| Author | Message | ||
| Max |
Any idea that the gospel is about "wonderfully changed lives" is unscriptural. The scriptural idea: The gospel is the good news that the Christ who hung on the cross "wonderfully changes lives" in both word and deed. There is a Grand Canyon of difference between the two concepts. Anybody who witnesses to Christ hanging on the cross whose life has NOT been changed is witnessing falsely. There is no New Testament example of a person truly witnessing for Christ whose life had not been changed. The life of the publican in the temple with the boasting Pharisee had been changed. Else he COULD NOT have unhypocritically smote himself and prayed, "God, be merciful to me a sinner." The life of the thief on the cross was changed BEFORE he asked Christ to remember him. Proof: He had been reviling Christ along with his fellow robber on the third cross. WHAT made him STOP reviling and START praying and worshiping and rebuking his fellow thief? What indeed if not the gospel of Christ hanging there innocent on the cross next to his? Therefore, it was Christ on the cross indeed who changed his life and brought on the praying, worshiping and rebuking of sin. Was Saul/Paul's life changed? Did he go from murdering Christians to saving non-Christians? Was Peter's life changed? Did he go from denying his Lord to weeping bitterly? Were the life of the "sons of thunder" -- James and John -- go from uncontrolable, patho- logical anger to the exact opposite? Judas was the only one of the Twelve whose life was NOT transformed by the blood. Christ Jesus, make or remake us so that our lights so shine before other people -- in the super- market or wherever -- so that they may see our "filthy rags" good deeds and praise -- not us, but -- our Father in heaven. Max of the Cross | ||
| Lori |
That's so true Valerie...what you said about not needing acceptance from other people because you have acceptance from God. I once heard someone put it like this: "It doesn't matter what other people think of me-because if other people knew EVERYTHING about me they wouldn't accept me anyway". Lori | ||
| Valm |
Lori, Well I have enough rough edges to make that statement true! It is wonderful to have a God who meets us and accepts us where we are. Valerie. | ||
| Max |
Know what Groucho Marx said about his self-esteem? "I wouldn't BELONG to a country club that would have ME for a member!" | ||
| Cindy |
Max, Hi! again! :-)) I feel that the poem "The Gospel according to You" is misleading in that, to me at least! it implies DIFFERENT gospel messages... To me the Gospel is a proclamation of what Christ DID on the Cross when he took our place and bore our sin! There is only ONE gospel message! Sin has been dealt with by Christ's work for us. Of course the EFFECTS of hearing this message will be realized and shown in different ways by different believers; but the "Main Thing", CHRIST!!(as our Perfect Sacrifice and Substitute) must always remain the Main thing!!! The historical FACTS are outlined in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John... and then explained fully in the Epistles. But it is ONE and the SAME message, the FACT of Christ's Substitutionary Atonement for us..the wrath of God poured out on Christ instead of us, our standing in and access to God's Holiness absolutely guaranteed by CHRIST'S work... I KNOW he continues to work within us, yet our Gospel message is not what it has done in our lives, no matter how wonderful. Many can and do testify to the wonderful peace they have gotten in Scientology, Baha'i, etc., etc. So I still contend that our gospel message is unified and focalized on what CHRIST accomplished once and for all! I may not have much time to post this week, but I did want to comment on that one poem. Having stated these beliefs of mine, from my studies; I realize we may disagree; :-)) I still admire your knowledge and passion... May we rejoice always in the Cross! and continue to "follow" Jesus. :-)) Grace always, Cindy | ||
| Valm |
Cindy, No one would want to disagree with you that the gospel message is unified and focalized on what CHRIST accomplished once and for all! This is so true. And I knew Max would here from someone reguarding his poem. I think the poem could be misinterpreted if not viewed under what Christ accomplished for us, once and for all. With reguards to the Gospel being according to us. Many people have never experienced just basic humanity. And we come to them talking a talk they have no concept of. The words have no meaning to them. They do not understand anything about love. Where I believe our actions come into play is helping them understand about God's love. There is a little boy who comes to our church with the neighbor of his Grandma. His mother is a druggie and he was just returned to Grandma. God only knows what he experienced on the road with his mother for years. Recently his Father died. This little boy was with his Father when he died of an apparent heart attack. He is only eight years old. We can all tell him about the wonderful plan of salvation. But at the present time he doesn't have the spiritual base to understand this. And he hasn't been around a loving stable environment to even have a glimpse of what the type of love we are speaking about here. I say that the only way this little boy is going to come through this with his concept of God intact is through the actions of others. I say that he probably won't return to our church unless the members of our congregation reach out to him and let him know that he is missed and thought about. I understand that there are many wonderful people in other faiths. I don't have a problem with seeing the workings of the Holy Spirit in other faiths. God will take care of that in his own time and own way. Perhaps that brings an element of discomfort to some, that God could possibly send his Holy Spirit to other faiths. And I apologize for offending others with my opinion. I am not even so forsure that believing in the Lord Jesus Christ is something that must be complete before our life here on earth is ended. And who really knows what special communications we have with our God in those final minutes, seconds before we leave this life. My God is BIG enough to have this all figured out. So I don't question the problem with seeing his work in other faiths. I am grateful that I have this wonderful message of his Grace and Salvation now. And I hopeful that in any small way my behaviors or actions can help others see a small glimpse of his LOVE. | ||
