| Author | Message | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 1930 Registered: 5-2007  |
Before joining this forum I had never heard the expression ‘cognitive dissonance’. To be sure I understand what this means I have just reviewed the definition. For several years we lived at Angwin near my grandparents on a twenty acre farm within sight of the Pacific Union College. Between us we had chickens, a milk cow and a heifer we raised for the meat. My classmates would argue that Ellen said we should be vegetarians. My family believed differently and since my grandparents knew Ellen personally, I believed them over what my friends said Ellen said. Talk about contradictory ideas. We ate eggs, milks products, chicken and the heifer. When we were sick with colds dad would give us kids apricot brandy and insist it was better and cheaper than any over the counter medication. We would get well but I always felt guilty for discovering I liked the alcoholic rush it provided. To this day, I keep brandy handy for such occasions but the guilt is long gone. Oh yes, the cow needed milking twice a day and you couldn’t skip the Sabbath. Since God created the cow, I couldn’t figure out why it needed milking. For a time dad worked on a dairy and it was ok for him to work and earn a living milking the cows twice a day. Why was some work ok? In the Old Testament I read, as a young kid, how the Israelites were commanded by God to kill all the Canaanites. But as a Adventist boy, I was taught that it was a sin to kill anyone, even in self defense. While I still love using the King James Bible, I now know the word ‘kill’ means ‘murder’ in modern English. Until learning that definition I had a lot of cognitive dissonance, especially when I joined the Marine Corps. My biggest issue of cognitive dissonance was on the topic of perfection. My Adventist teachers taught me that I must and could become perfect. Something I concluded I could never do. I had more, what turned out to be false, guilt over this issue than anything else. Since Adventist doctrine must be 'true’ I concluded I was sub-human and might as well resign myself to the fact I was headed for hell. Now, we come to the bread Dennis mentioned on another thread. Something I had never heard of until now. We ‘knew’ we were to let our bread cool off before eating it, but I had never heard of the ‘command’ to over bake it. Fearless Phil | ||
| Nowisee Registered user Username: Nowisee Post Number: 216 Registered: 5-2009 |
U-m-m, bread warm from the oven tastes so good! I remember having guilt feelings about that when I was first married and in my twenties! (What a crazy thing to have guilt over!!!) Phil, you're not by any chance related to Stanley Harris, one-time pastor of the Sonora,CA, church? | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 1931 Registered: 5-2007 |
Nowisee, No, I never heard of Stanley Harris. I pretty much know who all my cousins and uncles, etc. are and I don't know of anyone named Stanley in the Harris line. I do have a Stanley cousin with another last name living in Oregon. Fearless Phil | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 5808 Registered: 9-2006  |
I always gathered it meant that something sets off an inner conflict in this case. | ||
| 8thday Registered user Username: 8thday Post Number: 1392 Registered: 11-2007  |
rationalizing the irrational... =) To me it means thinking that mutually exclusive statements can both be held to be true. I never heard the term either till coming here, and sometimes wished there was a more blue-collar word for it. But I haven't been able to think of one. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 5810 Registered: 9-2006 |
How about 'Gone South'? | ||
| 8thday Registered user Username: 8thday Post Number: 1394 Registered: 11-2007 |
:D ha. Some of us were born there. ha. Nowhere to go but North. | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 1616 Registered: 6-2006  |
Sondra, I've had a horrible time trying to wrap my brain around the term, but your "rationalizing the irrational" makes the most sense to me. I'm sure we all do a little of that sometimes in our lives, but it would sure be awful to live with it on a daily basis!  Leigh Anne | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 10769 Registered: 12-2003  |
