| Author | Message | ||
| 8thday Registered user Username: 8thday Post Number: 1406 Registered: 11-2007  |
Researching another interesting movement and ran across this which had strange similarities to sda teachings through egw. Definitely a spiritual connection here, if nothing else, imo. Link at the bottom has the full article, plus an audio of two men discussing the modern movement that is tied to this woman's teaching. They have had a similar "coming out" experience as we have.
http://pjmiller.wordpress.com/2008/08/29/the-manifested-sons-of-god-heresy-and-the-new-apostolic-reformation/ | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 5833 Registered: 9-2006  |
Sondra, There is just about no end to these things out there. I think they get this idea from Ephesians 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; Ephesians 5:26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, Ephesians 5:27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. So these people set out to make it come true, like the Adventist, they put the control of Christs second coming back into the hands of dependency on man, so that he can act. Not what the bible teaches, but you can't fix stupid. Least that is what Tater Salad says.  When I first read the above scripture many years ago it scared me, because I knew I was by no means 'without spot or wrinkle'. further I looked on the church people and began to deduct the same thing. I still do not have a clear understanding of this bit of scripture, yet I am not ready to proof text myself out of salvation just yet. Personally, I have found it shocking enough to my system to have studied into Adventism, finding out there are former Adventist, without even looking at all the other isms and skisims out there. How do you do it? I have enough to last me a lifetime. You have got to have a cast iron stomach, want some Possum? I'll trade you some for some Texas Rattle Snake. I know youins' go out and supplement your income by ketching them snakes. River P.S. If Leigh Anne would lay off the M&Ms long enough to come stay on the forum, I would have someone to pick on besides you. But she picked another and pffffuuutt! She was gone. | ||
| Seekr777 Registered user Username: Seekr777 Post Number: 819 Registered: 1-2003  |
River in what you wrote above I don't see an answer to the text. Ephesians 5:26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, Ephesians 5:27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. I simply don't understand how to answer when this text is used to state or imply we and all God's people must be without blemish before He comes | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 5834 Registered: 9-2006 |
Well...first of all, who is our righteousness? Are we to muck around and perfect ourselves? If so, Jesus pretty much didn't need to do all that. So is the church running under Jesus righteousness, or its own righteousness? If its his righteousness we must have, then we are without spot or wrinkle. If its our righteousness we must have, then less than eight will be saved. maybe someone else has a better answer. River | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 3112 Registered: 10-2004  |
I think you've got it right, River. And at the marriage supper of the Lamb, we will be perfected, and without blemish, by His power. Jeremy | ||
| Seekr777 Registered user Username: Seekr777 Post Number: 820 Registered: 1-2003 |
I agree that it is ONLY through His power that we be saved, and through His blood that we can be accounted perfect. Does the, "that it should be holy and without blemish." mean by His blood and indwelling Spirit or will the Spirit actually enpower us to live a perfect life. Please I'm not trying to be difficult just trying to get things sorted out. The SDA belief that at the end we will live without an intercessor never seemed to make sense to me but it was what "she" said and I was often pointed back to this and other texts about His church being perfect. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 5835 Registered: 9-2006 |
Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness, we believe God, and it is accounted to us for righteousness. Abraham is the father of faith. Before Abraham carried out the sacrifice of his son, God stopped his hand and said, I will furnish the sacrifice, he did, he furnished his son, Jesus. See the picture in the story of Abraham and Isaac? We are under the umbrella of grace, or have no protection at all. Its full grace, or no grace at all. Adventism is so chock full of heresy, that it is shocking to the Christian system. When I preached to my church, I told them very little, but their mouths hung open in shock at the very little. Adventism is so twisted and so far beyond anything they, my church, has ever been taught, that it is almost beyond belief. I think that is why you are not very well understood, they can't wrap their mind around it, that anything sounding so insane could be taught to a people, and have people believe it. It may have sounded reasonable to you at one time, but to them it is way beyond reason. At least it seemed that way to me as I delved deeper and deeper into Adventism. You see, even though I am imperfect,(you wouldn't believe how imperfect) screwed up, I can raise my arms to God in praise of his glory without consciousness of any guilt. I dare not deny the cross. Jesus paid it all, gave his all, so that I can stand before him and say abba father. Hallelujah! Glory to God in the highest, I feel a preach coming on! You'll have to tear my dead hands loose from that cross,then I'll leave greasy motorcycle fingernails stuck to it and his blood will wash that clean. Jesus came to this earth to save my ungodly soul, and he knew me before I was a gleam in my fathers eye. He saw me before Abraham was borned, and predestined me to his saving blood before the earth was formed, and he knew everything about me, all my wanderings, all my muck ups,I may not look like much, but the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob has taught my hands to war. River | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 10801 Registered: 12-2003  |
Yes, River and Jeremy—that's it. When we are in Christ, our bodies are dead because of sin, but our spirits are alive because of righteousness (Romans 8:10). We will not be perfect until Jesus consummates His marriage with the church at the Marriage Supper of the Lamb, but we are counted perfect because we are completely covered with Jesus' own, alien-to-us righteousness. When the Father looks at us, He sees Jesus. We are hidden with Him in God. It is Jesus' personal righteousness that makes us spotless and perfect. Even before our bodies are glorified, Jesus' blood covers us, and we are counted and considered "spotless", united with Him. This is how Jesus prepares for Himself a spotless church without wrinkle or any other blemish. It is by His own sacrifice and and His selflessly covering us with His own blood. Colleen | ||
