| Author | Message | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1887 Registered: 4-2000  |
Hec, It is my understanding that only the very worst demons were committed to "pits of darkness" (NASB). I am thankful that not all the demons are loose in this world. Satan and his angels NEVER have a good day. They fully realize that their worst fate still lies ahead of them. Each new day is more depressing than the last. The demons in the man Jesus healed were afraid of returning to hell. Thus, Jesus sent the demons into a herd of swine. Yes, you are right, Satan and his angels await judgment--an eternal sentence according to their works. My point in posting 2 Peter 2:4 was to reveal the long duration of God's divine wrath that greatly horrifies conditionalists. Dennis Fischer | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 882 Registered: 3-2009 |
I don't know much about these Nephilim, but if angels are spirit as Jesus says, and they do not marry (apparently the can't have sex. That's how we will be like them in the resurrection) cannot procreate as Jesus says Mt. 22:30. How are these Nephilim the sons of God? Wouldn't that be more logical that the songs of God would be the sons of Adam who were on God's side as opposed to the sons of Cain who were against God? Hec | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 3160 Registered: 10-2004  |
Hec, For more on the Nephilim see here and here (scroll down to the entry for verse 6). Angels are indeed spirits, and as Jesus said, "the angels in heaven" do not marry. However, we also know that angels can appear in flesh. For example, the two angels in Genesis 18 even ate food, and the men of Sodom even wanted to have sex with these angels in Genesis 19. Another possibility, as the above links point out, is that the fallen angels possessed human males. In any case, Jude makes it pretty clear that he is referring back to Genesis 6 when he mentions angels sinning:
Also, how would the sons of Seth marrying the descendants of Cain produce giants? And why would it be a cause for destroying the earth by Flood? As Genesis states, the Nephilim were also produced after the Flood. And in Numbers 13, we see another reference to them:
Apparently, the way God dealt with them after the Flood was to have them all killed by the Israelites. Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on February 28, 2010) | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 6045 Registered: 9-2006  |
People say "I believe this (or) I believe that." As if their believing something makes it a reality. I may 'believe' the moon is made of green cheese, but do ya think it is? | ||
| Skeeter Registered user Username: Skeeter Post Number: 550 Registered: 12-2007 |
I am so glad that our salvation does NOT depend on us having all the answers :-) In my heart I tend to "believe" on this subject as Hec and Snewbie. But as River has pointed out.. just because we believe something does not make it a reality. (That goes both ways IMO) :-) Francie / Skeeter | ||
| Christo Registered user Username: Christo Post Number: 209 Registered: 2-2008 |
River, I hate to argue with you, but studies have shown that the moon is made out of swiss cheese.  Chris | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 10995 Registered: 12-2003  |
Snewbie and Hec, there really are distinct texts in the NT that state hell is eternal, and Jesus Himself is the one who taught this. In fact, Jesus taught more about hell than any other person in the Bible. In Matthew 24:46, when Jesus teaches on those who are saved and lost, He said, "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." The Greek word for "eternal" in both cases is the same. If eternal life is eternal, then eternal punishment has to be eternal. I realized, when I was processing through the biblical texts on hell, that I had been taught an incorrect definition of death. I learned that death means "ceasing to exist". In fact, the Bible teaches that our first death is a separation of the body and the soul/spirit, as when Jesus said, "Into Your hands I commit my spirit." Death for a human is never defined in the Bible as ceasing to exist, but it is defined as the spirit leaving the body and returning to God who made it (Ecclesiastes 12:7). Similarly, eternal punishment and the "second death" is an eternal separation from God. That separation is not defined as annihilation or as ceasing to exist. Jesus described it as eternal punishment. Ephesians 2:1-3 clarifies that before we are made alive in Christ, we are dead in sin, by nature "objects of wrath" (v. 3). Similarly, Col 1:13 states that the Father transfers us from the domain of darkness into the kingdom of His beloved Son. Before we are born again, we are literally spiritually dead...yet we are walking around and breathing. This spiritual death is what Adam and Eve experienced and is our natural legacy from them. Romans 5 describes this reality as well. So, "death" is not non-existence. Death is separation from God. When the body dies, the spirit leaves the body; this condition is what Jesus called "sleep". When Jesus raised Jairus' daughter, for example, the Bible says her spirit returned to her. Moreover, this "spirit" is not mere breath. Jesus Himself said that true worshipers worship God "in spirit and in truth" because "God is spirit" (John 4:25). Finally, Jesus said,
