| Author | Message | ||
| Bskillet Registered user Username: Bskillet Post Number: 665 Registered: 8-2008 |
My wife and I have been thinking of visiting churches in our area. And in the process, I have come to some interesting conclusions about church: First, some background. As some of you have no doubt noticed, I have some strong opinions about ecclesiology. More appropriately, I am not a fan of the institutionalistic view of the body of Christ, nor moreso of the clergy-laity division, which operates even in a Protestant world that claims to believe in the Priesthood of All Believers. The reason I am not a fan of the institution is that it is un-Biblical. But actually, that isn't the full reason. The reason I am not a fan of clergy-laity institution is, I believe, the same reason that the distinction is not provided for in the New Covenant: Namely, if you put a single guy in charge of all teaching and give him all authority and administration, you run a risk that pretty soon he's going to start watering down the good news of grace in order to guilt-trip people into doing what he wants for his own fleshly power, money, and ego. Also, he can be seen as a mediator between the congregation and God, and thus take the place of Christ in the lives of the church members. I'm not saying this always happens, but I think it is more common than a lot of people think. For instance, in the evangelical world it is not uncommon to hear about the Pastor as the congregation's covering, as if he has to cover them before God, becoming their mediator and thus taking Christ's place among His congregation. The result can be spiritual abuse and suffering as the Gospel is set aside in favor of institution-building, offering (profit) maximization, and the career goals of the Pastor. But, the Gospel is no one's career. The reason I'm saying this is that for a while I used my opinions on ecclesiology as a test, and thus would not attend a church that had a pastor (which is almost all of them except for the Plymouth Brethren and some house churches). Not too long ago I met with some people trying to start a house church, and the leaders, despite the fact that they shared my views on the modern role of the Pastor (actually, they were far more strident), were more authoritarian than probably 90% of Pastors. It was quite clear. They were in charge, and everyone had to submit to their self-appointed authority. On top of that, they had no concept of what grace and salvation is all about, and instead were focused entirely on works. Trying to have a pure Biblically ecclesiology like the first century church was simply another check-list of works that they intended to do to get God to approve of them. I had a check in my spirit during the one meeting my wife and I attended, and the following week I talked to a brother who attended, and he also confirmed that he had a check in his spirit, so we both concluded we should stay away. One of the things I discovered about this is that, no matter how strongly I or anyone else believes about certain ecclesiological ideas, they are simply no test of whether or not to fellowship with a group of brothers and sisters. The only test is God's test, the plumb-line of the Gospel: Does this church proclaim and rejoice unapologetically in the Gospel of God's unearnable esteem and love for us in Jesus Christ, or do they water down the Gospel and seek to place qualifications on God's grace in the name of morality, institutionalism, or anything else? Do they cling to and teach Jesus' finished work of reconciliation in His death and resurrection, or do they empty the Cross of its power by teaching a false gospel of moral improvement and human performance? This alone, it seems to me, is the standard of whether or not a group of believers constitutes a truly Biblical church. That said, I have been listening to sermons on websites of churches and have been very disturbed by what I hear. My wife and I thought about attending the Lutheran church up the road. So I sat and listend to a sermon on the internet. It was all about all the things we have to do, entirely guilt-based and shame-based. It made no mention of the Cross. For instance, that Pastor said that some people want their children to be raised with "Christian principles," and yet they want to sleep in on Sunday mornings. Now, it always seems self-serving when a Pastor who gets his income based on how many people attend his church, starts making claims about how people can't be close to God unless they sit still every Sunday and listen to him bloviate (and, by implication, agree with everything he says unquestioningly). But more troubling was the idea that you want your children to grow up with "Christian principles." Principles? Christianity is not "principles." Christianity is the knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ. I want my children to be raised to know Him, to be known by Him, and to live in Him. Even an atheist can have good "principles." So then I listened to a sermon from another church. The topic was "Enjoying Salvation," part 1 of a 5 part series. The sermon went on for 45 minutes, which is far too long to listen to any single person talk. But of course, I never listened to the whole thing. Why? Because the topic was "Enjoying Salvation," and yet the preacher went on for 27 minutes without a single mention of the person of Jesus Christ. What does he think salvation is about? Why does he think it is enjoyable? The joy of salvation is knowing Him for who He is, and being known by Him. So my point is, I'm not sure if I'll find any churches that can pass this plumb-line of the Gospel. This Sunday my wife and are probably going to attend a local Disciples of Christ church. We'll see how it goes.
