| Author |
Message |
Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 3197
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, March 25, 2010 - 8:33 pm: |     |
Francie,
Once we are saved we have no fear of Hell, of course. God replaces our correct (pre-salvation) fear of Hell with absolute assurance of salvation.
Those who are not saved should, and some rightly do, FEAR eternal Hell. And that fear can drive someone to Jesus and trust in Him, and He saves them and removes all fear from them.
I don't understand why you aren't understanding what I'm saying.
Are you saying that those who are lost shouldn't fear Hell?
Jeremy
(Message edited by jeremy on March 25, 2010) |
Skeeter
Registered user
Username: Skeeter
Post Number: 617
Registered: 12-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, March 25, 2010 - 8:54 pm: | |
"Once we are saved we have no fear of Hell, of course. God replaces our correct (pre-salvation) fear of Hell with absolute assurance of salvation."
Jeremy, NOW I understand what you meant :-)
And I agree totally !
"Once we are saved we have no fear of Hell, of course. God replaces our correct (pre-salvation) fear of Hell with absolute assurance of salvation. "
I also agree with you statement "Those who are not saved should, and some rightly do, FEAR eternal Hell. And that fear can drive someone to Jesus and trust in Him, and He saves them and removes all fear from them. "
Those who are NOT saved should, absolutely fear hell.
Francie |
Jrt
Registered user
Username: Jrt
Post Number: 1037
Registered: 10-2008
| | Posted on Thursday, March 25, 2010 - 9:01 pm: | |
Sorry, ... I just wanted to say something about the 2 Timothy 1:7 text ... You are right, Francie that a spirit of fear does not come from God ... when we are already "in" Him - meaning saved. Why, ... we have nothing to fear because we know we are eternally secure in Jesus and He is in control.
I would have to agree with Jeremy that the unsaved do and should fear ... because they do not have the indwelling Holy Spirit that confirms their place in Christ. What I have observed is that unsaved people are fearful ... they don't have Christ ... and they should be fearful - because they don't.
Actually, I do know a woman that accepted Christ, because of the doctrine of hell and not wanting to go "there". My pastor has also mentioned a person who received Christ for the same reason ... he said this when I was arguing about hell with him and my previous thinking that God wouldn't scare someone into believing in Christ. Just some examples ...
Keri |
Jrt
Registered user
Username: Jrt
Post Number: 1038
Registered: 10-2008
| | Posted on Thursday, March 25, 2010 - 9:03 pm: | |
oops ... sorry, Francie ... you posted while I was still writing and editing ... sorry ...
Keri |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 11078
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 25, 2010 - 9:33 pm: | |
Also, God "is a consuming fire". There is no place in the universe where He is not—even hell. As Jonathan Bilima said during the Q&A session at the FAF weekend, as a child he used to think God was in charge of heaven, and Satan was in charge of hell.
That is wrong. God is in charge of hell. The wicked will be under God's jurisdiction in hell--but will be unable ever to have a relationship with Him. Remember what God said? Our sins have separated us from God, and no one can be in the presence of a holy God and live—unless he has crossed from death to life by the power of Jesus and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
The non-believers will spend eternity in subjection to God's sovereign power—but not as His children. They will be His enemies, and they will have no part in heaven.
I would hate to be on the "wrong side" of "our God is a consuming fire."
Colleen |
Skeeter
Registered user
Username: Skeeter
Post Number: 618
Registered: 12-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, March 25, 2010 - 11:24 pm: | |
Colleen,
"God is in charge of hell. The wicked will be under God's jurisdiction in hell--but will be unable ever to have a relationship with Him. "
Exactly ! They will NEVER be able to have a relationship with Him.
I thought this was an interesting observation;
"....even if our earthly sins merit a never-ending torture chamber, another question must still be examined: what is the point? Even if we do deserve everlasting Hell, why would God want us to experience that? What purpose is served by keeping people alive to torment them when it is too late for any of them to change their ways?"