Jesus here is saying that it is God, not satan who destroys beings in hell. And by the way, "destroy" is not a synonym for "annihilate" or "cease to exist". If I destroy my life, I'm not killing myself. I'm making horrific choices that alienate my loved ones, ruin my career, hurt my kids, and disintegrate my marriage. I may be making decisions that are so self-indulgent I become ill [ie. rugs, alcohol, etc], or gambling, or being promiscuous, or raging, etc etc. But I am not actually KILLING myself or ceasing to exist. Nevertheless, my life is destroyed. If God's justice does not include a consequence for those who trample others and reject the Sin Bearer that is of equal but opposite "weight" as the result of eternal life for those who trust the Sin Bearer, then God's grace isn't all that remarkable. If the lost merely cease to exist after a "short burn", salvation isn't all that much. But the consequence of rejecting the Sin Bearer must be of equal but inverse weight as is the consequence of trusting the Sin Bearer. If sinners ceased to exist, there was little reason for God to give Himself to pay the price for our sin to Himself through the death of His Son. Jesus' death wasn't primarily for the purpose of showing us God's love. It was for the purpose of paying the price—being a "propitiation" for our sin (Romans 3:26). It was to be our Substitute, the human death required for human sin (see Hebrews 2). His death was for the purpose of actually becoming sin for us (2 Cor 5:21) and a curse (Gal 3:13) so we might become the righteousness of God (2 Cor 5:21). God is more holy, more sovereign, more powerful, more just, more merciful, and more patient than we imagined. He is not "humanoid"; He is GOD. And He has made us who have been born again His sons and heirs (Rom 8:14-16). Colleen | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 10996 Registered: 12-2003 |
Here is Gary Inrig's sermon from yesterday (Feb 28); he preached of all things, on Hell. It is an amazing sermon: http://www.trinityonline.org/cgi-bin/MediaList.cgi?section= Colleen | ||
| Skeeter Registered user Username: Skeeter Post Number: 553 Registered: 12-2007 |
Thank you Colleen, I will download and listen to that sermon. This is something I am still really struggling in trying to understand. I do realize that God will give out penalty for Justice sake, and yet He is also a God of such love and mercy that I still cannot grasp the idea that He would allow fallen humanity to suffer throughout all eternity. I know God has it all worked out in advance,,, but my human mind just keeps wondering... how could we truly be happy in Heaven, more importantly, how could GOD be truly happy throughout all eternity knowing that there is a group of people even though truly deserving of punishment LIVING in eternal torment ? Can Heaven truly be Heaven while carrying the knowledge that somewhere out there is through all eternity a place where there is such suffering going on ? I know there are verses in the Bible that defend that view... but arent there also Bible verses that show that "forever/ eternal" does not always mean eternity as never ending... but to mean eternal in as long as it lasts ? Isnt there a verse that says that they will be burnt as chaff ? Chaff burns until it is gone.. or does that mean the body only ? I cant remember where the verses are,, but arent there verses that give examples such as cities that will burn "forever" that are not still burning today ? I guess I should just be quiet and go listen to that sermon before I say any more... it just befuddles my mind. Since it is not a matter of salvation to know,,, I wish I could just let it go and not give it any more thought,, but every time I see it mentioned on here it makes me start wondering all over again. Sometimes I wonder if we as "formers" are so adamant in leaving behind everything we learned as SDA that we might also be guilty of tossing out a few things that we learned that were maybe not that far off ? Is it wise to convince ourselves that every single thing we learned as SDA must be totally wrong because we learned it while still SDA ? Just wondering.... Skeeter | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 883 Registered: 3-2009 |
It seems to me that if there is a hell burning forever, then there is still death and hades (hell KJV. But there will be neither death nor hell. They will be thrown into the lake of fire. Now if hell is thrown into the lake of fire, doesn't that mean that hell will exist no more. Yes, death is many times separation from... but not all the times. Hec | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 3161 Registered: 10-2004 |
Hec, Revelation 21:4 only applies to the saved. But a different story applies to the unsaved--see verse 8 of Revelation 21. Even in the eternal state in Revelation 22:15, the unsaved are still "outside." Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on March 01, 2010) | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 1655 Registered: 6-2006  |
Snewbie got me thinking. I'd like to find specific texts about what Heaven is really like. I don't believe that people will be worried about anyone once they are there ~ I've always understood that we will basically be so enveloped in God's presence that we will either understand why certain people won't be there or we won't be concerned about it. Has anyone here ever done a study? Leigh Anne | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 7990 Registered: 3-2004  |
I heard a sermon yesterday morning by David Jeremiah about what heaven is like physically. He told about the size, the foundations, the gates made of pearls. It was fascinating. As I listened I thought that as long as I am there I will be glad. I did not hear all of it as I left for church. Like you, the way I see it now is that once I am there I will not think of those left behind. I will be so awed by God's presence, that will be all I am concerned about. Diana L | ||
| Sharon3 Registered user Username: Sharon3 Post Number: 14 Registered: 2-2010 |
