| Author | Message | ||
| Pegg Registered user Username: Pegg Post Number: 580 Registered: 2-2006 |
A friend and I are having a discussion about the political role of Israel as the People of God. Outside of the Revelation, do you find any passages in the New Testament which clearly, plainly, unambiguously speak of some future role for the literal state of Israel in God's plan. What are those passages? I am going to be gone for the weekend, but would love to have some answers when I get back. Thank You In Advance. Pegg  | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 10644 Registered: 12-2003  |
Pegg, I can't think of any that are clear, plain, and unambiguous. There are several that hint at it, but nothing unambiguous. Romans 11 is one of the most convicting passages for me. On the other hand, I would not expect the NT to focus on the literal state of Israel. The NT was written to the church, and because the Jews had been hardened "in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in" (Romans 11:25), the church has been mostly Gentile. While there is no difference in the church between Jews and Gentiles, the Gentiles had unique issues to deal with unrelated to the law. They had to learn to live by the Spirit without the history of being part of God's special revelation in the nation of Israel. But the fact that there is nothing unambiguous shouldn't discount the possibility that the state of Israel is part of God's plan which He is fulfilling now. The OT prophecies were not about the church; the church, Paul says, was a mystery which was not revealed until after Pentecost. And at the very least, we have Acts 17:26-27 which says that God determined the times and exact places where every nation and person would live. The literal state of Israel is part of God's sovereign plan. Revelation was written as a continuation of the prophecies already made in the OT. Its imagery and events almost all echo the prophecies and events of the OT. It is not a book written using "church language"--with the exception of the opening three chapters which contain the letters to the seven churches. Revelation begins to make fuller sense when we cross reference it to the OT. The entire subject of the state of Israel is fraught with differences of opinions. But we just can't split off Revelation from the NT and expect that we must find what it says in the epistles. Their purposes are different. One of the principles of biblical interpretation is to recognize the different genres of writing and to use them as they were meant to be used. The epistles are didactic missives written to instruct the church how to live. Revelation is prophetic, and its genre is the same as Isaiah, Jeremiah,Ezekiel, etc. Prophetic books are used and understood differently from letters or historic books. Because Revelation is clearly a prophetic book—the only primarily prophetic book in the NT—we have to look at it in comparison with the OT prophetic books as well. Colleen | ||
| Pegg Registered user Username: Pegg Post Number: 582 Registered: 2-2006 |
That's what I told my friend. Such a passage doesn't exist. If it did the discussion would have ceased long before now. Just Checking. Pegg | ||
| Bskillet Registered user Username: Bskillet Post Number: 635 Registered: 8-2008 |
The "state" of Israel ceased to exist when the covenant that created it was nailed to the cross. Paul talks in Romans 11 of the ethnic descendants of the patriarchs being part of God's future plan on account of God's love for the patriarchs. But an ethnic group is different from a "state." God may use the gathering of the patriarchs' children in the present state of Israel as part of His plan, but that does not mean God endorses the "state of Israel" proper. God still intends to save the descendants of the patriarchs. He does not, nor will He ever, continue the Sinaitic covenant with Israel. It was nailed to the cross, so to interpret it any other way is to say the cross is not permanent and final.
I have a question Colleen: How do you deal with Acts 15, in which an OT prophecy about the re-building of David's [by implication, Solomon's] Temple is applied to the church after Pentecost? How about the fact that in Hebrews 8, the New Covenant promise made through Jeremiah to Israel and Judah is given to the church, while the author is warning his readers not to go back to Judaism? The church was grafted into the promise, after all. If it was not prophesied in the OT, then there is no New Covenant. What about all those passages where Peter and Paul refer to the bride as a temple built of living stones? Those references didn't come from no where. They use the imagery of the OT prophets. Further, in Hebrews 2:11-13: The author of Hebrews quotes extensively from the Greek Septuagint. Here he quotes Psalm 22: "I will sing hymns to You in the congregation." Unfortunately, translators are very inconsistent about how they translate the word ekklesia. This is partly because of tradition: King James required his translators to purposely mis-translate ekklesia, changing the traditional Protestant translation (by Luther and Tyndale) of "congregation" to the Roman Catholic/Latin Vulgate translation of "church." This was in order to create a false foundation of himself as the English pope heading up a political system of clerics with buildings. In Hebrews 2:12, translators render ekklesia as "congregation," the correct translation. Pretty much everywhere else, they translate it as "church," which is not the proper translation as any decent Greek scholar will tell you (the Greek etymology of church usually denotes a building, while ekklesia denotes a gathered people). The point is, the author of Hebrews is trying to show that Jesus is greater than the Old Testament, and is the fulfillment of the OT prophecies. The word ekklesia was a word familiar to his audience: It was the word the gathered body of Christian believers used for