"...... even if sinners did deserve this cruel and unusual punishment, is anything resolved through it? If sins against an infinite God deserved unending vengeance, does that mean that the sinners are somehow evening up the score by their suffering? After one hundred thousand years of ceaseless pain, are they any closer to having reconciled their sins against the Lord? Obviously not, if there is no end. If they cannot be made any more righteous by the flames or even pay a smidgen of the debt they owe, why on earth would God choose this fate for them to endure? If wicked, earthly, vengeful humans wouldn't stoop to this kind of senseless infliction of pain, is it really proper to assume it of the all-loving creator?"
I finally took time to read this article and found it very informative. I would like to ask that it be read (in full.. it was 12 pages printed out so not like a whole book) and I would appreciate honest opinions either in agreement or disagreement based on the Bible.
http://www.jeremyandchristine.com/articles/eternal.php
There is also what I feel is a very good article about The rich man and Lazarus. I had never thought it through like this person has.
http://www.jeremyandchristine.com/articles/lazarus.html |
Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 3198
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, March 25, 2010 - 11:56 pm: | |
Francie,
Those quotes are saying that God can give the wicked mercy, without the atonement of Jesus. If He can give us mercy without the atonement of Jesus, then why did Jesus need to die for our sins?
As "Heretic" said earlier in this thread, for God to not be just would be a violation of His very nature.
As for the Rich Man and Lazarus, Jesus did not use lies to teach truth.
That website you are reading is teaching deception, not truth. What is the point of reading articles that agree with the view you have already been indoctrinated with by the false prophet Ellen G. White and Adventism?
Jeremy
(Message edited by jeremy on March 25, 2010) |
Jrt
Registered user
Username: Jrt
Post Number: 1039
Registered: 10-2008
| | Posted on Friday, March 26, 2010 - 4:56 am: | |
Oh, my ... Francie ... here is a quote from this same gentleman in which you are inviting us to read his article on hell. This is a quote from his article on salvation. It is blasphemy about salvation and what constitutes salvation. Sorry, if this man writes about salvation in the manner that he does than I am very concerned for his thoughts on hell. Here is a large quote from him and my insertion of thoughts in blue ...
quote:I believe that men and women from around the world can come to a saving faith in Jesus Christ true statement —even those from remote lands who have never heard the story unclear statement,- what story is he referring to- the story of Christ our Lord? Then yes, they must accept Jesus death and resurrection to be saved . How is this possible? Well, I contend that our savior is at work in every country, every language, every culture, and even other religions I would agree.
Let me pause there for a moment. I want to make something very clear. I am in no way stating that many different religions are correct or that Christianity is just one of numerous ways into Heaven. This position is commonly called universalism, and I certainly do not believe it to be true he cleverly sets you up to believe something about himself, ie. He says he is not a universalist - BUT He IS by how he defines salvation. He is subtly lying - his article is universalism based on loving people well and loving God to get into heaven. I profess that Christianity is the truth and the only one at that.
What I am prepared to defend is my belief that Jesus is active even in the hearts of people who may have never heard the gospel how can Jesus be active in someone's heart if they have never received Him into their heart with saving faith - the indwelling Spirit of God comes into a person's heart when they receive Jesus. God's law of love this is Adventist thought is at work in all parts of the earth. People may live their entire lives without ever being given the choice to accept or reject Jesus by name my God is more powerful than this author is making Him out to be, but they will have hundreds of thousands of opportunities to accept or reject his law of love—to act in pure, unselfish love or to continue in self-centeredness Adventist thought based on a works salvation - which this author will deny latter on in his article - but he defines it here and says he DOES believe it ... it is double-mindedness. I believe that in all of the choices we make on a daily basis, we are actually choosing to make a lifestyle out of following Jesus or rejecting him—and this can be done by anyone regardless of whether or not they know their savior's name.
