| Author | Message | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 909 Registered: 5-2007 |
Hello everyone. Been awhile. I miss our talks. I have blinked in now and then, not really "lurking" as it were. Just seeing what was the days topic and food for thought. I have lost track of folks. In the past months I have been doing some reading on early church history and reading a theology study on Christianity through the centuries. I learn tid bits here and there and hope that somehow all this information will coalesce into a tangible framework. Mostly, I have strived to stay out of debate and have elected to just absorb. Still haven't found a church. I attended another one a few times. Went to a large one too. I can't blame anyone or any place. Just not making connections as yet. My mother was a Baptist but rarely attended church. She had difficulty in the social connection as well when it came to church attendance. She lived her church. It was her style. So , I wonder, if it's a bit of my Mom's influence? Regardless, I do want to connect someday in a fellowship. Though I realize, I have to sort some things out still. In my many attempts to expand my social activities (while coming away from adventism culture) I still deal with being different and the jesting it often triggers. I have made progress. I have trippled the variety of foods I eat, learning how to cook more things. My sister suggested that I would be better off going back to the SDA for fellowship than to continue churchless. It is a culture shock thing. The thing is there is a lot of stuff that would in effect make me a insincere "friend of the church". I don't see how I could accept the list of do's and don'ts . Thus , the draw being only the need for fellowship and being accepted as normal like I used to be. We go back to our comforts, to where we last found them. Thus, the vacuum persists in this area. In so many other ways , I have continued to grow. I just hope it is not roots upon rocky places. In other news ! I have been blessed with a Grand daughter. Jan 25th. 7 lbs 7 oz. She's beautiful. Jim02 | ||
| Psalm107v2 Registered user Username: Psalm107v2 Post Number: 567 Registered: 10-2008  |
Jim02, So good to see you back. congrats on the new granddaughter is this a first grandchild? I pray that your spiritual/fellowship needs will be met. I know from past experience it can be difficult. good to hear from you again and glad you let us know how you are doing Enoch | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 10903 Registered: 12-2003  |
Jim, it's so good to hear from you again! Yes, congratulations on the new granddaughter! I also pray that you will find a place to fellowship. It's hard to do, but it's important to come to the place where we submit not only our behavior but our minds and our "life's outcomes" to the Lord Jesus and Scripture. Somehow that submission begins to make truth and deception much more distinct. You are always welcome. It's so good to see you back! Colleen | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 1162 Registered: 7-2007 |
Jim! It's so good to hear from you again! And congratulations on your granddaughter! I'm glad you're back!  Please don't go back to the SDA church or any church that ADDS to the gospel! It would be far better to spend time with the Lord and remain churchless while you're searching, than to be in a cult where the spirit of deception is very real and dangerous. Again, glad to have you back! | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 7892 Registered: 3-2004  |
Jim, OHHHH, SOOOOO good to see you back here. God has a place for you, just has not shown it to you yet. One certain thing is that He will never abandon you. And PLEASE, do not return to sda. Don't get caught up in that again. Congratulations on the new granddaughter, Grandpa Jim. Grandchildren are terrific. Will continue to pray for you. Glad you are back. Diana L | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 1975 Registered: 5-2007  |
Jim, Good to hear from you. Congratlulations on being gifted with a granddaughter. Most of all, walk with the Lord in your search for peace. Fearless Phil | ||
| Bobj Registered user Username: Bobj Post Number: 439 Registered: 1-2006  |
Jim you mentioned the cultural thing, and after all the effort to untangle the theological mess of adventism, we have that to deal with that, too. I live in an area with many Christian churches, but I am almost certain the challenge would be greater in a small community--where everyone knows everyone else. I get painted as a heretic regularly, as one who "lost his way" according to adventist relatives. It's positively heartwarming to know they still have the truth! And I kind of like being on a lot of prayer lists, too! Anyway, I hope you will find the support and love that you need. Bob | ||
| Bobj Registered user Username: Bobj Post Number: 440 Registered: 1-2006 |
Congratulations on your grand daughter!! | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 910 Registered: 5-2007 |
Diana , I have considered returning many times but end up talking myself out of it. Doing anything for the sake of comfort over conviction ( or lack of ) is usually a bad idea. Bob, The culture thing is a real facet in the big picture. I am used to a style of worship and respect that the SDA old school held. I used to wish they could spice it up some. But now that I have been places that have a more lively style and I guess it is a leap. As a kid , I was a Catholic and church was sublime, subdued, awe inspring. Then in SDA it was at least respectful and disciplined. The other aspect of Culture shock is the other way around. I have made the mistake a couple times now, revealing that I am former SDA. People don't know how to take that info. I might as well have said I was from Mars, "Nanu Nanu". I tried to fit in with a small country church recently. I guess my spaceship took up the parking lot. Southern folks tend to be polite but still not open to outsiders. especially in smaller churches. So I think , in the future I will do better to just leave the SDA factoids out of the conversation. Jim02 | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 10906 Registered: 12-2003 |