Thank you everyone for your comments here and a special thank you to Snewbie for bringing up your position and Hec and Skeeter for your comments as well. I especially resonated with Skeeter's comments. It brought out a discussion that I am ready to listen to now. It is the last pillar to fall for me and I don't know if it will fall or not. I am reading and rereading Colleen's comments and will download the sermon to see if there is any clarity. I listened to Graham Maxwell for so many years that his position is really embedded in my brain. I will be more alert to the Bible and what it says about this topic. (Message edited by Sharon3 on March 02, 2010) | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 1565 Registered: 7-2003  |
I do not say this to be inflammatory in any way. It probably will be anyway, but I do think it’s worth considering for just a moment and considering the implications. This is just an observation that seems so consistent it appears to be something of a truism. It appears to me that when discussing the doctrine of Hell with someone who takes an annihilationist view point, the conversation very seldom is grounded and rooted in a careful, thorough analysis of what the preponderance of biblical evidence points to. If it were, I really don’t think there would be hardly any annihilationists. Sooner or later, the conversation almost always turns to what kind of god a person would prefer to worship, is willing to worship, or wants to think they worship. There seems to be less concern for what God’s Word reveals about who He really is and how He relates to sin, then there is for preserving an image of a god of our own making. I think in approaching this subject we have to ask ourselves, I mean REALLY seriously ask, “Do I want a god of my own making, or do I truly want to know the God who is revealed in scripture?” That may seem like and easy question, but it’s not. Many would prefer a god who fits their notion of what a god should be over the One who truly is. Many would reject any and all evidence that would contradict the god they have constructed. It’s a sobering thought. Chris | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 889 Registered: 3-2009 |
I don't see where it says that it only applies to the saved. I just see that it says that in the new world there will be no more death. As far as the ones who will be outside, I don't see how that can apply to people burning in hell. The passage is talking about the city. It seems to me that the people in the city will go outside sometime unless they are prisoners in the city. So "outside" cannot be referring to a location when some will be inside and some outside, but it could be referring to the fact that there is a group that made it into the city and another group that did not make it into the city (making it meaning accepting Jesus and being saved.)So the ones mention being outside do no necessarily are people who are physically outside. Oh, they will be for some time, but afterward they will disappear along with death and hell. Hec | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 942 Registered: 5-2007 |
Colleen, You made some statements about the meanings of death, soul, destroy, and so on. What I am getting from this is words really have no actual meaning. Destroy does not mean anhilate? This comes across (to me) as spliting hairs on words. Then proceeding to build or support and entire theory on the play of words. Yet , when I read thru scripture, I do not see these theories being stated in this way. The extrapoliations are constructs of modern day theories IMO. "Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Matthew 10:28) I take this pretty much at face value. Why would this statement be made at all if it can be made into none effect by redefining words? It should have read then in paraphrase: .....is able to mess up your existance by decompliling your continuity as you currently exist and placing you in a perpetual containment field disassembled and non functional yet existing eternally as a pain sensing vessel. Makes my head hurt. Jim | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 891 Registered: 3-2009 |
What God is, God is. It makes no difference how we picture him. What I have not found yet is convincing evidence that the Bible teaches "eternal punishing" unless I already believe in that theory and accommodate some verses that appear to teach it, disallowing a lot of other that appear to say differently. About Jim paraphrase, I have always wondered what would be God's purpose in keeping people "non functional yet existing eternally as a pain sensing vessel." Of course, if the Bible were to say that, I would have to believe it even if I don't understand God's purpose. But I cannot find it in the Bible. Hec | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 3162 Registered: 10-2004 |
Jim, If you take the text at face value, though, wouldn't you have to admit that it's saying that the soul does not die even though the body does? Jeremy | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 1657 Registered: 6-2006 |
The whole point of that text is not to prove annihilation, but to fear God and not men. (I swear, whenever this subject comes up it's almost a robotic reaction to throw out that verse as if it explains everything.) I don't see anywhere in that text where God definitely annihilates people after a period of time in Hell. I see where it says he is "able" to destroy both body and soul. Of course he is able! He is God. For those of you who believe in annihilation, please provide enough scripture to back it up, maybe a little Bible study. Even better, if you have scripture that backs up "the loving god who would never let anyone suffer in an eternal Hell" please provide that as well. Leigh Anne |
