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| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 5772 Registered: 9-2006  |
Back a few years ago, Hollywood produced a show whereas the contestant would have to choose between three people, which one was the true person or some such. It never really did take off, but my wife liked to watch it and try and choose with the audience which one was the true blue person. The other were just lying to try and convince you they were the real McCoy. The idea behind it was to have audiences participate in the show, and therefore the participation was the hook for the show. There has been many shows like this, but this particular one comes to mind. After each person tells a little bit at a time about himself, at long last, the real person stands up to reveal that he is the person in question, the rest are actors. I would hardly ever get it right. Each of the three persons were so convincing. That is much like religions. In a recent post, one of our members said that the Adventist Jesus was not the true Jesus. How could she tell? In IICor. We have this scripture: Corinthians II 11:12 But what I do, that I will do, that I may cut off occasion from them which desire occasion; that wherein they glory, they may be found even as we. Corinthians II 11:13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. Corinthians II 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Corinthians II 11:15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works. Note that last bit: whose end shall be according to their works. Well…what is the Adventist works? If one can determine that, then one can determine their end. Is it works of faith in Jesus? Or is it works of faith in the Adventist church? No doubt about it, there is plenty of works. My Adventist friends work tirelessly, one goes to a prison, another goes on trips to South America, another is a retired Pastor, another per motes Satellite Antenna’s (I know, he suckered me in) I blew, if I remember right, 200 smackers on that thing. I finally threw it in the junk. I have heard many people say, “Oh, we can’t judge.” Well…if I had of judged, it would have saved me 200 bucks, maybe 200 bucks isn’t very much to you, but I am a tight wad and that still smarts. I might as well have flushed it down the toilet. There is nothing wrong with looking at a thing with common sense the last time I checked. Yet I did not use the common sense and logic God gave me to check this out before I bought into it. I think we can determine whose fault that was. Mine alone. It is amazing though, how at length we will go at times, in order to not have to face full responsibility when we do go wrong. The former Adventist comes out, and the first question is, since I have been fooled all along, who can I trust? Well friend, we can trust what the Bible says, and that’s who we can trust. Don’t trust me, remember the satellite system. Previous to the verses I pointed too, we have this. Corinthians II 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtlety, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. That was his fear, that their minds would be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. The works of the Adventists do attempt to corrupt peoples mind from the simplicity that is in Christ. When I first met them, they seemed to per mote works of light. I had had a simple faith all those years, a simple faith in Christ. As I heard them out, there was a knocking deep down inside that something was not quite right. I couldn’t quite put my finger on it, but there was something wrong, as they attempted to transform their doctrine into light. As I dug deeper and deeper into their doctrine, the more the gross deception was exposed. We might say that this is the works of Adventist, to corrupt our minds from the simplicity that is in Christ Jesus our lord. As I struggled for knowledge, I took no mans word, not my own churches doctrines, not theirs. I dug deep into the general theology of most of the mainline denominations, what they put fourth and why they put it fourth. Everything went under the magnifying glass of reason and the judge was the word of God. What will their end be? Certainly I found that through subtlety they corrupt the simplicity that is in Christ. It wasn’t to stand in judgement of my friends that I struggled with this thing, not to place blame on them, not to accuse them, but as Paul so aptly wrote, “But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtlety, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. This was my fear as the deep knocking continued, real deep down, “Son, hear my word.” No matter what you hear, hear my word.” So as I read the word prayerfully one morning and anguished over my friends, not in hate because of what they put forth, not blame placing, but in honest struggle and anguish of heart to hold out hope for my friends. I cried out in my heart, knowing deep down that things just did not line up, having studied for almost three years as I thought about these folks whom I had come to love. I cried out in anguish, “But Lord, all those people?” And at that instant my eyes were especially drawn to the scripture I was reading to Amos 7:7-9 and it seemed the Holy Spirit ask, what do you see in my word? I confessed with tears, “Lord, I