In the book of First John, the apostle writes, "...love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God" (1 John 4:7-8). Now, I wouldn't claim the verse is saying that, if someone loves his mother yet hates everyone else in the world and is a serial murderer, he will be saved by the one loving relationship. Still, the verse does seem to clearly say that "everyone who loves" (probably everyone who makes a lifestyle out of truly loving others in an honest, self-sacrificial way) "is born of God his definition of born of God is unbiblical and knows God." It seems a bit presumptuous to assume that someone who is born of God and knows God will still receive the eternal punishment of death in the Lake of Fire here is the subtle lie ... yes this is a true statement - but he hasn't stated what it means to be born of God - accept to love God and have a loving lifestyle. Isn't knowing God and being his child the criterion for being accepted into Heaven blasphemy - knowing God comes from accepting Jesus as Lord and Savior - He never states an orthodox Christian understanding? Jesus seemed to indicate that, on judgment day, those who will be sent away will be the ones who "never knew" the Lord (Matt 7:22-23). It would naturally follow then that those who do know God will be saved. And who is it that knows him? "Everyone who loves"! here he gives his meaning behind knowing God - NOT the substitutionary atonement of Jesus - He CUTS Jesus and the cross out of his article and definition o salvation - sorry this is horrendous!!! please!!! Where is the penal substitutionary atonement of Jesus from this man? It is a works based salvation this man is writing about. Sorry, if he writes about salvation - completely cutting out Jesus and His agonizing death on the cross and His powerful resurrection ... this is blasphemy.
Sorry, Francie ... if he has salvation so twisted I don't trust his thoughts on hell.
Here is his quote again, "Isn't knowing God and being his child the criterion for being accepted into Heaven?"
Salvation is based on us loving well - according to this guy. Here is his quote, "It would naturally follow then that those who do know God will be saved. And who is it that knows him? "Everyone who loves"!
So the act of loving becomes the criteria for salvation ... This is how Adventism teaches salvation.
And here is another quote from this author, "Abraham, for example, lived long before any book of the Bible was ever written, and he probably had a name for God that no one else had used—certainly not "Jesus." Abe walked with God and had a very close, personal friendship with Him, but did he believe in Jesus? "
And another, "Those faithful men and women from the B.C. era were unknowingly choosing Jesus Christ as their salvation when they willfully made a lifestyle out of following God and habitually acting in love rather than with selfish ambition."
Francie, this man that writes on hell - is scary when it comes to what he writes about salvation ... I haven't read the one on hell - but if he writes about hell and doesn't have a biblical understanding of salvation - I am totally concerned about his scripture twisting about hell. I will read it for your sake, because I love you ... But please be cautious - this man has salvation completely wrong and too similar to Ellen Whites ping pong style of a seemingly true statement and then a blasphemic one ...
This man sees Jesus as a separate person than God.
Keri
P.S. Here is the website by this same man and he talks about salvation. I can not recommend it, http://www.jeremyandchristine.com/articles/salvation.php |
Jrt
Registered user
Username: Jrt
Post Number: 1040
Registered: 10-2008
| | Posted on Friday, March 26, 2010 - 5:07 am: | |
The gospel is clear in 1 Cor. 15: 1-5
quote:1Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, 2and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.
3For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures,4that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, 5and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve.
Also, salvation is clearly stated in John 5:24, 1 John 5:11-13; John 6:40,47.
Salvation is so simple a 4 year old can be saved. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ -- receive Him as Lord and Savior --- Sorry, it is NOT about loving God well or loving others well --- because you can't do that, ie. love God or others, until you have received Jesus into your heart.
I just needed to clarify salvation for anyone who is lurking or reading.
Keri |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 11079
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Friday, March 26, 2010 - 7:25 am: | |
Francie, I will also read the article you linked a bit later in the day...but I agree with the posts above by Keri.
We have to remember that salvation is by Jesus--not just by an "unknown" sacrifice that covers people's sin even if they never hear of Him, but Jesus said His name is the only way by which we can be saved.
As an adventist I also used to see salvation in remote places the way the author described it above. But that is not biblical. Moreover, the amazing stories coming out of Muslim countries have convicted me: God is responsible Himself for making Jesus known. Muslims who have no way to "hear" of Jesus but are earnestly seeking for truth and for God are literally having visions of JEsus, and those people are brought to belief and to the literal crisis of leaving all they know to follow Him.
If there is no way for people to hear of Jesus, God provides a way Himself. There truly is no excuse.
We can't take our teaching about any doctrine--especially our doctrines about any portion of God and His attributes including justice, from people who are not straight on the literal simplicity of the gospel. We must take God at His word.