| Christo Registered user Username: Christo Post Number: 196 Registered: 2-2008 |
We are beheld as sons of God, no longer servants but friends. God cannot behold iniquity, and it is by our being washed by the blood of Jesus that he can behold us with such titles. Just as during the first passover the blood of the lamb at your door guaranteed the survival of the firstborn, despite what went on behind those closed doors, or within the closed doors of the mind of the inhabitants. So too, the blood of Jesus guarantees us eternal life, and life more abundantly. I always wondered why the Israelites were not transformed by such a miracle, but it was not mixed with faith, they probably saw their works as the determinant, not the mercy of God as the determinant. Passover was a shadow of things to come,and what came that night was the mercy of God. The shadows never have any power, then or now, only the substance which is Christ Jesus. We are transformed by the love, and mercy of God towards our undeserving selves, " How can God so love me, a terrible,terrible sinner." I realize the degree of Gods mercy by the degree I realize my own wretchedness. Then I see it is only by Gods mercy that he lives in me, and I can even bear to live with myself. The ensuing peace comes not because of myself, but despite myself, and through him. Thank you Jesus, Chris | ||
| Seekr777 Registered user Username: Seekr777 Post Number: 821 Registered: 1-2003 |
Thanks all, what you are saying is what God has been slowly unfolding to me over the past few years. What I at first understood with my "head" God has been infiltrating slowly into my inner being as He makes heart changes. It has become very apparent that the same language, but different perspectives, using the same words. It does make a person wonder.  Thank you Jesus for your assurance that it is finished and we are totally covered by your blood. | ||
| 8thday Registered user Username: 8thday Post Number: 1407 Registered: 11-2007 |
The Word says.. "When we see Him, we shall be like Him." I don't think that means one nano-second before that point. =) I do believe the world should see a difference in us - but seeking perfection is an impossible pursuit. If we attained it we would just fall back in pride in an instant anyway. In our flesh that is a catch-22. But in His presence, His glory is so great - we can be perfected and glorified, and we won't be lifted up in our own estimation because of the greatness of HIS Glory. Okay - so that's all my own theorizing. =) River, I didn't go looking for this stuff, I promise! ha. But I keep running into people with all sorts of bizarre ideas. Latest is a homeschool family we met who I think has been influenced by the above movement (apostolic reformation/manifest sons of God/latter rain..etc.. ) and also doesn't seem to believe we can sin anymore after we are saved (which I guess would make perfection easier to attain! lol.) That has led to some interesting discussions as well. I get tired of having to play heresy hunter, but it seems there is no end. Sondra | ||
| Christo Registered user Username: Christo Post Number: 197 Registered: 2-2008 |
I find it interesting how these groups work through the home school circuit. I have heard the Hebrew Roots movement is famous for this. There is minimal peer review, and iron has little ability to sharpen iron. For all the idealistic reasons to home school, if a child gets stuck with the wrong curriculum, or gullible parents, God help them. Chris | ||
| 8thday Registered user Username: 8thday Post Number: 1408 Registered: 11-2007 |
uh yeah.. my kids were some of those unfortunate ones - although we didn't get into the HRM through homeschooling, we found plenty of people who did because of a couple popular resources with a great deal of misinformation and misguided good intentions. Many home school families are fiercely independent, or they would not be doing it in the first place. Because of that you also find many with a weakness to do their own thing when it comes to faith as well. Most we know are well grounded in a church, but there is that propensity to blaze a trail on their own in this area too. | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 1936 Registered: 5-2007  |
Sondra, I just want to say; amen, to your theorizing and share a little of what I have experience on this topic. Years ago, we purchased our mobile home from a Christian family that home schooled all their kids, most of which were born in their home. Two of the daughters were born in what is now our kitchen. When they came for a visit awhile back I mentioned to one of the daughters that she was sitting in the spot where she was born. Anyway, there are now eleven children. Mostly all born at home, home school and attend a house church. And, they are into some strange theology which sounds like what you are talking about. Now, I am not against home births, home schooling and house churches. I was a leader in a house church myself for the better part of eleven or twelve years. Now, the Lord seems to moving me back to some form of 'regular church'. I do see the value of having "iron sharpen iron". Fearless Phil | ||
| Christo Registered user Username: Christo Post Number: 198 Registered: 2-2008 |
Quote... When we see Him, we shall be like him." I don't think that means one nano-second before that point =) I like that!!! Chris | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 5836 Registered: 9-2006 |
How about Coal clunking against Coal Phil? I think that is what happens when we get together, speaking of which, we got to get Bob and Jan and Gail, and maybe some others down here sometime in the early spring when the gorge gets safe enough for Gail to drive. My day room is still a perfect place to have fellowship and food. Maybe when Sondra comes out? Its when, not if Sondra. River | ||
| Lifeanew Registered user Username: Lifeanew Post Number: 231 Registered: 10-2007 |
Great topic, enjoy reading all your posts. Hope we can all get together in the spring. B&J | ||
| Christo Registered user Username: Christo Post Number: 199 Registered: 2-2008 |
Oh Yah, I forgot to mention that I was influenced by wwcg, my kids were home schooled for a couple of years, and they were born in my unibomber style shack up in the mountains. I too,was a gullible parent, but God helped us. Chris | ||
| 8thday Registered user Username: 8thday Post Number: 1410 Registered: 11-2007 |
Chris - former fellow freaks.. unite. ha. =) New forum FFF - I really will be praying about us coming up this Spring. Mountains will have to move - maybe not the Rockies, but some nearly as big. | ||
| Nowisee Registered user Username: Nowisee Post Number: 225 Registered: 5-2009 |
"Heresy Hunters"...I like that, Sondra. Not a pretty job, but when God calls you, He calls you! |