(Message edited by bskillet on February 10, 2010) (Message edited by bskillet on February 10, 2010) | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 1104 Registered: 7-2004  |
Definitely the Gospel is the plumb-line to measure if a church is the right one for you. What an unfortunate Lutheran sermon you heard! That is definitely NOT Lutheran teaching, and our Lutheran church passes the Gospel plumb-line test which is exactly why we are there. Regarding your ecclesiology opinions, I do see it Biblical to have leadership, organization, and positions of authority. There were bishops, pastors, elders, and a church council with final authority in the New Testament. And what about Hebrews 13:17, "Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they keep watch over your souls as those who will give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with grief, for this would be unprofitable for you." I think it is Biblical for the authority to be spread out in an appropriate, balanced, and organized fashion rather than one person having complete control. Some churches give the pastor more control, and others give a board of elders more control, but most churches don't have the control and authority residing in a single person. | ||
| Bskillet Registered user Username: Bskillet Post Number: 669 Registered: 8-2008 |
It's not Luther's teaching, but it was a Lutheran teaching it. The midwest is, IMHO, very steeped in works righteousness. The words bishop (or overseer), elder, and pastor are all used interchangeably for the same office in the NT. See for instance Acts 20 where Paul refers to the elders (plural) of the church in Ephesus first as elders, then as bishops, before charging them with "shepherding" (the verb form of pastor, or literally "pastoring") the flock. There are several other places where the words are used interchangebly within the same passage. I agree there is a Biblical office of guidance for the local church, but it is a plurality of elders, not a separate one-man authority above the elders. The Acts 15 church council consisted of elders and the Apostles, the latter of whom we no longer have with us. It was an ad hoc gathering to settle a major issue, namely whether or not uncircumcised gentile could be allowed to join the church. It was not a continuing authority like a denominational headquarters. And even Paul felt free to, shall we say, play loose with its recommendations when he ministered among gentiles, giving them wider permission than the council's ruling. Raven, this does not mean that there is a clerical role separate from the plurality of elders. The issue isn't whether or not there is such a thing as Christian leadership. The issue is whether or not there is a single role above elders who is the one-man high authority over the church. The only Biblical leadership over a church given in the NT is a plurality of elders. Even the description in Heb. 13:17 of someone who watches over their souls is connotive of an overseer, meaning an elder. It is also connotive of a shepherd, which is also the role of elder. However, this is not to condemn modern Pastors with any sort of a broad brush. I do not doubt that many of them have a heart for God. Nor does it mean that one must have some first century structure to be a legitimate church. It is to say that I think one-man leadership creates a problem when that one man decides to go off on a tangent teaching anti-Gospel heresy for his own selfish purposes, and doesn't have a group of co-equal, spiritually mature leaders who have the shared authority to quickly put him in check. On the other hand, most pastors suffer from burnout, loneliness, and alienation from their congregation, which tells me that even if the Pastor is a true Jesus-follower, the role is to big for a single man. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 5985 Registered: 9-2006  |
I agree with Raven, I think there is evidence for Pastoral leadership and authority, such as the scripture Raven quoted, and the Bible is the final authority. Where I don't agree with the Pastoral authority is to be delivered from top down, but to act as a servant of all, I think that is what Brent is looking for, and justifiably, but rotsa ruck Brent, let me know if you find it, I have been looking for several years, and I ain't found zilch accept one little church. River | ||
| Jeremiah Registered user Username: Jeremiah Post Number: 450 Registered: 1-2004  |
My own experience with the priest at my Orthodox church, and his bishop, and the previous priest who is now in San Diego, has demonstrated that clergy can really be shepherds who do not rule from above but are the servants of all. I know not all bishops and priests demonstrate the same humility, love, and care. I just know there are quite a few, who also happen to have a historical line of ordination from the Apostles. Jeremiah | ||