We cannot compromise the identity of JEsus, the way we are saved, or the Bible's revelation about God's purposes. We must believe and teach all the Bible teaches--even when things "seem" to make no logical sense.
Insight follows obedience. When we trust what He has said, even if we don't understand HOW, He begins to resolve the confusion, and the eternal whole becomes more clear to us. He is faithful.
Colleen |
Jrt
Registered user
Username: Jrt
Post Number: 1041
Registered: 10-2008
| | Posted on Friday, March 26, 2010 - 8:45 am: | |
Dear Francie,
I also wanted to comment directly to you - because I know a forum format may give you the impression I am angry with you or something like that ... I don't want that to even remotely come across. I was angry with this man's words about salvation ... and I admit I was strong in my response about his writing on salvation ...
I become passionate about the simple gospel message and that comes out when I see the simple gospel twisted or deceitfully compromised.
Again, please don't misunderstand my writing ...
I have already learned from you about "degrees" of punishment in scripture that I hadn't known before. And I thank you for your persistence and willingness to share - and I do desire to learn more from you ... please don't take what I have written as an angst towards you ... it definitely is not ...
It is an angst towards this man's deceptiveness and twisting of scripture on the gospel unto salvation ...
Keri |
Skeeter
Registered user
Username: Skeeter
Post Number: 619
Registered: 12-2007
| | Posted on Friday, March 26, 2010 - 9:32 am: | |
Colleen,
As to your quotes on the statements made about what is requited for salvation. I agree with you fully.
JESUS is the ONLY way to salvation.
I didnt say I agree with everything this man has written on every subject. I have not read all his articles. When I first found his website I was looking only for information (I also searched many others) about the subject of Hell and looking for answers one way or other on the subject of an eternal hell vs. annihilation.
I have read many articles by others (including statements on this forum) in defense of eternal Hell. And when I saw this man had a different viewpoint (yes,one that I was leaning toward sharing) I felt there was nothing wrong with reading HIS article upholding his belief in the annihilation viewpoint. I wanted to hear both sides to be able to make an informed decision.
Jeremy: "Those quotes are saying that God can give the wicked mercy, without the atonement of Jesus. If He can give us mercy without the atonement of Jesus, then why did Jesus need to die for our sins? "
Jeremy if you would read the whole article and not just the couple quotes I posted I believe you would see that he is not saying that the wicked could (or should) be given "mercy", but pointing out that since they ARE lost and there is NO chance for mercy, then what would be the point in God choosing to torture these lost people through eons and eons?
Jeremy:"As for the Rich Man and Lazarus, Jesus did not use lies to teach truth. "
The rich man and Lazarus is a completely different article . I just made reference to it as I thought it was interesting and wanted someone else to READ it and give information on if this mans ideas make sense (in Biblical context) or not.
Jeremy:'What is the point of reading articles that agree with the view you have already been indoctrinated with by the false prophet Ellen G. White and Adventism? ?"
Jeremy, I have already pointed out that this is just one of MANY articles I have read on BOTH viewpoints. I have read viewpoint on this forum as well as other websites that hold the "eternal hell" position, and since MOST on this forum seem to hold that position I was willing to listen and read and try to understand that viewpoint. I was just HOPING that those who believe in eternal hell would be open minded enough to also want to read information supporting the OTHER side. Should we read ONLY information that supports what we already believe ? How are we to learn anything that way ? I am trying to read and learn about BOTH positions. I do not feel it would be fair to no even consider the alternatives to annihilation any more than it would be fair to say that I believe in an eternal hell and not be willing to at least consider the possibility of another position.
I am just trying to weigh both sides and look at the overall message of the Bible and not just accept a few verses that seem to point one way or the other. As we "formers" know, the Bible can be proof texted to support about anything if we dont take time to take everything in context and see what unfolds throughout the whole of the Bible, not just one book or text here and there.
Jeremy:"What is the point of reading articles that agree with the view you have already been indoctrinated with by the false prophet Ellen G. White and Adventism? "
I am VERY hurt to read that statement and to be made to feel that you think I am upholding Ellen White and /or Adventism. :-[
I am fully aware that Ellen White was a false prophet, I am fully aware that the Doctrines of the SDA church are founded upon error upon error upon error.
