In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire." The NLT says: "And don't forget Sodom and Gomorrah and their neighboring towns, which were filled with immorality and every kind of sexual perversion. Those cities were destroyed by fire and serve as a warning of the eternal fire of God's judgment." In other words, it's a type/antitype situation. The type, or shadow, is never identical to the antitype. In fact it is always lesser.
Keep reading the next verses in that chapter:
Verse 29 is a rhetorical question, implying that infinitely more severe punishment is deserved. The Son of God and His blood is inifnitely greater than Moses and His earthly/physical Law. Also, notice that it explicitly says that Hell will be "much severer punishment" (verse 29) than death (verse 28). That cannot be annihilation, especially if one believes a person ceases to exist at physical death anyway. And again, it implies that the punishment is infinitely more severe (infinite/eternal punishment). Also notice that it says that even those who set aside the Law of Moses died without mercy. And yet annihilationists will say, "A merciful God wouldn't torment sinners eternally." Well, as this texts is saying, and as Revelation 14 says, the wicked don't get mercy! As Revelation 14:9-11 says, they only receive the pure/unmixed wrath of God--not mixed with love or mercy. Just pure just wrath. And that passage also says that it is eternal torment.
I don't see how that's saying anything about annihilation at all. The context is talking about how the wicked won't inherit the land, etc. Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on March 05, 2010) (Message edited by Jeremy on March 05, 2010) | ||
| Jrt Registered user Username: Jrt Post Number: 1005 Registered: 10-2008 |
River, Good post. Jeremy, Thanks for your explanations above ... Sharon3, I was struck by what you wrote and realized a fresh how things were so "ingrained in me", as well, from the teachings of Adventism. You wrote, "We were so indoctrinated with this "Loving and Fair God that couldn't torment sinners eternally," that it is such a major paradigm shift for us. " I resonated with that ... It is an incredible paradigm shift for us ... but I found when I took that shift based on what I saw in scripture and was willing to submit my understanding to what I was seeing in new ways ... my view of God changed (well, it has to, doesn't it?). That "view point" change of God has been astronomical for me, personally. Last night as I was reading this thread and had to go back to scripture - because I had misprinted Rev. 20:15 in my post and had actually meant Rev. 22:15 -- I saw this in Rev. 19 ... which again affirmed in my mind that there definitely is a "wrath" that is from God. This verse comes in the context of describing Jesus whose eyes are a flame of fire ...
I have now had to hold two "seemingly" opposite truths of scripture up ... God is 100% merciful and 100% just; He is full of love and He does have wrath. Only an omnipotent God can do both perfectly. Keri | ||
| Skeeter Registered user Username: Skeeter Post Number: 558 Registered: 12-2007 |
River, While I do agree that it is important to "rightly divide the word of truth" I freely admit that I am not the brightest bulb on the Christmas tree... and some things I just can not figure out. I read what someone posts, or listen to a sermon explaining one way "according to the Bible" and it sounds very convincing... then I read the posts of someone else or listen to another sermon from someone who sees those very same Bible verses in a different way, and it seems just as convincing so there is confusion... which way do I believe ? SO... since I realize that I personally do not possess what it takes to be able to "rightly divide the truth" on this topic I was one of those who posted that I am thankful that the knowledge of those things is not a Salvation issue because I am . I have Faith in Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior and I will carry that faith and love for Him with me and the knowledge that He accepts me as His own. Not because I deserve it or because I have great knowledge but because He loves me. I dont know why He loves me, but I am very thankful that He does. I dont feel I have to possess all knowledge about all things. I am not capable of comprehending a lot of things that seem to me to make sense in more than one way and yet I know it cannot be both ways.. so do I NEED to make a choice and convince myself that it is one way or the other on this issue ? I dont believe that God requires that of me. I believe that I can stay neutral on this topic and just accept that GOD knows, He is in complete control, it is HIS decision to make and when the time comes and we find out which way He will handle it, I have Faith that what ever that way is it will be the RIGHT way. I may not understand in the here and now... but I am confident that I will understand when the time comes that I need to understand. Maybe that time will be here on this earth, maybe not. I will leave that up to Him. I will of course still read what everyone has to say and try to learn what I can from those on here who have a better understanding of certain things than I do, but I have to keep in mind also that as convincing as some arguments may sound to me we are all human and we understand things with human understanding, and I think that when the time comes that we are in Gods presence we will ALL be in for a lot of surprises.:-) I dont possess all (or even much) knowledge,and I am very aware of my weaknesses but I do love God with all that is in me and love others (cant say "as myself" because I think they deserve better than that) I believe He accepts me (yes, even me) because though He knows my limitations, He also knows my heart. Skeeter | ||
