| Author | Message | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1855 Registered: 4-2000  |
Phil, Dr. Ronald Numbers, former professor of the history of medicine at Loma Linda University, is not currently pro-Adventist. After all, he is now an avowed agnostic. Official Adventism has treated him very unfairly and unkindly--notably the White Estate. The late Glenn Coon, Adventism's ABC revivalist, offered him several thousand dollars if he would not publish the book about Ellen White in 1976. In a phone conversation several years ago, Dr. Numbers mentioned to me that Elder Coon was his favorite uncle. The White Estate frantically tried to get his favorite uncle to influence him against publishing his work with Harper and Rowe. His excellent, factual book entitled "Prophetess of Health" created my first doubt about Seventh-day Adventism back in 1976. He is highly regarded among historians today. Moreover, he has authored nearly 20 historical books. Of course, I do not subscribe to his leaning toward evolution. Unfortunately, despite their common claim to being staunch creationists, Seventh-day Adventists are not true creationists. After all, evolutionists, communists, atheists, and the heathen agree with Adventism that human beings have no immaterial entity. Secular evolutionists certainly see no spirit (soul) entity in man, and they further agree with Adventism that human beings die just like animals. Thus, the SDA claim of being true creationists is yet another inconsistency in their belief system. Dennis Fischer | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 1955 Registered: 5-2007  |
Dennis, I am well aware of who Ron Numbers is and have a copy of "Prophetess of Health". I am just saying he didn't come off very well in the video. Fearless Phil | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1856 Registered: 4-2000 |
Phil, Admittedly, the video is very brief and incomplete. Dr. Numbers was not complimentary, however, in regard to Ellen White seeing no light in the dry cereal business. Imagine the huge profits to official Adventism (through the years) if Ellen White had not rejected the offer from Dr. John Kellogg. This is another action on the part of Ellen White that clearly reveals that she was merely a false prophetess. Dennis Fischer | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 1956 Registered: 5-2007 |
Dr. John Harvey Kellogg never owned or created the cereal company and didn't want his brother, William Keith, doing so. They were numerous court battles over this issue and John finally lost out. Because William insisted on running the company for a profit, he was kicked out of the SDA denomination. William Keith did more than his brother to stumble upon the process of creating flaked corn flakes and was the prime reason John lost out in the court battles. Fearless Phil | ||
| Nowisee Registered user Username: Nowisee Post Number: 247 Registered: 5-2009 |
After watching this on youtube, I noticed another one called "Ellen White's First Vision of Heaven" with 'Dr. Cindy'...check it out and you won't have any question about how we formers were indoctrinated. I couldn't watch it all. Not a Bible among them; each child has a copy of 'Early Writings'. Sorry I don't know (yet) how to put the link here--one day soon I will learn! | ||
| Nowisee Registered user Username: Nowisee Post Number: 248 Registered: 5-2009 |
PS River, I second the motion for you to come out of the cave! We love you! Keep challenging us, or I'll sic Dr. Cindy on you! | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 5877 Registered: 9-2006  |
I don't want yall to take ever take me wrong, I think former Adventist are some of the most wonderful people God has ever placed on his green earth. The love that God has given me for this people is beyond anything I could have ever imagined, and the love that I have received back is also beyond anything I could have ever conceived. Its just that when I speak under the anointing of the Holy Spirit, I never fail to run to my dark cave instead of running to the rock of my salvation. I don't know if I'll ever learn. I guess its a pity party to good to pass up, and after some days of sitting alone in my dark cave, feeling sorry for myself, the Lord comes along and says, "River, what you doing in that there cave?" I say, "Well..I spoke under your anointing and run in here to hide, and I am alone here." The Lord says, "The reason you are alone is because you're in a cave." But I know how to hold a pity party with all the trimmings, complete with a boat load of genuine oppression. River | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 7840 Registered: 3-2004  |
River, I know I how to hold a pity party with all the trimmings too. It gets tiresome after a while. I am glad you are back to join us. Diana L | ||
| Seekr777 Registered user Username: Seekr777 Post Number: 829 Registered: 1-2003  |
River, that same cave has been used by many "famous people" in years past. Many in more recent years use that "same" cave. | ||
| Jrt Registered user Username: Jrt Post Number: 957 Registered: 10-2008 |