Oh Jim--I am sorry. I know, although I don't have personal experience, that the South is different from the West in terms of culture and "belonging". At least, on the surface the issues are different. I suspect that below the "niceness" and expectations, the real issues of friendship and isolation are pretty much similar... But you keep traveling in that spaceship! I know it's not always appropriate to blurt out the SDA "thing"...but as you get to know people, I think the info can begin to surface. It helps explain certain questions and discomforts and confusion...and it also gives you certain insights others may not see. Most important: trust God not grow you. Let Him take you where He wants to take you, in terms of understanding yourself and knowing what your life's "issues" are. This is one of the things God does when He makes Himself known. He teaches us the truth about ourselves...and then He sets about healing the cracks and broken places we've hidden deep inside. And He will also bring you to people who will nurture you in the Lord. I think that Mary (Helovesme2) might have some encouragement re: finding a church... Colleen | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 2344 Registered: 8-2004  |
Yes, finding a church takes time, prayer, and trust, yet it is doable! Sometimes our search seemed to go on forever, but we did finally find a place to settle in, where Grace alone, by Faith alone, in Jesus Christ alone is preached and lived - not perfectly of course, but then if it were perfect we'd have messed it up by showing up. Hang in there, God has not brought you this far to drop you and He is still working all things together for good in each of our lives! Blessings, Mary | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 911 Registered: 5-2007 |
Hi Colleen & Mary, I really do try to avoid stereotyping people. Nevertheless there are differences in ambient cultures from region to region. I grew up in KY ,lived in Loma Linda for two months as a kid, NY area for a few months, FL for 15 years and Ga for 25. FL was the most interesting when it came to meeting people from all over. In NY people had a street level behaviour that was wholly different than what you have in the south. Being from KY that was a new experience for me. IN NY you don't speak to strangers unless you are yelling at them. In the south, everyone says Hi, they act freindly, but usually, unless you are one of their own, they are slow to warm up to you beyond that Southern style of polite conversation. Now Florida was a melting pot and full of displaced and lonely people looking for new friends and social contacts. We had our local yocals, but we also had the snow birds. The place was populated with all classes of incomes. Dirt poor, Middle class and Wealthy. I found that the New Yorkers and those from Michigan were among the friendliest and easy to to get into interesting converstations. Whereas, the Southern folks tended to be less conversant and more prone to territorial attitudes. (exactly the opposite of what I expected) Down there in FL, people formed their own circles. The retirees had their Ballroom gatherings and activities, the kids hung out at the beach and the Local Yocals at the stock car race track,mud boggin and so on. So, it occurs to me , Churches are a lot like the society circles they mirror. Churches likely draw a paticular culture group. Not good or bad. It just is. So I think perhaps, I just have to keep looking and maybe I will find a place that fits. Jim | ||
| 8thday Registered user Username: 8thday Post Number: 1471 Registered: 11-2007  |
Hi Jim! So glad you dropped in to say hi! Congrats on the baby. That sounds fun!!! Babies always make life happier.. as long as you are not the one feeding at 2 a.m. ha. Even then, they do. I echo your sentiment about churches. We live in a really small town in Texas, and we cannot go to church here. Not only were we not raised in this town (first strike) and we don't fit the mold of the average church-goer - who in this town, sees is as social structure more than anything else it seems. We have just begun attending a new church and I find myself very reluctant to talk about our past. We have found most don't understand and it breeds suspicion in fearful people. I just put it in God's hands to use it if HE wills, and if not, I don't have to use it as part of my identity I share with others. I just love Jesus, want to worship Him, and serve others. I can't handle it being much more compliacted than that at this point. Praying you continue to be led and fed in the areas you need! Don't be a stranger! Sondra | ||
| Jrt Registered user Username: Jrt Post Number: 981 Registered: 10-2008 |
Hi Jim, I just wanted to add my congrats with everyone else's on the new baby in your family. What a wonderful thing! Great to see you again! Praying for you as you search for a community of believers to fellowship with. Blessings, Keri | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 912 Registered: 5-2007 |
Hi Sondra, I keep trying to come up with ideas and approaches to finding a place to worship. I don't fit them, they don't fit me. I make mistakes or they express no interests in me. Whatever the cause. The main thing I look at is do I make a connection, do I feel welcome, do I belong. More than that, do I experience God's presence. Ever since I left the SDA, I lost my essential connection to fellowship. I pray daily. But there is no place for me these days. Not so far, and I sometimes think maybe never will be. One of the pifalls of finding truth, is that it can leave you (church) homeless. Being able to relate and identify with new people in new churches is like starting one's life over again. I try to embrace the new places and ways. All of it is usually so unfamiliar that it seems alien. It takes time. I understand this. That is why I continue to study early church history. I want to know where God's church is. Jim | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 5967 Registered: 9-2006  |
Gods church is in you if you have been born again, not some physical building or organization. People in all these organizations are either wheat or tares one of the two. The tares will be separated from the wheat at harvest time and not until. | ||
| Bobj Registered user Username: Bobj Post Number: 441 Registered: 1-2006 |
Jim I bought 6-8 books on the ancient faith about a year ago, and four more in the last month. I am looking specifically at the Lord's Supper and Peter's authority. I must say I never understood Peter's authority in its historical context (the seat of Moses, the visier, etc) nor did I grasp what Catholics believe Jesus was trying to explain about His body and blood. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 10929 Registered: 12-2003 |
The idea that Christ was trying to tell the disciples that His actual body and blood—and indeed, His entire person, humanity and divinity—are present in the bread and the wine of communion is really not supported by Scripture. Hebrews 9:25-28 explains that Christ offered His body once for all, that if He hadn't, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world.