see a plumbline.” The truth is, I had always seen Gods word as truth, I just didn’t, deep down, want to acknowledge some of it. I wanted to buy in to the deception; it was easier to do that, than have to be concerned about my friend’s salvation. But as Paul anguished, so I anguished and had to come to the conclusion of, “But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtlety, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. Lest by any means, be it the Adventist church doctrine, or any other means, I fear they have become beguiled with subtlety, even as Eve, and have been led astray and away, from the simplicity that is in Christ Jesus. When we fear as Paul feared, it is a holy fear, a fear of love. So I found that for loves sake, these ones had become my friends, but for the gospels sake, the simplicity that is in Christ, they have become my enemies. This kind of fear is gut wrenching, a will to protect them, not destroy them. To pray for them, not pray against them. We need to hear the word, because it is from that the Holy Spirit will speak. Out of seeking God through prayer and believing and receiving the word into our heart’s, we determine how to pray for them, to pray for their salvation. John 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. The word that he has spoken will arise before us all, and be the judge and jury. John 1:1 starts out In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. John 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God. As the old song goes, “He was there all the time.” Many mistake us here on this forum, but we are not here to bash Adventist, it is this fear that Paul had that drives us, to expose and bring to light an unfruitful work of darkness, that people might see the simplicity that is in Christ, the rest in him awaits those who labor and are heavy laden, those who would come to him, he will not turn away. The real Jesus does stand in testimony of his grace, all sufficient. Just about time I get real discouraged; another will write in, “I see, I see!” Another blind eyes have been opened to the simplicity that is in Christ. Oh, how I would love for my friends to be one of those. This is not a one liner gospel that I am talking about, not a catchall for every Tom, Dick and Harry belief in the world, it is a gospel that lays it at the feet of Jesus, a gospel of repentance and faith, a letting him put on us a robe of white in exchange for our rags of our sin and self justification. River | ||
| Lori Registered user Username: Lori Post Number: 97 Registered: 11-1999 |
Thank you, River!! Great post... Lori | ||
| Honestwitness Registered user Username: Honestwitness Post Number: 966 Registered: 7-2005  |
Yes, River. Thank you. You just underlined an epiphany the Lord gave me today. The Holy Spirit took me to Matthew 28:19-20, especially the part about us teaching all nations to observe whatsoever Jesus has commanded us. To an Adventist mind, that means teach about observing the sabbath. So, the question came to my mind, "Who are all nations?" The answer includes people groups around the globe, including those in the remotest places. This would include Eskimos at Point Barrow, Alaska, and aboriginal tribes deep in the Amazon jungle. Other questions arose. "What has Jesus commanded? Is it sabbath observance?" I answered that sabbath observance could not be taught to all people groups, especially the Eskimos at Point Barrow, Alaska. How can they be taught to observe a Biblical sabbath, when they have several months of continuous darkness and several months of continuous light each year? Nor can one teach aboriginal tribes deep in the Amazon jungle to observe the sabbath. Some of them don't even have words for the concept of a seven-day week. I believe that, rather than teaching sabbath observance, Jesus is instructing us to teach God's moral law in generalities, not in the particulars. Keep it simple, saints! (KISS) Jesus taught the law in generalities when he was on earth. He taught that all the law is summed up in two commandments -- love God with all your heart and love your neighbor as yourself. I believe we are responsible to teach Jesus commandments in generalities, or in simplicity, as you say, River. It is the Holy Spirit's responsibility to teach each individual how those generalities apply to their own lives in the particulars. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 5773 Registered: 9-2006 |
Matthew 28:19-20 has always held my interest. When I was first saved I did not understand what Jesus was saying exactly. Was he referring to the Ten Commandments? I asked myself. I think in order to understand what Jesus was saying is to look further in scripture and see what the apostles later taught. The content of the apostles future teaching stems from what Jesus had commanded them. So if you jump from there into the book of acts, then you begin to see this put in practical terms and not terms of general rule. Jesus assures them in verse 20 of his divine presence as they go on their divinely commanded mission. What did the apostles and Paul teach? In looking at what they taught, we can see what Jesus was commanding them to teach, not generalities, but in the books starting with Acts, the apostles are teaching specifics. Adventism, and those in Adventism, as anyone