| Author | Message | ||
| Max |
THEY'RE ALL ABOUT CHRIST ON THE CROSS! They don't testify to us; they testify to Christ on the cross. They don't witness to us; they witness to the cross of Christ. Nor are our "words of witness" any less "filthy rags" righteousness than our actions are! | ||
| Max |
And anyone who says we should hide our "filthy rags" good works because they don't testify of Jesus is gravely in violation of Holy Scripture. For Jesus said, "You are the light of the world. A city on a hill cannot be hidden. Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put in on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the hosue. In the same say, let your light shine before men, that they may SEE YOUR GOOD DEEDS AND PRAISE" -- not you, but -- "YOUR FATHER IN HEAVEN!" NIV Matthew 5:14-16. | ||
| Max |
Only those who are dependent upon the obedience of the One who alone is sinless can by faith walk the Walk. Or talk the Talk for that matter. | ||
| Max |
Anyone who asserts that the Spirit-filled person does not manifest by their holy life is standing in grave violation of Scripture in many places. Here's one: NIV 2 Peter 2:11-12. Dear friends [Gentile Christians living in what is today Turkey], I urge you ... to abstain from sinful desires, which war against your soul. LIVE SUCH GOOD LIVES among the pagans that, though they accuse you of donig wrong, THEY MAY SEE YOUR GOOD DEEDS AND GLORIFY" -- not you, but -- "God on the day he visits us." The NIV text note to "the day he visits us" says this: "Perhaps the day of judgment and ensuing punishment, or possibly the day when god visits a person with salvation. The believer's GOOD LIFE MAY THEN INFLUENCE THE UNBELIEVER TO REPENT AND BELIEVE." A street-language paraphrase, then, would say this: "Don't just talk the Talk, but walk the Walk among non-Christians that, though they accuse you of doing wrong, THEY MAY SEE YOUR GOOD DEEDS AND GLORIFY" -- not you, but -- "God on when your good lives influence them to repent and believe." Both the "words" witness AND the "deeds" witness testify of the cross. For true believers they NEVER testify of ourselves. Blessings to one and all, Max of the Cross | ||
| Cindy |
Dear Max, Hi!:-)) I wish I had the exact quote--perhaps someone else has it?--but I heard that someone had written an editorial in a magazine or newspaper last week almost praising Jesse Jackson and his admitted extramarital affair! This person said that Jesse's failure just made him more human and easier to relate to than someone who lived without any moral failures. EXCUSE ME??? This is ridiculous! I realize that we ALL sin, and fall short of the Glory of God, with our pride issues, bitterness, etc.... but this sin of Jesse Jackson's is still a TRAGEDY for ALL involved--his wife and family, the other woman, the baby born out of wed-lock, and Jackson's followers and constituents. Emotional pain is involved in infidelity no matter what... I still say this is not a matter of Jackson's SALVATION!! Of course, he can be forgiven and reassured of his secure place as a child of God because of His belief in Christ alone! And yet, I think it DOES cause disgrace on the wonderful name of JESUS! To take it lightly is to take the wonderful sacrifice of Christ for us lightly... I pray so much that we will have agreement here that our witness of "letting our light shine" will always steer completly clear of legalism! Our salvation is ONLY because of the CROSS OF CHRIST!!! Can we promote a grateful RESPONSE without being back in the "works" camp? A RESPONSE ONLY BECAUSE WE HAVE ALREADY BEEN GRANTED THAT ACCESS TO HEAVENLY PLACES--SEATED WITH CHRIST!! Our standing, our ground of assurance, is still only in what Christ DID with FINALITY on the Cross! Grace always, Cindy | ||
| Valm |
Cindy, My thoughts exactly. Valerie | ||
| Valm |
This wonderful text was part of the Biblical readings in our service today: 1Corinthians 15:9-11For I am the least of the apostles and do not even deserve to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me was not without effect. No, I worked harder than all of them--yet not I,BUT THE GRACE OF GOD THAT WAS WITH ME. Whether, then, it was I or they, this is what we preach, and this is what you believed. My thoughts: Even our witness to Jesus and our faith in him are works. Paul attributes his work (preaching) not of himself but of the GRACE OF GOD. | ||
| Max |
The bottom went out from under me when Jessie Jackson admitted to his wrong-doing. All I could think about was his years-long campaign in the black community preaching morality and against "babies having babies." Of course his lapse -- which included long-term hypocritical lying and who-knows-what else -- has no effect whatsoever on the presence of absence of his salvation. That was determined before the foundation of the earth was laid. Joy and blessings to one and all, Max of the Cross | ||
| Valm |