River, You are not alone in pity parties. Sometimes, I think I am the "master" of hostesses with them. Forgive me brother, if I share something that may not be comfortable ... but it is something I'm learning ... Pity parties are "sin". I just realized a few months ago, as I was holding a pity party myself, that self-pity is a sin. This isn't to deny the fact that often times we experience oppression with pity parties. They tend to go hand in hand, but it doesn't deny the reality that self-pity is a sin. This is not meant to be unkind nor insensitive ... please hear that in my post ... you know I love you brother ... When we revel in self-pity, our focus is ourselves and our circumstances. God's Sovereignty and glory is lowered when we sit in self-pity. God is loving, kind and good, and nothing touches us that He is not aware of. God is Sovereign and nothing in our lives surprises Him. I am always amazed that Paul and the apostles were able to praise God after being whipped for spreading the gospel. In the past that example of joy in the midst of suffering was incomprehensible to me. Now I'm just getting glimpses of what it may mean. To count it all "joy" when .... When I count it all "joy" I find my focus is on the spiritual blessings God designs for me in difficult circumstances. This may not be for you, River, but maybe it is mostly me preaching to me ... and hopefully others can glean a blessing from what I'm saying ... I have found that when the enemy is on my tail - praising God genuinely for the blessings He has given me - sends the enemy packing for a time until the next round of warfare. In all ... God will glorify Himself - for He is totally good and kind and also totally Sovereign. Keri | ||
| 8thday Registered user Username: 8thday Post Number: 1439 Registered: 11-2007  |
In my last pity party in my own little cave in Texas... I discovered it was rooted in my pride - believing I deserved something better than what I had received, either from God or others.. groooooan. Not preachin' just confessin' sondra | ||
| Jrt Registered user Username: Jrt Post Number: 958 Registered: 10-2008 |
Oh, Sondra. I can SO relate. As the Holy Spirit gently reveals more and more of the roots of things in me - I realize pride is one of those sins in me that loves to hang on with tenacity. When I began my process out of Adventism, I asked the LORD to root out my pride - because I knew it was deeply grounded in the indoctrination of being the Remnant Church. I keep seeing pride pop up all around me. Yes, groooooan. So glad He forgives me and draws me close to Himself even when I sin. Keri | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 5878 Registered: 9-2006 |
No, I can't really put a finger on any scripture where it says that feeling sorry for yourself is a sin. It ain't the best thing one can do with ones time. If you could be more specific in what scripture you are referring to, then I might decide it is a sin. Although wallowing in self pity certainly might lead to a known sin. As far as spiritual caves go, there may be many reasons why a person might run to them that go as far back as childhood. Abuse, torture both mental or physical,being shamed, child rape, buckling under peer pressure, accident, incident, false imprisonment,or otherwise, unwittingly be seduced, extreme poverty, spiritual abuse, Shall I go on? It is certainly not a sin to be oppressed of the enemy of our souls, and, as you have experienced, when you step out and take a stand, you will be attacked, and you can take that to the bank. If anyone could come up with a scripture where it say its a sin to feel sorry for yourself, I certainly would like a look at it, right now I just come up empty on that one. Grieving in ones spirit while under attack, can most certainly be mistaken for feeling sorry for oneself. One thing these things hinder us from doing is praying for others, when we should be praying, or they need prayer. So no, I hear you what you're saying, and I certainly take no offense, I just haven't been able to make the connection. River | ||
| Jrt Registered user Username: Jrt Post Number: 960 Registered: 10-2008 |
If the shoe doesn't fit, don't wear it. Nope, can't think of a specific scripture that says directly "self-pity is a sin". Yet, I believe behind many behaviors such as self-pity are things that directly relate to sin. An example is what Sondra posted above - and I can attest I've been there myself. But again, I would say if the shoe doesn't fit, don't wear it. Keri | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 5879 Registered: 9-2006 |
Again, if pride is the root of the self pity, then pride is the sin. In other words self pity would be the payment received for the sin of pride, but not a sin in itself. I am not trying to wear the shoe, I'm just trying to determine if there is a shoe. Again, I am not trying to argue with you, you made the statement that self pity is a sin. I thought of the statement for several hours, and I just cannot come up with an answer,and I cannot come up with scriptural justification for the statement. I'm not saying its not in the bible either, I just can't come up with it. River | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 5880 Registered: 9-2006 |
Don't let me get to you Keri. I'm still desperately trying to figure out why certain bikes are called mountain bikes,can't you ride one on level ground? River | ||
| Bb Registered user Username: Bb Post Number: 622 Registered: 7-2004 |