I do NOT believe in "soul sleep" the "Investigative judgment" I have come to the realization that the Ten Commandments were a part of the OLD Covenant and were done away with in favor of the New Covenant in Jesus Christ.
I do NOT consider myself in any way, shape or form an SDA !!!
Because I question the aspect of eternal hell vs. annihilation and I personally (not because of ANY church doctrine) see the Lord as MORE of a God of Love than of revenge, and I feel He WILL indeed punish those who are lost. I do not believe that He will keep an ever burning hell going throughout eternity for the sole purpose of torturing those who have been lost. But that He will punish them for their wickedness (according to their deeds Revelation 20:12-13 )
and THEN completely and utterly destroy them body mind AND soul (annihilation )
Keeping a place of ETERNAL torment alongside a place of ETERNAL life and love and joy and worship and praise... just does not make sense to me as an "eternal" concept.
Only God knows the answers for sure and I am sure He will do the right thing. If it is annihilation then fine. If it IS indeed eternal hell then I am confident that when the time comes He will help me to understand why it needs to be that way.
I feel "eternal life" is a GIFT from God. Why would He give "eternal life" to someone in an everlasting, everburning, place of torture ?
I truly believe to think of God in that way is to do Him a great injustice.
Apparently this line of discussion is making several people very upset with me so I will continue to study BOTH sides of the issue alone and will not post anything on here about this subject again. I apologize to those I have upset by wanting you to at least LOOK at the possibility of BOTH sides. By doing that apparently I come across as being brainwashed by Ellen White.
I apologize for posting my thoughts on this and Colleen you have my permission and maybe it would be best,, to delete my posts with any links to places you do not approve of and any other of my posts in full or in part that contains any statements that you feel would be upsetting to anyone on this forum and might make them think anything other than what the majority here have come to accept as "truth".
I truly love all of you and I dont want to cause problems here, just wanted to share what I had found, my thoughts, etc. I apologize to anyone and everyone I have upset in any way.:-(
Francie |
Cindy
Registered user
Username: Cindy
Post Number: 820
Registered: 7-2000
| | Posted on Friday, March 26, 2010 - 11:07 am: | |
Francie, no worries!
The discussion you brought up is one we all have to look into for ourselves... It is good to read opposite viewpoints!
I remember many years ago being told by a family member to throw out any non-Ellen White book I had in the house so I wouldn't be deceived by non-SDA thinking. We as Formers wouldn't want to promote that type of closed thinking, even from the flip side of the spiritual coin.
God's Holy Spirit is powerful enough to provide us with the discernment of "truth" as revealed in Jesus.
Keri,
I agree with, and appreciate, the work you put into your posts; always focusing on the supremacy of the Cross of Christ!
grace,
cindy |
Jrt
Registered user
Username: Jrt
Post Number: 1042
Registered: 10-2008
| | Posted on Friday, March 26, 2010 - 12:16 pm: | |
Francie,
I concur with Cindy. We need to see both sides and study things out for ourselves and ask the Holy Spirit to guide us to the truth. That is what I saw you doing and saying we should do.
I DO plan on reading your link on annihilation and am glad you brought it here. This IS the place to question --- forgive me if it sounded as if I was upset with you ... I was not ... just upset with what I was reading - and that is perfectly, ok!
I guess I'm particularly sensitive to the gospel message and it came across in my post. But I was the one that found the link and even posted it here, too, for others to read for themselves. And they, too, can make their own judgments which may be different then mine. They may have a different opinion or reaction to the link I posted and that is ok, too.
I apologize, again, if it sounded like I was angry with you ... I was certainly not ... I was reacting to what I was reading about and this man's description of the gospel ... I should have tempered my language ...
You have done nothing wrong and I have appreciated your thoughts and input and I will indeed read the link you posted about hell vs. annihilation. It is important to study both sides of the issue ...
And I DO hear you say Jesus is the only way unto salvation. You are just questioning hell as eternal torment vs. annihilation ... and it is important to do what you are doing. I applaud you for your perseverance in seeking truth. This is what I want too ... and so I do plan on reading the link on annihilation and glad you provided it.