| Max |
Cindy, bless you, I have no problem with your assertion, ^^To me the Gospel is a proclamation of what Christ DID on the Cross when he took our place and bore our sin!^^ As long as it is CLEARLY understood that such words are thoroughly invested with loving ACTIONS. I DO have a problem if that proclamation is only empty words, however. Or "the Talk" without "the Walk." For "If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal." 1 Corinthians 13:1 NIV. Even "If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge," "but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal." "Prophecies ... will cease." "Tongues ... will be stilled." "Knowledge ... will pass away." Faith, hope and love do remain -- but love is greater even than faith! Therefore, if "proclamation of what Christ DID on the Cross when he took our place and bore our sin" is devoid of LOVING ACTIONS, you have nothing, Cindy, and less than nothing. Here's why: "God so LOVED the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son nito the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believs in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their DEEDS were evil. Everyone who DOES evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his DEEDS will be exposed. But whoever LIVES by the truth comes into the light, so that it may BE SEEN plainly that what he has DONE has been DONE THROUGH GOD." John 3:16-21. So much for WORDS if they have no loving ACTIONS to back them, loving ACTIONS that come only from Christ crucified-yet-risen in our hearts. Blessings, Cindy, beloved by God, Max of the Cross | ||
| Cindy |
Valerie and Max....:-)) thanks for your thoughts in response to my question... Okay, I can agree with you on the importance of "love" being shown! :-)) This proclamation of Christ bearing our sins, completely, perfectly , and with finality, is so wonderful that it seems natural that a lifestyle of love would follow... But I realize that is sadly not always the case. Many have causd disrepute on the name of Jesus by treating lightly and flaunting his wonderful grace... But Max, here is where I am coming from when I questioned above... I have been the recipient of MUCH LOVE from people whose beliefs I don't agree with! People who do not see Christ crucified as our Final Atonement and Rest. HEARING (and reading) this Gospel message was unbelievably good to me. I heard great sermons and read great books (from people I didn't know!) I needed to hear it proclaimed (Christ crucified for me!); and continue to need to hear it!! I still feel a sermon without the focus on the Cross may be somewhat interesting,(maybe in giving us helpful hints in living); but if, along with these encouragements and admonitions... if it does not have "Christ crucified" as central, it does not have the POWER and WISDOM of God! Not just by observing love in other people. As I mentioned if it were just for loving-type people, I would and could have remained completely outside of this marvelous understanding of the Cross. (this does bring up some of Valerie's ideas on salvation being extended to those who do not rest fully on Christ now...they sure can show love!!) Have a great day.... Grace always, cindy | ||
| Max |
Good Morning, Everyone, Max of the Cross has been accused of labeling a certain kind of grace as bogus. To that charge I plead guilty. But I am not the first to engage in such labeling. New Testament writers were the first. JUDE labeled it CHANGED grace and alluded to it as GODLESS and CHRIST-DENYING grace. "Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you [both Jewish and Gentile Christians around AD 65] about the salvation we share, I felt I had to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints. For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are GODLESS men, who CHANGE the grace of our God into a LICENSE for immorality and DENY Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord." Jude 1:3-4 NIV. And Paul alluded to it as UNRIGHTEOUS, UNJUST, HUMAN, FALSE, CONDEMNED, SLANDEROUS and EVIL grace: "But if our UNRIGHTEOUSNESS brings out God's righteousness more clearly, what shall we say? That God is UNJUST in bringing his wrath on us? (I am using a HUMAN argument.) Certainly not! If that were so, how could God judge the world? Someone might argue, 'If my FALSEHOOD enhances God's truthfulness and so increases his glory, why am I still CONDEMNED as a sinner?' Why not say -- as we are being SLANDEROUSLY reported as saying and as some claim that we ay -- 'Let us do EVIL that good may result? Their CONDEMNATION is deserved." Romans 3:5-8. Dr. Bonhoeffer calls it CHEAP grace. And I continue to call it BOGUS grace, even SELF-INDULGENT grace. For it is certainly not God's grace; it is the grace of SELF -- unrepentant, disobedient, unsubmitted SELF. "Whoever LIVES by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be SEEN PLAINLY that what he has DONE has been DONE THROUGH GOD." John 3:21. What is the grace that is not "of self"? It is this: "I [Christ] have given them [you and me, fellow believers] the glory that you [Father] gave me, that they may be one AS we are one. I IN them and you IN me. May they be brought to complete unity to LET THE WORLD KNOW that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me." John 17:22-23. Max of the Cross | ||