| Bskillet Registered user Username: Bskillet Post Number: 670 Registered: 8-2008 |
Basically. Whether it's elders or a single guy, leadership in the body of Christ is not top-down, but walking-along-side. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 10932 Registered: 12-2003  |
Yes, I agree with the "walking along-side". Nevertheless, Ephesians 4 lists five (some say four) offices given to the church: apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers. (Some people say pastors and teachers are aspects of the same "office".) Also, the office of deacon was established in Acts 6 so the apostles/elders would not have to worry about "waiting tables" and distributing food to the poor but would be enabled to spend their time studying and teaching the gospel and the word of God. Paul is unswerving in 1 Timothy and Titus. These two men were Paul's proteges, and Timothy was in charge of the church at Ephesus, and Titus was dealing with the church in Crete. Paul tells them both that they are to rebuke and silence false teachers that arise within the church and not let them mislead the church. Paul was instructing these two men how to lead the church--and they were to exercise authority in teaching, exhorting, and rebuking. The problem is that many people are not submitting themselves to the word of God, allowing it to penetrate their lives in every way. When a pastor or teacher has an "agenda" instead of seeing himself as a shepherd and caretaker of the flock, people get hurt. Bskillet, I totally understand what you're facing. It's hard to find a healthy church. Nevertheless, we are commanded not to forsake assembling together, and we are to honor the pastors and teachers God establishes to edify the body. The key is personal submission to the Lord Jesus and His word. We must find congregations where the Word of God is respected as without error and the only rule of faith and practice, and we must also pray for the pastors and elders of our churches. They need our intercession. Colleen | ||
| Bskillet Registered user Username: Bskillet Post Number: 672 Registered: 8-2008 |
As I already pointed out, my study convinces me that in the Bible pastor is synonymous with elder (1 Pt. 5; Acts 20, where "shepherding" is literally "pastoring" in the original language, because pastor is literaly another English word for shepherd). A passage that is always rent out horribly of context in order to require Christians to attend churches regardless of whether or not the Gospel is taught. In the book of Hebrews, the audience were former Jews who had left the Old Covenant community of Judaism to join the New Covenant community of grace in Jesus Christ. But Christianity was a collegium illicitum --an unauthorized gathering--in the Roman empire. For a time, the Christians got by because Roman officials mistakenly took them for another sect of Judaism--a faith that was authorized. By the latter part of the first century, it was becoming clear that Christianity was not another Jewish sect, but its own separate faith. Therefore, its meetings were illegal and the Christians began to be persecuted by Rome. Faced with persecution, some of the former Jews were returning to Judaism and the synagogues where the Old Covenant of Law was taught, forsaking the congregation where the New Covenant of grace is taught. That is why the author tells them to not forsake our meetings. The problem is, in many parts of our country you will be hard-pressed to find a congregation that teaches the New Covenant of Grace, and instead they teach the Old Covenant idea of righteousness by Law. This is particularly true in the midwest where I live. Consequently, if no church can be found in one's area where the Gospel is taught, then attending a church where human performance and moralism are taught is to actually disobey Heb. 10:25: One would actually be abandoning our meetings (a gathering of those who believe in the New Covenant gospel of grace) for meetings with people who follow after human performance and works-righteousness. Thus, the only way one can obey the admonishment in Hebrews 10:25 is to stay home on Sunday or try to organize one's own fellowship or simply wait on God to put one together with true Gospel believers. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 5986 Registered: 9-2006 |