can see, does not teach what the apostles taught, but what Ellen White taught. As demonstrated very well in this issue of Proclamation! The apostles taught the simplicity of Christ and referring to the later scriptures I believe it was Roy Tinker who said this in this issue. The questions of the mechanics of how the Bible was inspired and whether it can be taken as the inerrant word of God, without error in the original manuscripts, are essential and foundational. We begin by looking at what the Bible says about itself. If we are to accept the Bible in any way, we must accept it on its own terms, not on our terms. There is no middle ground regarding Biblical inspiration and interpretation: we can either accept or reject what the Bible says about itself. In doing so, we either accept or reject the Bible itself. If Adventism rejects what the Bible says, which it very well does, we can then assume that the Holy Spirits presence is not with them, nor among them, and further, from that we can assume that they who teach what is so blatantly not the word of God, are not saved. I think we can also assume the first thing to pray for Adventist is their salvation. It may be your husband, or wife, or child, but prayer for their salvation is of prime importance no matter how pious they may seem. I doubt very seriously if ANY of the Adventist churches have a Spirit empowered ministry, and certainly do not teach the simplicity of the gospel. What I see on the forum, is that people have no trouble identifying the organization as teaching an upside down doctrine, but when it comes to identifying that with individual persons who might not be saved, people who are in their own families, then we get into problems, its the organizations fault we readily admit, but my question is, who makes up this organization. Paul, I think, believed God and trembled when he considered those who preach a false gospel and thus the words. "I fear." I think spoken in the context of, "I feared for his life as he hung from a thread over the precipice." These people, at least from what I can gather, do hang by a thread, which is liable to give way any minute, when the slim thread of this life gives way for whatever reason. If we won't admit that they might not be saved, we won't pray for their salvation. Salvation is the prime requisite, the prime directive. In verse 19 Jesus said make disciples, baptizing in the name of the father, the son and Holy Ghost, not hide the bacon and the Sunday school lesson for tomorrow, and go hide under the bed till they are gone. Oh well, I might be wrong about all this, after all, I bought a ridicules Satellite system from one of them, shows how smart I am don't it? River | ||
| Honestwitness Registered user Username: Honestwitness Post Number: 967 Registered: 7-2005 |
River, you're right on. What I meant by teaching the generalities is exactly what you just said about teaching the Apostles doctrine. In contrast, I remember once listening to a recorded sermon series with hubby. The preacher was C. D. Brooks, an African-American SDA preacher. Brooks was teaching Adventists about sabbath observance and toward the end of his sermon, he would read out the questions the audience had written on index cards and passed forward to him. Then he would answer each one. It was pitiful! One woman wanted to know if it was all right to wash and set her hair on Friday evening after sundown. Brooks told her, "No!" One man asked if it was ok to shave on Saturday morning, before church. Brooks told him, "No!" THAT was not the simplicity of the gospel. That is not what Jesus meant in Matthew 28:19-20. I endured listening to that kind of thing for 16 years, in order to keep my marriage together. I had no idea, when I first got married and first joined the Agventist church, that Adventism could be so far off from the gospel. I learned more and more about Adventism as the years went on and, as I did, I was less and less able to call myself a true Adventist. Hubby knew I was having these struggles, because I told him so. It was no surprise to hubby, when I finally quit Adventism four years ago. He continues his intense involvement, nonetheless. But I am so happy to be back to mainstream Protestant Christianity. And River, I DO pray for hubby that God will grant him the gift of new birth, deliver him from bondage to Adventism, and bring him forth out of darkness into His marvellous light. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 5774 Registered: 9-2006 |
Honestwitness, I already knew you did, the further you get away from Adventism the more stark it becomes. I for one having been having you on my heart and prayers for some time. We see in Hebrews how through faith women had their dead brought back to life. Well...don't seem much different to me when we pray for our lost. Your situation is acknowledged her on this forum and has been. We love you Honestwitness, and by the way. Happy thanksgiving day. I going to eat real Turkey, ot Ham, or whatever else I can get my hands on.  River | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 10705 Registered: 12-2003  |
River, what a great post. Thank you. Honestwitness--I totally understand. I understand that progressive move away from being able to call oneself an Adventist. Yes, the real turkey was great! Colleen |