I think that's good, Sondra. And the term does refer to believing mutually exclusive ideas are both "facts" that do not disagree with each other. Another example of cognitive dissonance is the person abused by a parent, spouse, or other respected authority figure, but being unable to admit the destructiveness of the situation because he or she has been made to think that "love" involves the abuse. Or the wife whose husband is cheating on her, but he insists he loves only her, yada-yada, and has smooth alibis for the times he's not at home. There's evidence that the words are not describing reality, but the person wants to believe the words because her emotions are invested in the scoundrel. People are vulnerable to this sort of deception and the resulting internal cognitive dissonance when they believe, for whatever reason, that the lie is the truth, and when evidence (including pain and fear) suggests their "truth" is really a "lie", they refuse to "know" because to "know" would mean they'd have to change all their ideas about what is real, and their entire lives would change. Colleen | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 5812 Registered: 9-2006 |
Quote: “People are vulnerable to this sort of deception and the resulting internal cognitive dissonance when they believe, for whatever reason, that the lie is the truth, and when evidence (including pain and fear) suggests their "truth" is really a "lie", they refuse to "know" because to "know" would mean they'd have to change all their ideas about what is real, and their entire lives would change.” This is about the best explanation I have seen for all the proof texting, the rabbit holing, and the defaulting back to the Sabbath, which is really just another one liner religion. Finally I can put it into words and read it on paper! What makes us do that? It just makes no sense for any of us to do that, regardless of our roots or raising. It’s like we are traveling at speed and encounters a sign that reads, bridge out, ten miles, we ignore it, we ignore all the signs and eventually the sign reads bridge out, ten feet, we ignore that too, until we plunge head long over a chasm and to our death. | ||
| Freeatlast Registered user Username: Freeatlast Post Number: 623 Registered: 5-2002 |
Cognitive dissonance is a defense mechanism against reality too painful to bear. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 5814 Registered: 9-2006 |
Cognitive dissonance is a defense mechanism against fixing stupid if you ask me. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 10773 Registered: 12-2003 |
There are profound reasons Jesus said the Truth sets us free. He IS truth...and in Him we begin to see the truth about our lives. He never simply saves us and leaves us in our delusions. When Jesus breaks through our defenses and saves us, we begin to see a lot of things with new eyes. There is pain in being willing to know what God is showing us. We have to give up our fantasies and illusions. But there is finally real freedom. There is finally resolution. Along with the loss, there is deep healing and great relief. Jesus walks with us through our pain of discovery and knowing. It is more than worth it! I am in awe of Him. Colleen | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 10780 Registered: 12-2003 |
Speaking of cognitive dissonance...well, maybe that's the wrong phrase, but anyway... On Christmas Eve we had a houseful of people here: many from our FAF group and some family, and during dessert, we were going around the table in honor of Jesus' birthday and telling Him what we were thankful for. (We have a tradition that on a person's birthday, we go around the table and say something affirming, admiring, encouraging, etc to them, and Richard has carried that tradition over to Christmas Eve when we tell Jesus how we're thankful.) Well, we had gotten nearly around the table, and people were directly addressing Jesus with their thanks and praise, and the phone rang. It was a jarring noise in the middle of a really special moment, so I answered it. It was about 8:30 PM, and the call was an angry woman who chose that moment on Christmas Eve to ask for her name to be removed from the Proclamation mailing list...! I was so amazed...not only did I miss the last three people's praise, but I had to deal at that most tender moment with an angry woman who interrupted her own Christmas Eve to get rid of that irritant Proclamation. I realized she must have been in a pretty un-Christmas-y frame of mind that evening... Colleen | ||
| Foofighter Registered user Username: Foofighter Post Number: 99 Registered: 7-2005 |
Colleen, Regarding the caller, I can just imagine how justified and righteous she felt about her phone call, probably feeling that she was striking a blow at Satan...ugh!!!! As a convert, as a young adult, I was always surprised, and at times a bit shocked, at how many mean and nasty Adventists there were. It seemed odd, but I guess, that was one of several things that resulted in cognitive dissonance for me. Of course, I had no idea what to call it, or even begin to make sense of it all. It is amazing though, that someone would have the nerve to call someone's home on Christmas Eve. That is beyond rude! Carol | ||