Quote: Thus, the only way one can obey the admonishment in Hebrews 10:25 is to stay home on Sunday or try to organize one's own fellowship or simply wait on God to put one together with true Gospel believers. Huh? There are elements of what a church does, and is, that cannot be carried out by staying home on Sunday, and where are you going to find these 'true gospel believers' such as yourself. Methinks you protestth too much brent, you go start a home church, acquire followers, it grows beyond the walls of your living room, so you go rent a building, and it'll end up looking just like the rest of them, then someone will disagree with you, claim you are a tyrant, and start their own home church, then.... Quote: A passage that is always rent out horribly of context in order to require Christians to attend churches regardless of whether or not the Gospel is taught. Huh? Is this going on in every church as you portray it? Hardly Brent! You,re getting off in understanding I think. There are so many people who try to obey the Bible in 'not forsaking' of ourselves together in a real honest effort to be pleasing to God, and not put themselves first. I find this in all grace based churches. These stick churches by the side of the road are only an indication that there is a body of Christ. I keep repeating myself, but here goes again. There are only two kinds found in the buildings, organizations, home churches, churches down by the riverside, Little brown church in the dell, little screen church on the computer, or wherever you may gather together as the bible says to do. There are the wheat and the tares, only two kinds, and wherever you gather, they will come, if you hide out in a house church to keep it 'pure' it won't be three days til a tare will show up, and it will start all over again. And I wouldn't be hard pressed to find a stick church that teaches the new covenant of graces neither, I can find one in five minutes. I just got a new song title out of this though. Looking for grace in all the wrong places' Looking for grace in all the faces' I find grace right here in the faces of my sisters and brothers, and boy do we ever cover the gamut of different organized religions! If we ain't a mixed bunch, I don't know what is! Maybe a mixed up bunch, but still a bunch.  I am beginning to see the message of the Holy Spirit in the poem 'The Dance Of Love' more and more each day. River River | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 5987 Registered: 9-2006 |
The Dance Of Love keeps going, in spite of our imperfections’ We Dance the Dance of Love, in spite of all Satan’s objections’ The Dance Of Love overcomes, even when we need corrections’ The Dance Of Love overrides, all our indirections’ The Dance Of Love abides, even in insurrections’ The Dance Of Love, binds the broken, wounded heart’ And leads us to reflections’ The Dance Of Love, flows out, in all of our directions’ The Dance Of Love, we rejoice’ In all of its inflections, and reflections’ The Dance of Love abides, in spite of indiscretions’ The Dance of Love we dance, in Jesus saving grace. The Dance Of Love refrain, brings with it jubilations’ Bout as far as I can go with that… Said the man in the movie 'The Cowboys' "I have the inclination, and the where-with-all, but unfortunately ladies, I do not have the time." | ||
| Bskillet Registered user Username: Bskillet Post Number: 673 Registered: 8-2008 |
River, you missed the context of that statement. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 5990 Registered: 9-2006 |
Oh. Sorry bud. I'm a little slow on the uptake this morning anyhow. | ||
| Doc Registered user Username: Doc Post Number: 524 Registered: 2-2003  |
Brent, is it? I thank you for you first post, which I actually found amazingly encouraging, strange as that may sound. I have believed in joint leadership for years, though I have not been able to find anywhere where it really works (here in Hungary). I am also pretty radical as far as ecclesiology is concerned, though perhaps more conservative in other areas of theology. You seem to me to be on the right track. Just keep on looking for that real fellowship! I am doing the same myself. Adrian | ||
| Bskillet Registered user Username: Bskillet Post Number: 678 Registered: 8-2008 |
Thank you, Doc. Nice to know someone else shares my concerns and doesn't reply with the standard evangelicam proof-texts about authority that don't answer the actual question of whose authority the Biblical author is referring to. You know, "Paul mentions Pastors [plural, btw] in Ephesians 4, so obviously Paul meant the exact same thing that we modern American evangelicals mean when we use the word Pastor to refer to guys like Rick Warren and Bill Hybels." I think I shall take a hiatus from this board, because it has changed over the past several months and I do not recognize it anymore. Seems to me it has become more and more common for some people to implicitly start applying the SDA "God's remnant church" perspective to modern American evangelicalism. Any concerns posted about what goes in evangelical churches is met with, "Do not forsake the assembling..." And the implicit assumption is that, whatever seems to be going on in evangelicalism, it is still the true faith and Christians must attend their local evangelical church. Like a dog to its vomit, you know... At least Michael Horton seems to be on the right track... | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 5993 Registered: 9-2006 |