| Max |
Some maintain that conversion = changed character. But that is unscriptural. Here's what's scriptural: Changed character is the RESULT of conversion. "Be ye transformed." "Walk in newness of life." Be born again, crave God's spiritual breastmilk, be weaned onto God's "solid food," and grow up in God's grace. If you are in Christ you are a new creation -- the old [life] has passed away. All things have become new. And many many other similar Scriptures. Max of the Cross | ||
| Valm |
Amen Brother Max. Valerie | ||
| Max |
Some maintain that conversion = believing on the Lord Jesus Christ. But there is not so much as one shred of scriptural evidence to back up this claim. Conversion is the RESULT of believing on the Lord Jesus Christ. Grace comes first. Faith-response follows (with repentance, obedience, and submission to the will of God). And the CONVERTED life follows the faith-response. I can provide hundreds of New Testament references to back up this progression. | ||
| Max |
Precious Cindy, ^^I have been the recipient of MUCH LOVE from people whose beliefs I don't agree with! People who do not see Christ crucified as our Final Atonement and Rest.^^ Jesus said, "All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. For I have come down from heaven." John 6:35-38. I certainly agree with you that every sermon must focus on the cross. But you wouldn't argue, would you, that that sermon can be empty of love? Love IS the cross. The cross IS love. He also said, "I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will lsiten to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd." John 10:16. These people belong to Christ, not to us. We cannot control the spread of the gospel message. We can only live it in words and deeds. Ever wonder why "people whose beliefs I don't agree with!" do not accept the empty mouthings of so-called Christ-proclaimers whose walk doesn't match their talk? Maybe it's because they rightfully do not accept cheap-grace Christianity. Hitler, after all, claimed Christianity in his speeches to the German nation during his rise to Nazi power in the 30s. And all the while he was plotting the extermination of Jews, homosexuals, retarded, etc. And Ghandi said -- after being asked what he thought of Christianity -- said, "I think that would be a good idea." You wrote, "If it were just for loving-type people, I would and could have remained completely outside of this marvelous understanding of the Cross." Are you so sure? It is God who is sovereign. It is God who works in mysterious ways. And it is God who gives us the gospel comission to preach in both word and deed inseparable. And grace always to you, Cindy, Max of the Cross | ||
| Max |
The statement -- "We cannot help but "continue" a sinful life" -- is a direction contradiction to many Scriptures. Here is but one: Romans 8:9 You, however, are controlled NOT by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does NOT belong to Christ. 10 But if Christ is IN you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is ALIVE because of righteousness. 11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living IN you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives IN you. 12 Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation -- but it is NOT to the sinful nature, to live according to it. 13 For if you LIVE according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you PUT TO DEATH the misdeeds of the body, you will live, 14 because those who are LED by the Spirit of God are sons of God. 15 For you did NOT receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship. And by him we cry, "Abba, Father." 16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we ARE God's children. 17 Now if we are children, then we are HEIRS -- heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory. Max of the Cross | ||
| Max |
Adding to my post of "Tuesday, February 6, 2001 - 08:13 am" above, I need to say: Paul also alluded to VAIN grace. "As God's fellow worksers we urge you not to receive God's grace in [or as] VAIN." I want to thank God for Grace Ambassador who pointed this usage out. MC | ||
| Jag |
Hi everyone. This is my first day online here. I have been feeling very alone with my thoughts on the Sabbath and thought this might be a good place to get some direction. Some three years ago I left the SDA church after all my life being there. I have read all the books by Radsliff and everything I can get ahold of. But I am struggling with some scriptures that seem to torture my mind at times. First of all I have a hard time believing that the Sabbath is a shadow. I believe that God rested at creation even though it was not a commandment until at Mt. Sinai. Today I'm not sure if it is obligatory and the verses I read in Romans and Galations i can't say for sure when it's talking about the ceremonial days or the actual 7th day. Matt. 5:17 is the sole scripture that I can't link in with the other scriptures Paul says about the law being abolished. I reason that if I know that being in adultery, or a murderer would reflect that I am not in Christ and the other 9 commandments would indeed not be ignored, then how does the 4th fit in with that. Jesus said that not one letter would be changed until earth and heaven pass away. The fact that he fulfilled the law's requirements does not mean then the law is void. I have read Galations and Romans everyday for a year I think and this just seems to be difficult to master. I don't keep the sabbath in anyway anymore but I miss it so much and I'm beginning to understand what it possibly could mean. It is not salvation but perhaps a blessing is lost by not enjoying it. I know that Sunday is not holy and I go to church now on Sunday but it just isn't the same. If anyone has been struggling through this, I'd appreciate another viewpoint to help me out. I believe that Salvation is only through Jesus Christ and I'm not trying to make the Sabbath a issue like that but it seems to have its benefits. | ||