| Doc Registered user Username: Doc Post Number: 501 Registered: 2-2003  |
Hope you all had a great time over Christmas. I certainly did. Carol, I think it is called being religious. It is not restricted to Adventism. There are a lot of mean and nasty Pentecostals here in Hungary too, and they do not even realise what they are like! On the positive side, I have just listened to a teaching from a Hungarian (Pentecostal - not that it matters) living and doing mission work in Germany, about how he dealt with and processed all the unjust things that happened to him while involved in the work of the Lord. And this from a Hungarian! Even the real born-again Christians here tend to react badly to these situations. This is just such a blessing to me, you probably can't even imagine. I am so excited about what God is doing at the moment! Broken relationships, which have been wrong for months, or even years, are suddenly being resolved, and not just mine! (I have to tell someone :-)) God bless, and y'all have a wonderful 2010. Adrian | ||
| Foofighter Registered user Username: Foofighter Post Number: 100 Registered: 7-2005 |
Doc, Yes, I'm sure that's true. I guess, for me, for the first 24 years of my life, I was around all different people of varying faiths, and I really didn't encounter people with the kind of attitudes and ungracious behavior that seemed to be way to common in Adventism. Perhaps the people I knew weren't "religious", but genuinely had the fruits of the Spirit. Glad to hear of the good things that you are experiencing. It is exciting to see God working in ours and others lives! | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 10782 Registered: 12-2003 |
Adrian, what awesome news! It is so reassuring to hear that God is blessing your work and revealing Himself in these ways...the spiritual drought won't last forever...and God restores the soul. Christmas here was also really good. We had some issues related to proximity to Adventism, but overall, the issues didn't destroy our joy or peace. The smell of turkey filled the house, and even the "What's that smell in here?" comment as the SDAs entered didn't ruin anything. And because Christmas was on Friday this year, there was a built-in limitation on how late the SDAs would stay. They arrived at 12:30, knowing we planned to eat at 2:00, and they announced they had to leave by 3:30. OK... But it was a good time, and Richard asked us all what OT prophecies we could think of that foretold Jesus. It was fun thinking through that one! The most determined SDAs didn't participate in that conversation, but they didn't get disruptive, either. God is gracious. He glorifies Himself! Colleen | ||
| Skeeter Registered user Username: Skeeter Post Number: 474 Registered: 12-2007 |
Colleen, That was so RUDE of that woman to call you with her rant on Christmas eve !!! Speaking of Proclamation... I received 2 issues this last time,, one under "Frances" and one "Francie"... so you might want to remove one or the other from the mailing list to save on postage... but the extra one I got will certainly be shared. :-) | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 5819 Registered: 9-2006 |
Speaking of EGW, I was watching the History channel last night (my favorite channel) and a program came on about the history of sex (if you can believe that) (sex sort of started at the beginning) It talked about the puritans who arrived in America, and their attitudes about it. There was a doctor back in the 1800’s (well known I guess) who thought that a woman was not to desire her husband, it sounded eerily reminiscent of the attitudes of EGW. EGW was so weird, I guess whoever she looked up to, and whatever they said, she attached it to herself, then attached that to God. Then I suppose the first thing you know she would come up with ‘God showed me’. EGW reminds me in ways of my mil, who always seemed to have respect of persons, her hero was a Dr. Bernard in Bakersfield, and her other heroes were their friends who were inheritors of See’s candy. When she spoke of then she always spoke in an attitude that kind of put a worship on the end of it, so it was always Dr. Bernard this and Sissy that, and it used to freak me out, I still get a sick feeling when I think of it. I think Ellen must have had her hero’s too, not the least of which seemed to be herself. She was some one weird woman and by the time she got old, that old picture really weirded me out. River | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 5820 Registered: 9-2006 |