The Catholic mass, by saying the Person of Jesus is miraculously present in the bread and wine, even though the elements themselves are actually bread and wine, is just not supported biblically. If this were the case, He would be suffering anew in every act of communion taken by the communicants. Moreover, the Bible does not ever say the communion elements are actual "means" or carriers of grace. The grace of God is always described as being bestowed by God Himself directly to us sinners through the once-for-rall sacrifice of Jesus. Moreover, the only reference to the "seat of Moses" in the Bible is Matthew 23:2-3 where He says,
Jesus was saying the scribes and Pharisees were in the position of teaching the law to Israel, and Israel was to listen to their teaching. But the New Covenant gave us the fulfillment of the Law, and there is no modern "chair of Moses". Moreover, the idea that Moses had a "succession" from himself to Joshua to the Sanhedrin and then to Peter, upon whom it is claimed Christ built His church, is nowhere suggested. Moreover, the Bible is very clear who succeeds Moses and inherits the authority to administer God's word and will to the people. In Deuteronomy 18:15 Moses spoke these prophetic words to Israel before they marched into the Promised Land:
Peter is explicit that these words of Moses were fulfilled in Jesus in Acts 3:19-24:
Jesus, not Peter or any papal line, has taken the place of authority which Moses held as the representative of the Law. Furthermore, 2 Cor. 3 describes the difference between the old and new covenants and demonstrates the change of administration which was made from the Law of Moses to the fulfilled Law in the person of Christ:
The problem is that Catholic theology, much like Adventist theology, requires ongoing repentance and infusions of grace in order to be saved. They do not see a once-for-all, one-time sacrifice for salvation which anyone may inherit at the moment they place their faith in the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus. Moses has no successor, according to the Bible, except Jesus. He replaced Moses as the administrator and giver of "law". Under Moses, that law was the old covenant centered on the 10 Commandments and ratified by the blood of bulls and goats. The New Covenant was ushered in at the point of Jesus' death, when the veil in the temple was torn from top to bottom. After Jesus died and rose from death and ascended to the right hand of the Father, the Holy Spirit was poured out upon believers, and the New Covenant spread exponentially into the whole world. Jesus is the Lord and Head of the Church which is His Body. He is the prophet like Moses which God promised Israel before they entered the Promised Land. Colleen | ||
| Loneviking Registered user Username: Loneviking Post Number: 702 Registered: 7-2000 |
Colleen, a couple of corrections are needed in your post. You're mixing up a couple of views of the Eucharist. The first view is that of the Roman Catholic church where the priest who is offering the mass, according to RCC doctrine, has the power to change the bread and wine into the body and blood of Christ. That is called 'transubstantiation', and Protestants rightly object to this as a 're-sacrifice' of Christ that goes against the Scriptures you quoted. The other problem is the doctrine that upon taking their orders and vows, Priests undergo a change of character that allows them to change these elements, among other powers that are supposedly gifted upon them. But, there are other views besides the symbolic view of the communion elements. Lutherans, believe that Christs' presence is literally there in the elements (over, under, around and with) without the elements being changed. And there are Scriptural grounds for believing in this. Review again Matt. 26:26,28 This IS my body, this IS my blood. 1 Cor. 10:16 'The cup of blessing, which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?' Gods' word clearly teaches that those who misuse the communion elements sin not against bread and wine, but against Christ's body and blood: 1 Cor. 11:27,29 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. The text in 1 Cor. cannot be true if the elements are mere symbols. Further, the writings of all of the early church fathers, men such as Ireneus, Justin Martyr, John Crysostom all supported the view of the real presence. In fact, I would guess that Jim has been reading from these early church fathers. There are huge differences between the practices of the early Christian church and most evangelical churches today. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 5968 Registered: 9-2006 |
I thought there was something strange about Lutherans! Now I know what it is, they need a Pentecostal to teach them. They have been eating too many sour grapes! In taking up the elements of communion, it is entirely a spiritual matter, whether worthy or unworthy. There ain't nothing in the elements themselves but crackers and grape juice. That is a gross misunderstanding of 1 Cor. 10:16 'The cup of blessing, which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?' Without the blessing, it's just grape juice, and with the communion, its just a cracker, the unity in the Spirit is what activates the portaking of Christs blood and body. Just my two cents worth, which is worth exactly two cents, just as a cracker is worth exactly one cracker. River |