| Valm |
Dear Jag, Welcome to FAF. We have had about 4 or 5 newcomers today. This is exciting. I am always the first to say go to the links section of this site and then scroll down to Grace Place and hit the button on New Covenant Christians. The whole book is good but the last two chapters deal with what your are asking. I have visited Messianic Groups. (Jewish people who embrace the Gospel message). They celebrate the Sabbath and that might be an alternative for you. so do Seventh Day Baptists. I do not think you will find anyone who would discourage your desire to celebrate the Sabbath. The issue would be taken that it is not necessary for salvation. If the Sabbath brings you spiritual renewal, do not deny yourself that weekly ritual. If it is a burden, reconsider. Best wishes Valerie | ||
| Valm |
Jag, I copied a portion of New Covenant Christians for Kelly on the Question on Scripture thread. It adresses Matt 5:18. I would welcome your opinion and hope it helps. Valerie | ||
| Cindy |
Jag, Welcome,:-)) I'm glad you're here! Keep reading! I know the Holy Spirit will be with you! Once you see the Sabbath "day" as the LIMITED "shadow" of that UNLIMITED REST we have in its' REALITY, the fullfillment in Christ alone!, you will have more peace... ...a peace in that you will realize you can take, or leave, the actual "keeping" of a day. If you desire the spiritual discipline and change of pace the "keeping" of a day affords, go for it. (Check out Romans 14!) But Sabbath-keeping is not a salvation issue! All the very limited 10 commandments find their FULLNESS in JESUS. Look how Jesus EXPANDS these commands in his Sermon (on the Mount). As far as Creation goes, I see the "rest" proclaimed about the seventh day--the "blessing" and "making holy" from God--as not having an END!! It was made to be a blessed, holy day (day after day after day)... into eternity! Eternal rest and face-face communion every day with our God!! God's WORK was FINISHED... even Creation prefigured our ultimated rest in Christ when on the Cross HE proclaimed His WORK done... "It is finished!" Sin marred this continual rest and fellowship with God; and so the Sabbath was instituted at Sinai to point to a future Rest in Jesus. A "Shadow" put in place to point to the "Reality" promised in the New COvenant where once again we would have full access to God!! We have this now! Because of the Cross, what JESUS accomplished FOR US!, we have been seated in heavenly places with Christ! The way into the most Holy place is open to us! God Himself provided the way! HE tore the "curtain" separating us (from top to bottom!) and invites us into HIS PRESENCE! Grace always, Cindy | ||
| Chyna |
dear jag, some thoughts. as someone who almost always has worshipped with other believers on Sundays, i'll have to say that when I don't attend church on Sundays I feel guilty, like something is missing. I could have gone to church on Wednesday, and Friday nights during the week, I could have even met personally with friends to pray during the week. yet if I miss corporate worship on Sundays, i feel like maybe God is upset i didn't go. i have been to an Adventist church on Saturday, sure it felt weird, like something was wrong that I wasn't worshipping on the right day. :). see how much of it is habitual, and not spiritual? the MOST important part to remember about Sabbath is what it was meant to do. it was meant to show REST, but not physical rest, but spiritual rest. Jesus says, "Come unto me, all who are weary and heavy laden, and I will give you rest." in Matthew. also, with your difficulty in believing that Sabbath was a shadow of Salvation. well, think about it this way. This life, as we know it, is a MERE SHADOW of what heaven will be like. :). can you believe in that? if you want to spend your Saturdays at church and hiking and watching sunsets, or whatever, that is totally fine! God enjoys your worship regardless of what day it is on. I think the crippling thing about Sabbath for Adventists is that they believe that "keeping" it will make them somehow holier or that they are more endeared to God's heart because they imitate the Jews (the Israelites). to be people after God's own heart is not about making ourselves righteous or just before God by "perfecting the observation of Sabbath" no, indeed, to find favor with God would mean loving our neighbors more than anything else. also, last words. The Lord's Day is mentioned in the Bible. Sunday is the day that Jesus Christ rose from the dead. you say that you know that Sundays are not holy. how do you feel knowing that we are continuing in the footsteps of our Spiritual Fathers of the Faith by worshipping on Sundays? how do you feel knowing that we congregate on Sundays? the day that Jesus conquered Death, and the Gates of Hell? the day when you and I were given the unbelievable opportunity to be RESTORED to GOD? you know, Sabbath just doesn't do it for me. it's a sign between israel and God. just like eating matzo balls. it doesn't connect with me in any spiritual or cultural way. but knowing that I can rejoice in my Salvation every Sunday by coming together to worship God. now that clicks with something inside me no Saturday just doesn't have for me. in Him, Chyna |