Another thought. I am not much of a preacher. I do a relatively good job at motivational speeches however. And I have some Martha type skills. I make a great pot of soup for the sick. And I lick stamps on cards of encouragement pretty well. I can play a hymn well enough to play the organ in our tiny church. And so on. I could use all of these to promote self or give them to the GLORY OF GOD. I am much happier in the GLORY OF GOD camp. It isn't what my skills are however, it is the opportunity to use them in God's work that matters. I give these things right back from whence they came. Wouldn't it be a loss if the only ones who could rightfully participate in God's work are the one's who can articulate the Gospel well? God gives us the opportunity to be a part of his work in ways which are unique to us. | ||
| Max |
I would even go so far as to say that the Walk IS the Talk, and the Talk IS the Walk. And any distinction between the two is purely a physical-or-logical, never a spiritual, one. In God's sight: WORDS = ACTIONS and ACTIONS = WORDS If anything, "Actions speak louder than words," as the old saying goes. Otherwise we're dealing with sheer hypocrisy which Bonhoeffer continues to call "cheap grace" and Jude calls "changed" grace. | ||
| Max |
Are we going to accuse Christ of "falling back into teaching legalism" because he spoke the following words? "You are the light of the world. A city on a hill cannot be hidden. Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put in on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the hosue. In the same say, let your light shine before men, that they may SEE YOUR GOOD DEEDS AND PRAISE" -- not you, but -- "YOUR FATHER IN HEAVEN!" NIV Matthew 5:14-16. It's a question we formers NEED to consider before plunging off into the deep end of espousing a philosophy of lawlessness. BEWARE: GOD IS NEVER MOCKED! We may think to mock Him, but in the end we would only be mocking ourselves. Max of the Cross | ||
| Denisegilmore |
In AA there is a saying that goes something like this: "Yeah, they can talk the talk, but can they walk the walk?" or "Yeah they talk a good talk but look at their walk." I learned that years ago while attending 3 AA meetings per day. So that phrase is deeply instilled into me and I'll never forget it either. God Bless, DtB P.S. By God's Grace I'm talking and walking sober. :)) | ||
| Patti |
I would even go so far as to say that the Walk IS the Talk, and the Talk IS the Walk. Are you sure you don't want to revise those words, Max? You are TOTALLY blurring any distinction between grace and works. between our testimony to the saving work of Jesus Christ and our filthy rags righteousness. The walk is NOT the Talk, is NEVER the Talk, because the walk is always corrupt and sinful, and the Talk is the Gospel of Jesus Christ. And you have brought back your "cheap grace" notion. I am not sure how you can even use those two words in the same sentence. I will say one last time and hope that somebody, somewhere is listening: GRACE CANNOT BE CHEAP, because GRACE IS AN ATTRIBUTE OF GOD, NOT OF US. God's grace is priceless, but to us hopeless sinners, it is free. I am almost complete in my frustration now. And so it is time for me to get away from all religious talk for awhile. Max brings us back around to equating our works to the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and no one seems to mind. I need to go somewhere where folks not only LIKE to talk about Jesus Christ only, but where they CANNOT HELP but talk about His wonderful saving act for mankind. I NEED TO HEAR THE GOSPEL AS MUCH AS TO TELL IT. Is there such a place? I wonder. Nevertheless, may the Lord lead us all daily into a greater appreciation of the fullness of His salvation in Jesus Christ. Grace and peace, And apologies for my arrogance, as several of you have pointed out. Patti | ||
| Max |
Anyone who claims that we cannot ìwalk the Walkî is standing in serious violation of a great many Scriptures. Here are only a few: John 8:12ÝWhen Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never WALK in darkness, but will have the light of life." John 11:9ÝJesus answered, "Are there not twelve hours of daylight? A man who WALKS by day will not stumble, for he sees by this world's light. John 11:10ÝIt is when he WALKS by night that he stumbles, for he has no light." John 12:35ÝÝThen Jesus told them, "You are going to have the light just a little while longer. WALK while you have the light, before darkness overtakes you. The man who WALKS in the dark does not know where he is going. Romans 4:12Ý[Abraham] is also the father of the circumcised who not only are circumcised but who also WALK in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised. Colossians 3:7ÝYou USED to WALK in these ways, in the life you ONCE lived. 1 John 1:6ÝIf we claim to have fellowship with him yet WALK in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth. 1 John 1:7ÝBut if we WALK in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin. 1 John 2:6Ý1 Whoever claims to live in him must WALK as Jesus did. 1 John 2:11ÝBut whoever hates his brother is in the darkness and WALKS around in the darkness; he does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded him. 2 John 1:4Ý2 It has given me great joy to find some of your children WALKING in the truth, just as the Father commanded us. 2 John 1:6Ý2 And this is love: that we WALK in obedience to his commands. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you WALK in love. 3 John 1:3Ý3 It gave me great joy to have some brothers come and tell about your faithfulness to the truth and how you continue to WALK in the truth. 3 John 1:4Ý3 I have no greater joy than to hear that my children are WALKING in the truth. | ||