| Animal Registered user Username: Animal Post Number: 729 Registered: 7-2008  |
Good post Skeeter. Thanks for sharing your thoughts. Knowledge wont save anyone in the end. Only Jesus saves...Praise His name. ...Animal | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 6063 Registered: 9-2006 |
Skeeter, Now I don't want you to think I was razzing you because you made the statement, I was speaking to the general world. We all got limitations, and I'm far from the brightest bulb on the tree. I just felt the need to point out some things is all. River | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 8001 Registered: 3-2004  |
Skeeter, thanks. You have written what I think. I do not understand everything in the Bible. Some things I will not understand until I am home with Jesus. The one thing I do have is a relationship with Jesus. That is the one IMPORTANT salvation relationship God wants us to have. That I did not have as an sda. I gave up the right to have all the answers when I left sda. Thank you awesome God for that. Diana L | ||
| Clintonc Registered user Username: Clintonc Post Number: 59 Registered: 10-2007  |
I really identify with some of the feelings stated here in this thread. The hell issue, which seems to come up here often, was and is still the hardest thing for me to grapple with. But like Keri, I have to accept what the Bible says, whether or not my mind and emotions agree with it. God is complete love, and completely just. God is completely sovereign, and we as humans also have our free will. God hates sin, and yet He forgives it. God is holy, and we as sinful, flawed humans can have a relationship with our perfectly holy Creator. These are the mysteries of our great Lord. The big question that other have already posed here is "Do we trust the word of God, or not?" This is the heart of the matter. | ||
| Skeeter Registered user Username: Skeeter Post Number: 559 Registered: 12-2007 |
River, I know you were stating what you feel in general terms and not picking on me. :-) I was not offended by your comments. I just realize my limitations on understanding certain things. Skeeter | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 898 Registered: 3-2009 |
I do trust the Word of God. The problem is that some of us are interpreting the same verses and arriving at different conclusions. So in this case, which is the Word of God? If I don't give up my interpretation, could it be said that I'm not trusting the word of God? And if someone else doesn't give up his/her interpretation, can it be said that he is not trusting the word of God? Who is the one trusting the word of God, and who is the one not trusting it? Hec | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 899 Registered: 3-2009 |
Mat 10:28
I fail to see the difference. If the person is destroyed, it's not a person anymore. It might be chemical elements but not a person. It's like the example o a car that has been set before us before. If a car is destroyed, it's not that it is nonexistent, but the parts are separated. OK. That might be the case but it is not a car anymore. If a person is destroyed, the parts, elements, may still exist, but it's not a person anymore. As far as the person is concerned, it is nonexistent. Mal 4:1
Well, it surely sounds like hell. Rev 20:14
Death itself is thrown in the lake of fire. There will be no more death. If there are people burning forever, then there will be death. Jude 7
NIV: "They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire." If they did not suffer eternal fire, then, why is Jude saying that they are an example of those who suffer eternal fire. How can they be an example of something if they did not experience it? Heb 10:27 "but a terrifying expectation of judgment, and the fury of a fire about to consume the adversaries." This verse says that the fire will consume the adversaries. The next verses talk about a much severer punishment, but it does not say that the punishment will be going on forever, just that it will be a more severe punishment. Mt. 37:10 It might be talking about the land of Israel, but verse 11 sure parallels Jesus in Mt 5:5, "the meek will inherit the earth." It seems to me that Jesus is re-applying this psalm to the new earth by making this a parallel. In that case the wicked will be also part of the parallel. They will be no more. Hec | ||
| Snowboardingmom Registered user Username: Snowboardingmom Post Number: 553 Registered: 11-2005 |
