| Author | Message | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 5791 Registered: 9-2006  |
Hebrews 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul. Out of habit I guess, I most of the time use the old principal, for every action, there is an opposite re-action. Its just a basic principle of science. The opposite reaction the Hebrews 10:39 is to the losing of the soul. Adventists seem to be those who draw back to perdition, and who don’t believe to the saving of the soul. At exactly what point do they draw back to perdition, and to the loss of the soul? That depends on whether or not they ever do begin to believe to the saving of the soul. But while believing the investigative judgement, the full atonement, will not say they are saved, because all these points is not belief to the saving of the soul, but rather denial of what the word of God says and teaches. A drawing back, if you will to the loss of the soul. Why do I keep harping on this? Because I believe it is so important for us to come to a full realization, the predicament the Adventist is in. It is also critical that we believe the word of God as put fourth in scripture, It is our stability in a world gone amuck and the more we realize it to the fullest and believe it, the greater our faith in the Lord who saved us to the utmost. Corinthians II 2:17 For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ. Ever time you hear an Adventist open his mouth, it is nothing but corruption of the word of God, it just almost makes me barf! Hebrews 11:35 Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection: Hebrews 11:36 And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment: Hebrews 11:37 They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented; Our faith is important, it is extreme to the saving of the soul, and perhaps other souls, and we need faith to believe for that soul. Asurprise has witnessed to us many times, how Handmaiden was so dogged and determined that she would come into the Kingdom of God, she never quit and she would not turn loose. There is the story in the Old ATestament of the man who would not turn loose of the Angel of God until he blessed him. When we get disheartened for our relatives, husbands, wives, children, we need to latch on to God and refuse to turn loose until the person is in the Kingdom of God. But half the time we stand and pray, “Oh Gawd, I wisht yew would do sumpthin!” Those women of faith who refused to turn loose and had their dead returned to life were prayer warriors and faith believers in God. These women took their faith to the wall. There was a man in the Old Testament whom God notified to get his house in order, because he was going to die, and the man turned his face to the wall and squalled about the whole can of worms, and God gave him 15 more years. The Bible says in Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. Mark 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; Mark 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. Mark 16:19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God. Mark 16:20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen. Somebody says’ “Oh they added that to the Bible…bull pucky! The Bible teaches that those who do not believe are damned, in too many other places anyhow. We’ll have the signs following as soon as we start believing, teaching and preaching the word of God to them, and they got two choices, either believe to the saving of the soul, or disbelieve and scoff to the losing of their souls. Ain’t no middle ground here, nor no one liner religions where we can default to, and cover all that spouts empty words. If we ever get this out of our noodle that a person who believes the rot of Adventism is saved and just deceived we might get up enough faith to go to God for them in their behalf. That’s the kicker here, we believe they are ok, we just let them skate on into Hell with so much as a how do you do! We need to take a lesson from Handmaiden and just get bull dog, hang on, mean about it, and demand in the Spirit for the devil to take his stinking paws off our loved ones. Matthew 21:22 And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive. Mark 11:24 Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them. Mark 11:25 And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses. If you got a grudge against anyone that is holding up your prayer of faith, get rid of it, and let it go. “Well brother, I cain’t do nothing without the Holy Spirit.” Well, then get with him and ask him what to do, and how to pray. I better quit before I get started. River | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 840 Registered: 3-2009 |
Hebrews 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul. Does draw back mean that they once were saved (not into perdition), and now draw back into perdition? How can one, after being saved, draw back into perdition? Hec | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 5792 Registered: 9-2006 |
No, it means the unbelievers that draw back from the Gospel. The weren't saved in the first place. Look at the first words Hec, "But we (Believers) are not of those that draw back unto perdition. If you believe yourself saved and draw back when you hear the Gospel preached, then it might be advisable to examine yourself. Christians welcome the Gospel, the un-saved usually do not. Not of those that draw back unto perdition. Not of those, but of those that believe to the saving of the soul. That straighten it out for you Hec? River | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 1117 Registered: 7-2007 |