Anyways, I am sorry, it came out strong and I certainly don't want you to go quiet on the forum. Your thoughts and input is too valuable. As I said, I learned from you about degrees of punishment that I thought was an Ellenism, but was a biblical concept. I keep learning all the time ...
With care,
Keri
P.S. Wish we could go out for coffee or to a sandwich shop and just enjoy each others company as fellow believers. I need those things to look forward to - and I would certainly look forward to spending time with you - we could just talk about life in general and how Jesus has brought us to Himself  . |
Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 3200
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Friday, March 26, 2010 - 12:41 pm: | |
Francie,
I was not upset with you. Please don't exaggerate the things I said. No one ever said you shouldn't post your thoughts on here.
And most of us have looked at the possibility of both sides. If we used to be SDA, then obviously we have believed both sides in our lives.
quote:Jeremy if you would read the whole article and not just the couple quotes I posted I believe you would see that he is not saying that the wicked could (or should) be given "mercy", but pointing out that since they ARE lost and there is NO chance for mercy, then what would be the point in God choosing to torture these lost people through eons and eons?
If God ended their suffering when they actually deserved eternal punishment, then that would be giving the wicked mercy.
quote:Jeremy, I have already pointed out that this is just one of MANY articles I have read on BOTH viewpoints. I have read viewpoint on this forum as well as other websites that hold the "eternal hell" position, and since MOST on this forum seem to hold that position I was willing to listen and read and try to understand that viewpoint.
Okay, I must have missed that, I apologize.
quote:I was just HOPING that those who believe in eternal hell would be open minded enough to also want to read information supporting the OTHER side.
I have read much in support of annihilation, especially after leaving Adventism and accepting the doctrine of eternal Hell. I have dealt with the best arguments for annihilation, and debated this issue in-depth. I am well-versed in the annihilationist arguments, and reject them as unBiblical.
quote:Should we read ONLY information that supports what we already believe ?
I don't know why you would think I'm saying that, since what I was asking you was why you are reading something that you do agree with already...
quote:I am VERY hurt to read that statement and to be made to feel that you think I am upholding Ellen White and /or Adventism. :-[
quote:By doing that apparently I come across as being brainwashed by Ellen White.
No, that's not what I meant at all. What I was saying was that you, along with all the rest of us formers, have been indoctrinated and deceived by a false prophet into believing in annihilationism. It's something that has already been cemented in our thinking and beliefs. So I was just wondering why you would feel the need to read articles in support of it. I applaud the fact, though, that you are also reading articles in support of eternal Hell.
So yes, you have been brainwashed by Ellen White to believe in annihilation. All of us have been. I am not trying to be hurtful by saying that. It is a spiritual deception. I mean, let's be honest--if we hadn't ever been SDA, we most likely would never have believed in annihilationism.
For the record, you are not causing any problems here and no one is upset with you for posting your thoughts.
Jeremy
(Message edited by jeremy on March 26, 2010) |
Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 3201
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Friday, March 26, 2010 - 12:47 pm: | |
For anyone wanting to examine this topic some more, here are links to a couple of very good articles on the subject of Hell:
http://www.bible-researcher.com/hell4.html (Part 1)
http://www.bible-researcher.com/hell5.html (Part 2)
http://www.mtio.com/articles/bissar21.htm
Jeremy |
Skeeter
Registered user
Username: Skeeter
Post Number: 620
Registered: 12-2007
| | Posted on Friday, March 26, 2010 - 4:20 pm: | |
Cindy, Keri, Jeremy,
Thank you for responding and letting me know that you are not angry about my posts :-)
Sometimes it is very difficult trying to explain our true meaning or intent when we have to depend on typing things out instead of being able to sit and talk about things face to face.
I am afraid I tend to just let my fingers fly and HOPE that my words will come across and be understood in the manner in which they are meant, which unfortunately is not always the case.
Jeremy:"I was not upset with you. Please don't exaggerate the things I said. No one ever said you shouldn't post your thoughts on here. "
Jeremy, I apologize if I "exaggerated" what you said. I thought by you saying " What is the point of reading articles that agree with the view you have already been indoctrinated with by the false prophet Ellen G. White and Adventism?" that you had made it quite clear what you thought... if my reception of that statement was exaggerated I apologize.
also you said :"No one ever said you shouldn't post your thoughts on here. "
I realize no one said that. I was the one who said that of myself. In my searching for what is true I do not want to cause problems for anyone else, I do think it is important to study both sides of issues including this one.