As I was reading form the book of Ester I came to 13th verse of the 4th chapter, and as I read this, it seemed this verse just jumped out at me, and I began to think of the conflict between the families of the formers, as well as the conflict just described in this thread. The 13th and 14th verse goes like this: Esther 4:13 And Mordecai told them to answer Esther: "Do not think in your heart that you will escape in the king's palace any more than all the other Jews. Esther 4:14 "For if you remain completely silent at this time, relief and deliverance will arise for the Jews from another place, but you and your father's house will perish. Yet who knows whether you have come to the kingdom for such a time as this?" As I thought about this, I thought, oh how parallel to the situation many of the formers have in common with Ester. What I mean by this is this: No matter whether one stays silent in the presence of Adventist or not, they will not be spared if their heart truly belongs to the Lord, because on the one hand will be the need to tell about the wonderful works of Jesus in their life, and on the other hand will be the controversy it will raise in Adventists. If you try to stay silent, the need to tell the gospel will buffet you, and if you speak, the Adventist will buffet you. Whether Colleen had remained silent or not, God would have raised up someone to go and preach the gospel. Whether Dale Ratzlaff had stayed silent or not, someone would be sent to preach to Adventists. The Adventist will still attack, because it is not you they attack, but the gospel that lays within you. Now Ester, when she realized the truth of what Mordecai was telling her, said this, “I will go and speak, and if I perish, I perish.” I would imagine that Dale and Carolyn, Colleen and Richard reached that point at some time. I mention these names, because they are on the public roster anyhow, and what I say in using them as an example probably won’t make a difference, if it does they can tell me. I am not out to embarrass anyone. Now, if anyone bothered to look up the afore mentioned scripture, just fly right over to the 1st chapter of Romans and let listen in on Paul as he begins his address to the people: Romans 1:1 Paul, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated to the gospel of God Romans 1:2 which He promised before through His prophets in the Holy Scriptures, Romans 1:3 concerning His Son Jesus Christ our Lord, who was born of the seed of David according to the flesh, Romans 1:4 and declared to be the Son of God with power according to the Spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead. Romans 1:5 Through Him we have received grace and apostleship for obedience to the faith among all nations for His name, Romans 1:6 among whom you also are the called of Jesus Christ; Lets stop right there. Please bear with me. Paul was called to be an apostle, SEPERATED to the gospel of God, which God promised before hand by the prophets concerning Jesus. Through him received grace for obedience to the faith, and among you also, are the called of Christ, separated to the gospel of God. Among whom are me, and you, and Dale, and Colleen and all of us, who have been called out from Adventism, and other adverse situations to the gospel of Christ. God called ol’ Paul out by virtually knocking him off his pony, he called me out by putting me on the wagon, but however you are called out, you’re out, and whether we remain silent or not, won’t spare us from trepidation of soul. They (Adventist) are going to come at you anyhow in some form or another, and you are going to come at them in some form or another, whether it be by the smell of a turkey cooking, or whether it be by trying to fry your bacon down wind in a camp meeting you probably shouldn’t be attending in the first place, because sure as the world, the wind will change directions, and they are going to smell you. The minute you walk in to their house, or the minute they walk in to your house, they are going to smell the gospel on you, and you are going to smell like pig to them. Furthermore, you are going to wrinkle your called out nose up and declare in your heart that something smells like doo do, because Adventism stinks to high heaven! Like dogs, they sniff one anothers butt to see if your ok, and if your butt don’t smell like EGW, the whole pack of them will start snarling, just like the person who called Colleen on Christmas Eve. Now you can try to cover up your smell with any kind of perfume you please, go to their churches, their pot lucks and gobble their gray mass of vegetable goo, hoping against hope to find something that even resembles edible, or however the method you find to pet the snake, and you’re still going to smell like a called out one, and they are going to smell you coming from a mile away. When Colleen and them left California for the tour, they smelled them coming in Michigan. But understand what I am telling you, the gospel will be preached whether you do it or not, God will raise up someone else, and