| Valm |
Patti, I would encourage you to view your "talk" of the Gospel message as infected with the human condition as the "walks" of the Gospel message other people find so important. It might help you to see that there is no difference in witnessing by our words or by our actions. Even our faith is infected with the human condition. If I could only have the faith of a mustard seed!!!! I would encourage you also to respond directly to all the scriptural evidence which has been brought before you that attests to the importance of our behavior, works, deeds, whatever word you care to use. Also to the scriptures which point to the actions of the Holy Spirit on changing our lives. Hang in there Patti. I have been very frustrated with you too. But at the same time I am learning a whole lot more than you or I may realize through this. Grace and Peace to you also. Valerie | ||
| Max |
One can say the Walk is ALWAYS corrupt and sinful, but in so saying one would ALWAYS be in violation of the Scriptures quoted above. One can also say the Talk is never corrupt and sinful, but in so saying one would ALWAYS be covering for the iniquity of all of the Simon Sorcerers of the world. | ||
| Max |
Patti, As far as I am concerned you will always be welcome here. We disagree, but that doesn't mean I don't think of you as saved. I do. I cannot honestly say that in and of myself I love you with agape love, for I am too sinful. But I can honestly say that in and of Christ I can and do love you with agape love. For loving people with agape love is the cross I carry. Max of the Cross | ||
| Cindy |
Max and all... Hello again! :-)) I do think we have to keep DISTINCT the message of "Christ Crucified For Us!" as our only hope of salvation! This "gospel talk" must be kept supreme and distinct from our imperfect "walk"... I would agree the walk goes with the talk; and yet... This teaching and preaching of CHRIST'S SUBSTITUTIONARY ATONEMENT IN OUR PLACE is all-important! The CROSS is really the only thing that distinguishes Christianity from the other religions which also teach "transformation", and character renewal, and morality. Just today I clipped out an ad in the Portland "Oregonian" newspaper advertising the BAHA'I religion. Along with an 800 telephone number and a web address for information, it also said: "IS NOT THE OBJECT OF EVERY REVELATION TO EFFECT A TRANSFORMATION IN THE WHOLE CHARACTER OF MANKIND...ITS' INNER LIFE AND EXTERNAL CONDITIONS?" (Baha'u'llah) Something to think about... Let's not be afraid that if we preach the Cross we may be misunderstood as preaching "lawlessness"!! The HOLY SPIRIT, with HIS WISDOM and POWER, is present when the Cross is proclaimed. Grace always, Cindy | ||
| Max |
Cindy and all, ^^This "gospel talk" must be kept supreme and distinct from our imperfect "walk"...^^ Couldn't the believer say with equal truth that ^^this "gospel walk" must be kept supreme and distinct from our imperfect "talk"?^^ And if not, why not? What scriptural support is there for saying that "gospel talk" by faith alone is superior to "gospel walk" by faith alone? | ||
| Max |
^^The HOLY SPIRIT, with HIS WISDOM and POWER, is present when the Cross is proclaimed.^^ Isn't this exactly what Simon Magus the Samaritan Sorcerer was thinking (Acts 8) when he "saw that the Spirit was given at the laying on of the apostles' hands"? For he "offered the money and said, 'Give me also this ability so that everyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit.' Peter answered: "To hell [Gr. apoleian = Eng. Apollyon = "bottomless pit" in Revelation] with you and your money! You think you can buy the gift of God with money? You have no part of share in this ministry, because your heart is not right before God. REPENT of this wickedness and PRAY to the Lord. Perhaps he will forgive you for having such a thought in your heart. For I see that you are full of BITTERNESS and captive to SIN." Would you say then, Cindy or anyone, that if Peter had laid hands on Simon Magus and allowed him to PROCLAIM the gospel and lay his hands on people in the name of Jesus, that ^^The HOLY SPIRIT, with HIS WISDOM and POWER, would be present?^^ I think not. It's true that "Simon answered, 'Pray to the Lord for me so that nothing you have said may happen to me." But this does not strike me as a prayer of repentance, obedience and submission to the will of God. This sounds more like the pleadings of a sociopath trying to avoid punishment. Scripture from that point on is silent regarding Simon Sorcerer. But that in itself is the testimony of silence that he did NOT become one of the earliest genuine Christians. I'm content to leave the judgment of his eternal salvation to God. Blessings to you Cindy. I know your heart is right. Max of the Cross |