It's so sad and frustrating how my Adventist relatives (almost all of them) shy back from the light of the gospel and cling all the more tightly to the error of Adventism. I called one of my Adventist sisters and tried to read a couple verses out of Hebrews to her (Hebrews 6:19,20 where it says that Jesus has entered the Most Holy Place, though Ellen White says in "Early Writings" that He waited until 1844). She refused to hear - holding the phone away from her ear - until she could be sure she wouldn't hear me reading it. The curious thing is, she will let me email her back and forth about it. Maybe the verse: "faith comes by HEARING" (Romans 10:17) explains that. When I email and "paint her into a corner" theologically; she doesn't reply or simply says that we need to "agree to disagree." It would be so much easier to just say nothing to them, to just have pleasant visits - just talking about the weather, jobs, and other non-eternal stuff - to just have a good relationship with them in this life; but then what about the future life? Like River says, how can I be silent?! Almost all of my relatives are Adventist. One is agnostic and another Mormon. How can I just let them be doomed? I think the natural tendency of human beings is toward legalism - toward having something they have to do to be saved. ALL the false religions have that in common. The book of Mormom says "...it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do." (2 Nephi 25:23) When I told that to an Adventist acquaintance, a strange look passed over her face and she said that she had been taught that by her mother when she was growing up. In Christianity our salvation has been DONE. In ALL the false religions, it's DO and DON'T if you want to be saved. | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 841 Registered: 3-2009 |
Thank you, River, for clarifying the verse. At first, I understood "draw back" to mean like one who was a believer drawing back from what he already had. I can see what you mean, drawing back for the Gospel when it is presented to the unbeliever. Hec | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 5794 Registered: 9-2006 |
Basically it carrys the idea of rebel, or retreat into sin,both Jesus and Paul used this in more than one instance, Jesus said they would not come to him so that they may be saved and healed, Paul used the same expression in some of his writings, comparing those who refuse, to those who embrace the gospel. Ellen White refused to embrace the gospel to the point she and her clan were finally, after much consultation from the church, expelled from teaching there. So Adventism started out in its very infancy with rebellion against the gospel. Rebellion is about the same thing as witchcraft, so they left there and the door was open for deceit to take root. The gospel brings light, rebellion against it brings darkness. Or in other words, retreat back into darkness. They are already in the dark, yet when light comes near, like roaches, they scurry back to the dark. River | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 843 Registered: 3-2009 |
Hey River, Your comment reminds me of the Mexican song "La Cucaracha". It says "the roach cannot walk because it's missing the main leg" How appropriate that SDA cannot walk because is missing the main leg, the Gospel, Jesus. Hec | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 10747 Registered: 12-2003  |
River, thank you for your post. That Hebrews text is convicting. You are absolutely right about people approaching the light and drawing back...and that this reaction is a spiritual problem. I was talking last night with a friend from this forum, and she had a very good insight: the question, "Are Adventists saved?" is the wrong question. The real question is: "Why are you afraid to speak truth to the Adventist in your life?" The people who ask if Adventists are saved and rationalize why they probably are—those people are likely scared to confront their Adventist friends. Why? What are they scared of? Are they scared their SDA friends will get angry? Be defensive? Be hurt? Argue? Withdraw? Distance themselves? Christians are not generally afraid to speak the gospel to people they know are non-Christian. Further, they generally have no qualms about assuming a Jehovah's Witness or a Mormon need to be saved. The only reason I can think of that people rationalize that Adventists are likely "saved" is that they are afraid of losing the Adventists' "good graces". Yet, if we know that Adventism is a false gospel, then we must assume that those who identify with it are likely not saved. That is our only safe position. Otherwise we "write them a pass" and they may go on in darkness, appreciating our understanding and acceptance. It gives them a sense of security that we believe they're saved. And I know from experience that usually they are not. A former SDA we know who is a Bible translator for Wycliffe and works in Africa visited our FAF meeting recently. He told about being confronted while at Newbold College in the late 60s by some Jesus People who asked him if he knew Jesus. He said he could not answer because if he said "No," he felt he would be betraying Jesus. On the other hand, if he said "Yes," he knew he would be lying. That dilemma is, I believe, where a huge percentage of Adventists are. A saved person KNOWS he/she would not be lying to say they know Jesus. Only an unsaved person would be unable to say Yes. Saving faith brings assurance; the Spirit testifies with our spirit that we are sons of God (Romans 8:15-16). We have to see this as a spiritual issue; we have to pray for them, and we have to treat them as if they are not saved until there is true transformation in them. Colleen | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 5798 Registered: 9-2006 |