Seems to me you got a thing going against people in general. Be careful you don't have to come round and eat your own vomit. Maybe its you that has changed, did you ever think of that? River | ||
| Animal Registered user Username: Animal Post Number: 720 Registered: 7-2008  |
The church is composed of people...so dont be searching for a "perfect church". You wont find one. God wants us to come to Him as we are. Also...not all church leaders are corrupt. Besides, our faith should be focused on Christ, not human authority. Trust God. Church fellowship is a true blessing. To deprive yourself of such sn experience when it is freely available to you, is simply unwise. .....Animal | ||
| Doc Registered user Username: Doc Post Number: 525 Registered: 2-2003 |
Brent, If you are still here. No, the word pastor in Ephesians 4 is not the same as the modern concept. Meeting together, however, is commanded, and very useful and blessed. I am trying to figure it out myself right now. I see that the church universal is in crisis right now, and there are big changes coming. Just don't give up on the Lord! Adrian | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 1632 Registered: 6-2006  |
Brent, I think it would be a great idea if you and your wife just try and visit some churches in your area. They're not evil, really! You won't know until you try though. You've got this whole scenario in your head about what is acceptable and what isn't, yet you haven't stated anything about actually going out and fellowshipping with other believers. Not all will be for you, but (call me an optimist) you might find one where you feel comfortable and a sense of belonging. There are blessings waiting for you out there if you would just let down your walls and give it a try. I realize that very few will be able to measure up to your standards. However if you think about it, there may be people out there who would appreciate knowing you and the blessings you can bring to the church. JMO, Leigh Anne | ||
| Bskillet Registered user Username: Bskillet Post Number: 679 Registered: 8-2008 |
River, I have nothing to say to you until you are ready to get off the high horse you seem to have put yourself on. The church has always been in crisis, and will always be so until all things are made new. Every generation has to contend for the faith once given for all, and wolves are always trying to come in. In some ages the battles are more intense, and I think we are in such an age now, but all things will be placed under the feet of Jesus Christ. My problem with the continual mis-quoting of Heb. 10:24-25 on this board is that there are some SDA lurkers who will read that and think, "Well, then, since I have to go to church somewhere, I might as well stay in the SDA one because at least I'm comfortable there." One of the central things that allowed me to leave Adventism was when I realized the Christian is within his rights before God to "forsake the assembling" when the Gospel is denied at such an assembling. Moreover, I had to learn that the Bible teaches that the Christian himself constitutes the church, so that no Christian has ever, in a Biblical meaning, gone to church. And I had to learn that every Christian is free, if he feels so impressed by the Spirit, to start a new congegration with other "lay" believers and partake of the bread and wine without a clerical "covering." Certainly
And on top of that, formers need time to heal and figure things out for themselves, and trying to throw them back into a church can seriously short-circuit that process. Especially since a lot of the false gospel taught in SDAism is echoed in a lot of evangelical circles, and until they have healed and come to a strong understanding of the Gospel, they run the risk of returning to the jail from whence they came, but simply with a different name. I have written an article on FB about the proof-text mis-quoting of Heb. 10:24-25. I would think that formers, of all people, would know better than to proof-text so irresponsibly. Thirdly, constructive criticism of the church, and contention within it, is and has been a normal and healthy component of the Christian experience for the entire 2,000 years of Christianity, and formers on this board should not be discouraged from discussing their concerns with the evangelical world at large. Truly I agree with my Reformed brothers and sisters that the true universal church is always being reformed by the Word of God. As for the role of the pastor, Paul makes clear in 1 Cor. 14:29 that whenever anyone presents any Word to the congregation, everyone (or at least every male) is to question him and his message in order