Wow, great discussion. It's been very helpful for me actually. As Colleen pointed out, last week Pastor Gary Inrig from Trinity church preached on Hell. I thought I had it clear in my head, but as I drove home from church, I realized that I wasn't so sure. The Sodom and Gomorrah argument kept going through my head (this was even before I read this thread). I realized that the only reason I figured annihilation was not true was because it was Adventist! And while that may be a correct statement, it doesn't make for a very strong doctrinal stance! So the timing of this thread is great, and the insights and study in this thread has been very helpful. I was talking with my husband about it, and I think for me at least, it really comes down to understanding fully that we are more than just "material". There is an "immaterial" part of us that just can't cease. And while the material part of us may burn up, our spirits will always be there. And if we're not born again, then that spirit can't be in the presence of God so it has to go somewhere. When I think it out like that, I realize there HAS TO BE an eternal Hell. So for me, I think it's really wrapping my head around knowing that we are not just bodies. While I know that, it's sometimes hard to transform your whole mindset when you're used to looking at things from a certain perspective. In addition, as already stated above, it's also difficult to see God from a different perspective. We were taught to question His judgment. His wrath was hardly ever fully acknowledged. If anything, we were taught that sin "disappointed" Him, or "saddened" Him. Not only was God diminished, but so was sin. Which is extremely ironic given the fact the church prides itself on obedience. It's just recently that I've understood the "damage" I have had from viewing God as someone that must prove Himself. We've been lied to and told that we have a right to question the character of God. The truth is, we have no right to judge God. The effect is not just theological damage. The additional effect is much deeper; I realized I was never truly able to trust God with my "stuff" when I was constantly testing Him. If it didn't work out MY way, then I would begin to question God. Who am I to question God? God's purpose isn't for us, our purpose is to glorify God. Our thinking as Adventists was really inside out in every way imaginable. So I think as "formers", the hardest part about this Hell issue is seeing things as both material and immaterial (we have spirits), and also seeing God as more than just a God that has to prove Himself to be just and fair. God is a HOLY God, who will not tolerate sin. Scripture is clear that for those who aren't in Him will face His wrath. I don't fully understand it, but I accept it because that's what Scripture tells me. It's a complete paradigm shift to begin to see God as being God! Adventism has diminished Him in so many ways. It's no wonder that for most formers, the "Hell issue" is one of the hardest to grapple. It really deals directly with who God is, and frankly, Adventists don't know who He truly is. Still learning. This thread is helping me a lot. Grace | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 11011 Registered: 12-2003  |
Hec, I understand what you are saying. God never expects us to figure these things out as if we are approaching a difficult piece of literature and then tweaking it to make parallels and analogies that strain the actual words. God Himself will teach us. I've found that I have to be willing to submit my confusion, lack of clarity, and frustration to Him when I'm dealing with a difficult theological concept. Over and over I've finally held up my belief in my mind and asked Him, "Please teach me the truth. Please teach me from your word and show me what is real." It doesn't happen like a flash of lightning, but when I let go of trying to make the verses "fit" together and allow them to say what they say in their literal meanings, even if they appear to contradict each other, God eventually clarifies it to me. The mandatory part of the "equation", though, is giving Him my belief and being willing to know what is true, no matter what that outcome is. On some issues, God has starkly clarified to me that the reality of an issue from my perspective will always be "tension": knowing that seemingly opposite things are true because the Bible clearly says them, but knowing that from His perspective, they make sense together. Meanwhile, I have to hold these things in tension and KNOW they are both true. In regard to other things, God has clearly shown me, as I've read Scripture, that the ways I "interpreted" words aren't necessarily the plain meanings of the those words. Rather, I've "played" with them mentally so they mean things that clearly contradict other places in the Bible. An example of this sort of "playing with words" is the old argument, "When Jesus said, 'I say unto you, today you will be with me in paradise', He didn't really mean that. The Greek doesn't have punctuation, so the translators took their understanding and put a comma in the wrong place. Really Jesus meant, 'I say unto you today, you will be with me...'" In actual fact, that argument was wrong. The clear meaning of the passage in Greek, which doesn't have punctuation, is that Jesus said the thief would be with Him "today". For our SDA teachers to have argued the opposite was literally to teach us untruth, not merely to propose a credible alternative. So, sometimes God clarifies the meanings of the clear words of texts when we let go of our ideas and submit our understanding to Him. Other times He shows us that reality is composed of things that appear opposed to each other but we can't see all of reality here. Just ask God to teach you, Hec. He will! Colleen |