Corinthians II 2:17 For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ. Again, the writer uses opposites. Looking at opposites help us to see to shine the light of the gospel around us. For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God. Many which corrupt the word of God. Corrupt the word of God. The word of God. We see in Mark 16:20 the final thought, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. The thing I want to impress myself about that final thought is the confirmation as well as the opposite. Any time we begin to think God will confirm anything but his pure word, we have another think coming. No matter how bad we may want something, he will only confirm his word. So when we, through faith, begin to live and teach by his pure word, he will confirm his word, and we will then see the power of the Gospel in action, rather than face the silence of God. John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. John 12:49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. John 12:50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak. His words that he has spoken, will either confirm or deny what we teach and preach. We dare not corrupt the word of God, and do we ourselves dare confirm the corruption of the word? As we make our way around in the darkness of this present world, the only flashlight or lantern we have is the word of God, if the word of God is confirmed where we shine it, we get an amen, if we don’t we get an Oh me, Oh my. We start trying to shine our own word on the surroundings and it has no power to reveal and to drive back the darkness. When I was a little boy in the hills of Arkansas, late of an evening some days in the early fall, the men would gather up the dogs to go ‘ coon huntin’ and, much to my elation, they would permit me to go with them. My legs were short, but my heart was big, and I followed the men into the woods at night with nothing but one kerosene lantern. I would walk as fast as my short seven year old legs would carry me, because as long as I staid in the light of the lantern I could see, but when I lagged behind, I would begin to stumble and fall over tree roots and downed logs, and run into tree branches. Everyone walked in the light of the lantern as it lighted our way through the thick woods. At times I would fall hopelessly behind, and have to call my uncles to wait up. They would rag on me for falling behind, but the most important thing in my life at that time was that they waited to shine the light on my path. If they had not, I would have become hopelessly lost and tangled in the brush. I would breathe a sigh of relief when I would see that lantern way out ahead stop, and I knew they were waiting for me to catch up. People who, for whatever reason, have corrupted the word of God, are hopelessly lost and tangled in the cult doctrines of this world. When the word of God is corrupted, its light begins to disintegrate, and it begins to fail to give its intended light, and people begin to stumble and get entangled in what ever obstruction may be ahead, false doctrines, or even no doctrine, or they begin to grab hold of one scripture while ignoring all others, in other words a one liner gospel, Corruption by default. Corruption by default tries to take Gods word and use it against him to rise above him, demonstrating that they are above him by showing ‘respect’ to all, no matter what silly doctrine they adhere too, or no doctrine at all, raising human dignity above the dignity of God. We just witnessed that here on this forum. I am not saying we all are doctrinally correct one hundred percent of the time, but as of God, being born of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ in honesty, admitting that his integrity is above our own. A spiritual issue indeed. River | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 847 Registered: 3-2009 |
Maybe one of the reasons why we are afraid of talking to SDAs is that when we were SDAs we out-argued, out-discussed, pretty much any one with which we talked religion. We had our proof texts at the ready and most people could not proof their believes against our proof texts. So now we may thing that if we talk to SDAs they are going to come up with their arsenal and we are going to get confused, as we used to confused others. That being so, we would be strengthening their believes, supposing that we cannot proof our points and they can proof theirs. We should be able to stand firm in what we believe, but the tapes that for so many years played in our heads, start playing when we start discussing a topic with SDAs, and we end up helping then make their points in our heads. This makes it very difficult to talk to SDAs. I think it is easier to talk to Mormons and JWs, than to SDAs for that reason. hec | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 10750 Registered: 12-2003 |
Hec, I understand. In fact, I do believe that for some time it's better not to have those discussions with Adventists as one "comes out". Actually, however, a lot of Christians who've never been Adventists are afraid to speak to Adventists, wanting to believe they're actually saved. I tend to think this problem is worse among those who have never been SDA because they don't understand Adventist beliefs as they really are under the public veneer. They allow the Adventists' chagrin to intimidate them. Colleen | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 7798 Registered: 3-2004  |
I have a couple Christian friends who do not want to know what adventists believe. They think the sdas are good people and are Christians. They do not believe me even though I used to be sda. I do not push it on them, but I do stand up for what I say. Diana L | ||
| Nowisee Registered user Username: Nowisee Post Number: 208 Registered: 5-2009 |
Thank you River & Colleen. We so need to keep on praying for the Adventists in our lives (& in general) and not become discouraged. We really need to pray for each other to be wise & strong in God--the fear is very real--I honestly don't always understand the terrible strength of it. Well, I do intellectually, but it is so awfully bad sometimes and then I just berate myself for being so weak. Does that make sense to anyone? It's so hard because we already know the argument that our families & friends are going to come up with, because we used them ourselves, and were so proud and arrogant. And it is hard to be seen as the enemy when we've found the real Jesus for the first times in our lives! And, like Colleen mentioned, we don't always have the support of our Christian brothers and sisters. I'm just trying in my own mind to make some sense of this. I can't tell you enough, River, and the other never-beens here, how much your understanding and support means. God has made you to care. You've really helped me tonight to keep going, no matter what. God bless you. |