who knows whether you have been raised up for SUCH A TIME AS THIS. You say, “Well, my little bit don’t matter.” Ester was just a gal picked to pretty herself up for the king, but she was a Jew, and you are a Christian. Now I suspect God didn’t put this on my heart to write to the walls here. Hello walls! Yesterday it was on my heart to write, and again this morning as I read, and thought, and I just was so impelled to write, I could hardly wait until bible reading was finished. Just because you live in the kings house, which house you are, don’t mean you will be spared adversity, folks, it just goes with the territory! It came with the package. Jesus warned his disciples of the same thing, they tried to kill Paul, they hung Peter upside down. If you read Foxes Book Of Martyrs, you will read of a woman stripped and gutted in front of her sons, people tied in raw animal hides and the lions turned loose on them, people tortured, burned at the stake, mutilated, because of what the stench of the gospel is to the world. To us it is life, but to Adventist, the stench of the death they are heading for. I know some of you don’t like the way I go at it. “Oh please River, be kind and gentle to our sensitive ears, and understand where we are coming from.” I understand you a lot more than you think I do, and I am just getting wound up. River | ||
| 8thday Registered user Username: 8thday Post Number: 1400 Registered: 11-2007 |
We speak for the deliverance of their souls, not ours - yet even in this story is prayer, fasting, and amazing wisdom in the approach. Of which.. I have lacked all three. The attacks and abuse are much easier to withstand when you know you have spoken in God's will, time, and manner He wished, not in the flesh. I still have anger that flares up and ambushes me at times I wish it didn't. I am thankful though for God's patience and don't accept the condemnation the enemy would like to heap on me when I stumble. But yes - if we don't speak out - God will use someone else. Absolutely. I have decided this year to start keeping a journal of all God's mighty works. I want to praise Him for what He is doing so the rocks don't have to cry out on my behalf. Revelation says: Rev 12:11 And they have conquered him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, for they loved not their lives even unto death. I have squelched my testimony around sda's sometimes because I felt it was looked on with derision and ridicule. I can argue all day about their false teachings, but there is no way to argue with what God is doing in my life. That is my new strategy - and to most of all - pray and fast for them more than I ever have. River, thanks for being bold, and entertaining, and encouraging, all at the same time. =) Sondra | ||
| Skeeter Registered user Username: Skeeter Post Number: 475 Registered: 12-2007 |
"River, thanks for being bold, and entertaining, and encouraging, all at the same time. =) Sondra" DITTO !!!!!! Skeeter | ||
| Honestwitness Registered user Username: Honestwitness Post Number: 982 Registered: 7-2005  |
Thanks, River! Your words speak to my situatuon more than you know. | ||
| Nowisee Registered user Username: Nowisee Post Number: 224 Registered: 5-2009 |
River, thank you...your vivid illustrations never cease to teach me something that I need to have reinforced in my life...and who can resist learning when they are LOL? You hit the nail on the head, the bulls-eye, etc. using God's word and a whole lot of us will benefit... | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 5822 Registered: 9-2006 |
Sondra, Skeeter, Honestwitness, Nowisee, thank you,your kind words verify for me this was the prompting of the Holy Spirit, I know it when it happens, but it always helps when it is verified. If I get too vivid, just kick me in the can. (: River | ||
| Jrt Registered user Username: Jrt Post Number: 921 Registered: 10-2008 |
River, For me - your writing was convicting ... I ended up emailing someone who is an apologist of sorts - at least I emailed their staff. Just got a reply email today that my thoughts will be passed on to John Ankerberg for review. This is the gentleman that had Walter Martin on his show along with an official from the SDA Organization (the videos are on utube and exAdventist website). I asked the show to revisit Adventism and mentioned briefly what happened to me when I declared I was a Christian. Will see what happens. I would like to echo the others - thank you for your post and prompting. Keri | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 10788 Registered: 12-2003 |
River, thank you. I just read your post now. It's exactly right on. You're right; we must speak when God asks us to speak, and we must not back down when people get offended. Truth sets us free. Colleen |