to discern whether or not it is in keeping with the Gospel. Ironically the Puritans practiced exactly this: After the pastor preached, the men of the congregation would question and discern what was presented, often for hours after. Such questioning of an evangelical pastor is not allowed today. In fact, to do so is to be condemned as "unsubmitted." The result is that selfish men have free reign to spout lies from the pulpit. This of course doesn't always happen, but Christians would be wise to consider the implications of Paul's statements in 1 Cor. 14, especially since he says the are a direct command from the Lord Jesus Christ. While Christians are commanded to follow their leaders, the leaders themselves are always to be in submission to the congregation, and the Word. All Christians are commanded to submit to one another, just as our God Jesus Christ humbled Himself below all and for the good of all. Thank you so much for your kind words Leigh Anne. I agree that visiting other churches might be beneficial. As an aside, since you and Raven are Lutherans, you might be surprised to read what Luther wrote on the ideal Protestant ecclesiology, an ecclesiology he favored but that he admitted was not possible at his time because of the social and cultural constraints he faced. In many ways, Christianity is still centuries behind so much of what Luther understood, and I think a lot of those same social and cultural constraints remain. Until Christians are ready to take responsibility for their own feeding, and to admit they do not need anyone else (including the Pastor) to interpret the Word for them, but only the Holy Spirit, and until they are ready to admit that they themselves are also commanded to feed the sheep, the constraints will remain. (Message edited by bskillet on February 12, 2010) | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 5998 Registered: 9-2006 |
My high horse? | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 1633 Registered: 6-2006 |
Brent, A little background - Not that I need to prove anything, but I was raised in such a way that I don't look to the pastor as the final authority in my life. (In fact, at least in my circle,I don't know many who do). Our pastor gets up on Sunday, bible open, and preaches the gospel every week. Often times he shares some of the struggles he experiences. He ministers to people in our church, the sick, the old, happy or sad. In major decisions he doesn't do anything unless he gets the go-ahead from the counsel, who needs the go-ahead from the congregation. We all have a part in our church family. Along with that, I go to church to praise and worship God. I love singing along with other believers, studying scripture and spending time with my friends and family. Besides the gospel, our pastor emphasizes service. As Jesus taught the disciples to serve others in humility and love, we are encouraged to do the same. Even though I was raised in a Lutheran church, my allegiance is first and foremost to Jesus Christ. It's just like I live in California, but first I am an American. I guess what's important is, what kind of fruit is a church producing? Arrogance? Fear? Complacency? Or, is it possible for a church to produce well adjusted, gospel driven, joyful Christian believers? Most importantly, we should ask ourselves, what kind of fruit are we producing? What can we do to be a blessings to other believers (as well as non-believers)? FYI, You might be surprised to know, I don't look to Luther either. I absolutely agree and appreciate many of his writings, but he's certainly not my final authority either. Leigh Anne | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 5999 Registered: 9-2006 |
Giddy up old Fred, pull over the the corral fence so I can get off'en you. I cain't be riden no high horse here, I got to get down off here and return to my vomit. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 6000 Registered: 9-2006 |
For sale: One high horse, will trade for low mule of equal value. Call 555-hih-hors Leave message. | ||
| Bskillet Registered user Username: Bskillet Post Number: 680 Registered: 8-2008 |