Your statement :" what I was asking you was why you are reading something that you do agree with already..."
Because I am trying to study BOTH sides.
I guess I could ask the same question of you (as to your posts of the above "very good articles"
are they articles that are telling of things that YOU already agree ? and if so, WHY are you reading them if you agree with them already ?
I am assuming it is for the same reason I posted a link to the article I did.. even though we may differ in our opinions about eternal hell vs annihilation,, I believe you want information on both sides also. It is more important to study to learn truth than to be (or feel that we are )RIGHT. :-)
BTW, I am in the process of printing out those 3 articles you linked to and I promise to read them with prayer and an open mind.:-)
Francie |
Jrt
Registered user
Username: Jrt
Post Number: 1043
Registered: 10-2008
| | Posted on Friday, March 26, 2010 - 5:57 pm: | |
Yeh!! I was SO glad to see your post Francie!
Maybe some day we can have that coffee or sandwich shop time together! It will be something I can pray for ... God has been so good in answering prayers lately. And seeing your post here tonight was one of them.
I have to admit I haven't read the link yet ... my day got away from me and I must be up early tomorrow morning ... but hopefully I can read it tomorrow. And I hope to read Jeremy's links, too.
Blessings,
Keri |
Skeeter
Registered user
Username: Skeeter
Post Number: 621
Registered: 12-2007
| | Posted on Friday, March 26, 2010 - 7:09 pm: | |
Thank you Keri , you are very sweet :-)
I would love to meet you someday. I know we would have much to talk about.
Jesus is so good and He has led all of us to this forum for a reason. :-)
Francie |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 11081
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Friday, March 26, 2010 - 11:43 pm: | |
Francie, I'm certainly not upset with you, either! I love seeing you here and interacting with you! I'm not worried about you; God is faithful, and He'll guide you to where He wants you to land.
You're a great forum member!
Colleen |
Skeeter
Registered user
Username: Skeeter
Post Number: 622
Registered: 12-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, March 27, 2010 - 7:06 am: | |
Thank you Colleen :-)
I am not going away.... sometimes I think maybe I talk too much though...LOL
Francie |
Philharris
Registered user
Username: Philharris
Post Number: 2052
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, March 27, 2010 - 7:19 am: | |
Francie,
It is ok to ask real questions.
It is ok to be honest.
It would not be honest to agree with "group thinking" when it is not what you think.
Your understanding of God and what he is teaching you comes from the indwelling of the Holy Spirit who will guide you into all truth.
We are all learners here.
I have been so blessed by the thoughts of all here on the forum, even when I have a different idea.
God's ways are far greater than our limited human understanding.
P.S.
I am having a day of rest in Christ here at work.
Praise God.
Fearless Phil |
Cindy
Registered user
Username: Cindy
Post Number: 821
Registered: 7-2000
| | Posted on Saturday, March 27, 2010 - 5:16 pm: | |
Phil,
I love your p.s. regarding your day of rest in Christ...at work!
grace,
cindy |
Jrt
Registered user
Username: Jrt
Post Number: 1044
Registered: 10-2008
| | Posted on Saturday, March 27, 2010 - 6:16 pm: | |
Phil,
I agree with you and you articulated it SO well. I think in Adventism we were afraid to question - at least I was ... and if you did question you were made to feel "less" spiritual. And that is just wrong!! I am amazed that Christendom - at least where I am at - encourages questions ... we are told to not take our teachers or pastors "word for it" - but to study it out for ourselves. I like that!
There is a verse in Isaiah that says in essence, "Come let us reason together" ... and the Message says, "Come let us argue it out" ... - I'm probably taking it out of context - but I still like it, ha!
You said, "It would not be honest to agree with "group thinking" when it is not what you think." So well said ... I prefer honesty over "group think" and Francie (sorry to talk in third person) has been very honest - which I appreciate!
Keri |
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