I am just catching up on this thread! Very interesting stuff. Well, River, you do cut through the baloney quite well. It's true in my case that former adventists tend to run from book to book like you said. I think you are on to something. Maybe instead of being yanked out of a hellhole and saved from sin and death by the power of Jesus in our lives as you did, we are from an upbringing of prideful arrogance that we "HAVE THE TRUTH" and we must convince others to follow this "truth". We didn't know that we were sinking into the same hellhole, we were blind like the Pharisees. So we have a little seed planted that we might not have all the answers. We shake in our shoes while we buy a book that might go against what we believe. After getting up the nerve to read the book (or the website) we are shocked by the allegations!! So hungry for more proof, we read more and more. At first I was on the fence. It sounded like it made sense that egw was false. But then there were all those tapes that said "in the end they would try to deceive us", so it was a process and books and intellect were the way OUT. Now the way IN to Jesus is what you are on to, River. The Holy Spirit living in us! What a concept!! We have years and years of indoctrination to dispose of, and it is so wonderful that you know what a simple step it is to just allow the Holy Spirit to rule your life. But, the adventists talk about the Holy Spirit all the time! This causes one to be slow to learn what the Spirit really is when you have a different tape running through your head. We want to get it, we really do! We are just slow and dumb sometimes. I like the suggestions of just reading the Bible only for a period of time after leaving. I was very hooked on anti-ellen books for a while, but I think it was because I always doubt myself and I wonder if adventism brings that out in people? Anyway, I'm rambling...River, you don't offend me when you speak through the Spirit. I think it's awesome! | ||
| Jrt Registered user Username: Jrt Post Number: 961 Registered: 10-2008 |
River, You ask good questions ... and I don't have a ready answer for you. You go deeper to the root - as you should. I read awhile ago where self-pity was a sin. It would take me awhile to find that reference and see the reasoning and the scriptures used. Needless to say, I wrestle with this weakness of self-pity parties. I hold quite the party. A few months ago I came across some reading where self-pity was called a sin. The Holy Spirit convicted me of it and I repented. Do I still have that propensity to slip into self-pity? Yep. But I'm recognizing how "self-centered" it is when I slip into that "mode". Usually, I hold these parities in conjunction with real spiritual oppression and war fare going on and that makes for a very potent "cocktail" of darkness. I pointed it out only because for me the Holy Spirit pointed out TO ME that I was not trusting the Sovereignty of God to provide for my every need; ie. emotional, social, spiritual, and physical (you'll notice that I reference in my initial post that I was preaching to myself - even though I did address the post to you. Mainly to put my thoughts out there for others to look at and for you to check your own spirit.). So what is the sin behind self pity (using your frame of questioning)? Maybe it is different for each person. I don't want to diminish the need for compassion when people are going through tough times or under oppression. So I'm praying that I'm not misunderstood here. I find that the most comfort I receive now is when born-again Christians point me back to Jesus when my circumstances are difficult or I get in my "self-pity" mode. In Adventism, SDA's tend to ignore the hurting person or simply join them in their ashes of self-pity. Neither tended to be very helpful. I'm unlearning those forms of psuedo help and learning that the best help someone can have is either genuine physical help with their needs or pointing them to the ready spiritual power that is available to them or praying for them and listening. Don't know if any of this makes sense, but I'm trying ... Keri P.S. Just now an email came into my "in-box". It was from a husband of a friend of mine (never-been SDA's). He ordered some "cylinders" for my hatchback trunk that is broken. His email said that these "cylinders" and his subsequent installment of them was his wife and his belated Christmas gift to me. My trunk needs a lots of muscles to open with broken cylinders and my car is 17 years old with 305,000 miles on it. Now, I could be in my self-pity mode of unemployed, no money for repair, praying this Methusaleh car lasts until I can find a job, wondering why me - with other things. Or I go to God and say, "Bless me" I'm yours. No, God is not my Santa Clause and even if I'm in difficult streights His glory still should be praised - and I'm learning to praise Him in the difficult times and trust Him for my every need. This man and his wife exemplify to me - the body of Christ. Providing either for the physical needs of the body of Christ or the "spiritual" needs of prayer and pointing a hurting individual to Christ. Self-pity is never very fruitful. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 5883 Registered: 9-2006 |
Well Keri, you have that effect on me, you keep me thinking hard. My truck has 187000 miles on it and I thought it was a high miler.  Now I got something to be thankful for, it ain't near as ready for the junkyard as I thought it was. Don't really care much for caves, to dark and dreary in'em. Think I'll do my best to stay out for a while. River | ||
| Believer247 Registered user Username: Believer247 Post Number: 104 Registered: 3-2009 |
Yeah River, it's best to stay outta those caves! Doug Batchelor might be lurking in there! |