I'll try not to hold that against you. Yeah, I know Lutherans don't treat him like SDA's treat the Old Hag. I just thought it was interesting. I also know that Lutherans are not, in a strict sense evangelicals, so a lot of what I say about what goes on in evangelical churches doesn't necessarily apply to them (Luther used the term to describe the Lutheran movement, but he meant it differently than it is applied today). The problems are particularly bad in some Charismatic circles, where private interpretation over-rides Scripture, so crazy ideas like the shepherding movement and the five-fold ministry result in rampant spiritual abuse. I know a lot of truly loving, Jesus-following Charismatics, mind you. But I also have a friend who went through terrible spiritual abuse for decades in a Charismatic church only to be freed from it by coming to an understanding of Biblical ecclesiology, servant leadership, and so on. I also think people need to be sensitive to geographic settings. People's experiences in California or elsewhere don't necessarily represent experiences in the Midwest, or vice versa. The Midwest is steeped in a culture of legalistic Puritanism and mouth-breathing fundamentalism. Having spoken to other formers who left Adventism while in the Midwest, they share my struggles with finding grace-teaching fellowship. When people quote Heb. 10:24-25 to those who are having trouble finding fellowship, it sounds to them like someone is saying they should be willing to compromise the Gospel for the sake of finding a pew to sit in. But at least here in Bill Hybels country we have plenty of mega-churches teaching good old fashioned word-faith prosperity theology. \sarcasm
Thank you River, and I apologize if I said anything to offend you. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 6001 Registered: 9-2006 |
I thought you said you didn't have anything else to say to me. Just kidding, its ok. I've had worse. It's just that you sounded over all like you have bitterness in you heart toward a whole lot of people. You guys, above all people, should be willing to try and understand where all these other people are coming from. For instance, I just got off the phone with a guy who called me and ask about the ten commandments, and why he did not find just ten, but many more commandments, I took him through the bible, explaining the old covenant and the new. It just takes time for someone to come to a knowledge of these things, mainly Gods time. This man was raised in church. If I was on some kind of high horse, I would have been gone from here long ago. If I was on some kind of high horse, I sure wouldn't have taken an hour while my supper got cold to talk to someone. There are people who need help, even in the evangelical churches. You guys who have been delivered out of a cult, and didn't do it by your own smarts neither, if it wasn't for the Holy Spirit we'd all be dog meat. Its ok to expound on the problems, but just remember that they were raised in their religion just as you were raised in yours. They teach tithe because they were taught tithes from a child. The man I talked too said he called and ask two people in the church how many commandments their were, and he said they both said ten. With an opening like that, its as easy as shooting quail off a fence post. Philp, as he was sent to the man on the chariot, found his opening to expound the Gospel. You guys can go tell a whole world about the new covenant. Its because of your being delivered out of Adventism that you even know about the new covenant. Go help them understand. You take Leigh Anne there, shoot, I'd drive 200 hundred mile to sit by her in her church. Why? Because I think highly of Lutheran doctrine and tradition? No, because she is my sister, I recognize her by the Spirit that is in her, and I want to know where she is coming from. You guys are better off than some, because you passed through the fire to the new covenant. Most of those evangelicals out there came to what they are teaching by birth, just as you came to Adventism by birth, if you don't feel like they deserve a break, then why should you get any? I ain't here on no high horse boy, I feel like most the time I am riding a hog with a side saddle and my feet are draggin' trying to understand what makes you tick. River P.S. One thing about it, you sure keep me prayed up so I guess I can't complain. | ||
| Bskillet Registered user Username: Bskillet Post Number: 681 Registered: 8-2008 |
More like frustration, because the kind of stuff I mentioned about those sermons I listened to, and also the stories I hear of spiritual abuse, really really tick me off and I get frustrated. It should be obvious for anyone whose heart is tuned to God's heart that these things are pure evil, plain and simple. When stuff like that happens, a lot of very innocent folks sitting in the pews somehow think that what some idiot is saying up front is really what God is like, so they live their whole lives in fear just like us when we were SDAs. And then people use that "do not forsake the assembling" proof-text to make them think they have no choice but to submit to it all. I think Colleen unintentially hit on a real hot-button with me and I over-reacted. Hahahaha!!! The Big Ten were just the intro. God would have kept going, it seems to me, but the Israelites begged Him to stop because they couldn't take it anymore. And some people think that it was somehow a glorious and wonderful experience for those folks. I suspect they probably wet themselves almost to a one. Now that I've said some nice things about Old Martin, I'd say he and the other reformers made a huge mistake by their misunderstandings of the Christian's relation to the Old Covenant Law. Admittedly the later Reformed voices were worse on this than Martin. | ||