themselves in the first century. He is showing that what we call "the church" is a fulfillment of Messianic prophecy. If we were consistent with his intention, we would translate it, "I [Jesus] will sing hymns to You in the church." The meaning is clear: David is prophesying that Jesus will be present with His gathered body. Paul doesn't say the church had no prophetic foreshadowing in the OT. He says the mystery is the inclusion of uncircumcised Gentiles (Col. 1 and Eph. 2) and the fact that Jesus always intended to have a bride/people whom He would dwell within (Eph. 3). The mystery is that the prophecies, like those quoted in Acts 15, that dealt with re-building a Temple, actually referred in their fullest fulfillment to the gathered Temple of living stones, namely the bride of Christ. The mystery isn't that there were no previous prophetic indication of the church. The mystery was the method of God's fulfillment, which could never have been known or understood before the Messiah's death and resurrection. I'm not trying to be mean here, but the claim that the church was not prophesied in the OT, but only revealed after Pentecost, is plainly incorrect by the very text of Acts 2 that deals with the Pentecost. Peter explicitly says Pentecost, the birth of the church, was prophesied in Joel 2. Last time I checked, Joel is in the OT. (Message edited by bskillet on November 13, 2009) | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 10650 Registered: 12-2003 |
You're right, Brent, and I should have said that the veiled prophecies of the church were not understood until after Pentecost. The prophecies were there, but they were veiled and not clearly seen. In fact, they couldn't have been clearly seen because they were hidden in God until the new, living way to Him was opened by the blood of Jesus. My point was that just because we cannot clearly see references to Israel in the NT doesn't mean we won't eventually be able to look back and see things with fuller understanding. Just because we have no unambiguous statements does not mean nothing's there. The Israelites would never have figured out the church just from the prophecies before their fulfillment. The OT prophecies were intended for Israel, and Israel was intended to understand them as concerning them. The applications of new covenant prophecies to the church were not clear until the NT writers drew out those meanings. The new covenant prophecies, for example, were intended for Israel to see them as promises to them. A successive fulfillment of them as applying to the church is also true. But that could not be seen in advance. One more thing--the issue about the state of Israel is not whether or not God endorses a godless state. Of course, a secular state of Israel does not fulfill any of the prophecies of Christ reigning over Israel from Jerusalem. But we cannot say God has not intended the state of Israel to exist as part of an ongoing fulfillment that a remnant of all the tribes of Israel would return to the land. For the past one hundred and some years, Jews have been returning to Israel after it had been desolate. The swamps have been drained; there is an organized nation. Is it honoring God? Of course not! But God's hand moves even when people are godless. Nebuchadnezzar and Cyrus, for example, were not worshipers of Yaweh. Yet God used and blessed them for His own purposes. Ezekiel's dry bones came together after having been a scattered field of disconnected bones. Yet they did not have life in them when they came together. Only after they came together and rose up did they eventually receive life. And absolutely, Brent, the New Covenant is once for all. The Mosaic covenant is over. When Israel is unhardened, however that looks politically, they will recognize Jesus as their King and Messiah. They will worship Him directly, not with shadows. Colleen (Message edited by Colleentinker on November 13, 2009) | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 5729 Registered: 9-2006  |
I don’t intend to re-visit my old stomping grounds of prophecy studies, but Israel is very much in Bible prophecy. I am very much premillennial in view. The liberal churches are pretty much hopeless in regards to honest Bible study. What disturbs me more than the liberal churches, which I tend to disregard altogether as no more than a nuisance, is that seminaries such as Dallas Theological is becoming more anti-Semitic. Romans 11:6-11 and 11:25-26 and other scripture explains. Now with that tiny foray into Israel today and their place in Gods plan, I withdraw as I have absolutely no time, desire, or intentions to debate Israel, more especially with liberals or others who cannot endure sound doctrine. I will depart this subject with a warning not to get too puffed up lest the branch rejoice in superiority over the trunk and root of the tree that bore it, but rather rejoice in the goodness and mercies of God. River | ||
| Bskillet Registered user Username: Bskillet Post Number: 636 Registered: 8-2008 |
Oh, okay. I see what you're saying Colleen. I agree. The body of Christ is prophesied in the OT, but in a very veiled form. People living in the Old Covenant would have made the obvious assumption that, for instance, Amos 9:11-12 had to do only with the physical temple being rebuilt and Gentiles becoming circumcised. They wouldn't have foreseen its fullest fulfillment in the birth of the Church, and its extension to Gentiles apart from the Law Covenant. Only in the cross could the veil of the Old Covenant be removed. As I said, I don't believe the state of Israel is somehow God's chosen government, but for purely secular reasons I think it is useful for the democratic West to have a mostly westernized democracy as a barrier in the middle of the fascist Islamic world. That said, I think a lot of the latent anti-semitism in some veins of Christianity results from applying an unrealistic standard of political perfection to the state of Israel that is not applied to most governments in general. Not that Israel is perfect, mind you, because that government has done some bad things. But some people expect Israel to conform to an unrealistic standard of pacifism that is so high that no nation could survive under that standard, especially not given the threats Israel deals with on a daily basis. | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 752 Registered: 3-2009 |