| Bskillet Registered user Username: Bskillet Post Number: 682 Registered: 8-2008 |
I should also add that, right before leaving SDAism, I served as a church treasurer, and had a behind-the-scenes look at the machinery. Yuck. The entire thing was about how much money the church could bring in, and everything the pastor did was about profiteering. It convinced me that Christians in general need to think very hard about how they organize their fellowships. I'm not saying I'm certainly right in my opinions, nor that I have all the answers. I'm saying people need to take these issues more seriously, because they have a direct tie to things like spiritual abuse and the rise of false gospels. I wish I coudl say this is only the case in SDAism, but then I've heard similar stories from people in "mainstream" churches as well. One former pastor who was prominent in Charismatic circles, Darin Hufford, wrote about how in private his fellow pastors would measure how much "God showed up today" by how much money they got in offerings. So the more they beat people with shame and guilt, the more money they got: people were giving to buy God's favor. Those pastors concluded God really liked it when they beat people up. And a lot of people without a business background like mine cannot recognize the mercenary profiteering ethic behind the modern mega-church. Those Pastors who are like Bill Hybels mistake the Gospel for a career, and they think they're God's chosen CEO. I work in the financial industry, so I've seen first-hand the destructive power of greed. There is literally no end to the evil greed can bring. "Business principles" have no place in the body of Christ, plain and simple, and neither does pastoral career-ism (not speaking broadly of all pastors here). You want to be a pastor? Fine, but you shouldn't expect to make any real money at it. (Message edited by bskillet on February 12, 2010) | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 6002 Registered: 9-2006 |
Brent, I hear you. I will give you a real for instance. Very recently a man called me whom I know is on social security, his total budget (what he lives off of) is 700.00 a month. He had gotten taken in by a fleecer, I won't say the fleecers name, but you have heard of him (Just take my word for it). So the man explained that he had sent him five dollars, I explained who the fleecer was, and what his scam was, then what the Bible teaches to the best of my ability. There are some who just plain set out to fleece the sheep, there are others who teach whats not biblical simply because they were taught from birth the same thing. The most difficult thing I am having to learn is to take whats real with joy, and forgive what's not with compassion. I think this is THE most difficult thing to do. If we are unable to do that, the frustration will turn to bitterness I am afraid. One of the greatest joys of the formers life after leaving Adventism will be the day he comes to realize he can go to any Christian church and know that he is at home. No longer isolated or cut off, one with the Body, whether it be Leigh Annes Church, or Skeeters church, or any number of churches represented on this forum. Listen, I am far from being a baptist, but when I go back east to visit my brother, I attend his baptist church, and I am at home with the body. Remember that we don't have to feel frustrated at the task he sets us on. All we have to do is show up for work. It's all really His job. He's just letting us bake cookies with Him. Flour on our face, egg on the floor. "Look what I've done, Daddy." "Yes, Son, it's magnificent. Thank you for your help. I love you." A very wise Christian has taught me that, I am using some of her words, and some on mine here, its like that Christian and me have become sort of a dough mix. Father God, help us all to deal with our frustrations, help us to take what's real with joy, and to forgive whats not with compassion. We want to be your grown up children, yet there is not a day when we fail in some area. We go into your kitchen and create such a mess, but we love you all the same. River | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 7921 Registered: 3-2004  |
River, I have experienced the brother hood of visiting other churches then my own. I have said before that I did not know how large a family our awesome God has. I feel comfortable in my son's church, in the local Baptist, In Colleen's church, in my sister church in Corona and in Saddleback Church. I meet Christians where ever I go. The commom bond we have is Jesus Christ. Diana L |