What's the definition of anti-Semitic? Is it anything that portraits Jews in a negative way? Or anything that discriminates against Jews? If it is the latter, then I am totally against antisemitism. If it is the former, then I am anti-Semitic, and so is Jesus because, Jesus cried over Israel, and say "your house is left desolate"and said many negative things against the Jews. So did Paul. I do not understand why it is OK to say negative things against USA, China, UK, etc, but it is a sin to say anything negative against Israel. Isn't it better just to stick to what is truth? Be it USA, China, or Israel? Positive or negative. Hec | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 1094 Registered: 7-2007 |
As former Adventists we have been taught that ALL promises in the Bible are conditional. Some of them aren't, though. First, I'd like to mention the fact that Israel couldn't be there if God hadn't done some really powerful miracles to keep it there. Otherwise how do you explain the fact that just after Israel declared it's independence and all those big Arab nations attacked it; they WON against all those nations. Besides that, they won all the wars since. Next I want to mention Romans 11. It seems pretty clear to me. How could this be metaphoric? "...blindness in part has happened to Israel UNTIL the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved..." verses 25 & 26. Here's one in the Old Testament but as you can see it is NOT a conditional promise: Ezekiel 36:22-24 (this was prophesied to happen AFTER Israel was scattered among the nations, which we know happened after the second temple was destroyed approx. 2000 years ago) "Therefore say to the house of Israel, 'Thus says the Lord God: "I do not do this for your sake, O house of Israel, but for My holy name's sake, which you have profaned among the nations wherever you went. And I will sanctify My great name, which has been profaned among the nations, which you have profaned in their midst; and the nations shall know that I am the LORD," says the LORD GOD, "when I am hallowed in you before their eyes. For I will take you from among the nations, gather you out of all countries, and bring you into your own land." The promise goes on to say that God will put a new spirit within them. That hasn't happened yet. Israel is still secular - but already it's beginning to happen. Israelis are already softening towards the gospel. Just in the last decade or so, there's been a very great many conversions to the Lord. Soon conversions will explode and "all Israel will be saved" as it says in Romans 11:26. (Zechariah 12:10 says Israel will mourn the pierced One.") We have a lot of baggage from Adventism, River; so be patient with us. We used to believe Ellen White was a true prophet of God and she said that it wasn't any use to go to Israel and try to make converts. She said: "I saw that Old Jerusalem never would be built up," in "Early Writings" - the chapter called "The Gathering Time." I'm actually glad Ellen White said that. At least ONE nation will be protected from the horrible, subtle heresy that God delivered us from!!! After reading Ezekiel 36, go on to read the next two chapters. It's really scary what's going to happen, though we don't have to be afraid. Magog (Russia), Persia (Iran) and a bunch of others are going to band together and attack Israel. Then God's going to defend Israel. Look what's happening in the Middle East already! Iran and Russian have gotten together and now Turkey is joining in... It's going to happen folks. I'm beginning to learn that it isn't only Adventism that believes in "replacement theology." Some Christians do too, though I cannot see HOW they possibly can. How could a tiny nation, just born, with very little troops and weaponry; survive against ALL those big Arab countries, unless God was doing it? | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 1897 Registered: 5-2007  |
Asurprise, Amen, you said it well. None of us are saved because of our own works or righteousness. Present day Israel is blinded by unbelief. The promises of God toward Israel in her apostacy gives hope to the whole fallen world. Fearless Phil | ||
| Jody Registered user Username: Jody Post Number: 87 Registered: 7-2007 |
Asurprise, What do u mean replacement theology? If u mean the belief that the Church replaces Isreal then u misunderstand. Most if not all Coveneant Theologians do not believe that the Church replaces Isreal but that God has 1 Chosen people on the Earth.In the ot this was the Jews and a few Gentiles,but after Pentecost it was the Jews and a big bunch of Gentiles.God today has 1 chosen people on the Earth and their is only 1 way of salvation for the Jew and the Greek (See Romans 1)The teaching that Jews will be saved some other way is bogus and I dont expect to see the Jews rebuild the Temple any more than i xpect to see a Sunday Law passed.To call it replacement theology really misrepresents the teaching because that is not what is bein taught. Jody | ||
| Jody Registered user Username: Jody Post Number: 88 Registered: 7-2007 |
I also would like to add that we should interpret the less clear passages of scripture with the ones that are clear. To me Ephesians 2 is pretty clear. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 5733 Registered: 9-2006 |
Jody, I don't believe Asurprise was saying that Israel would be saved some other way than thru Jesus Christ our Lord, but it is entirely possible for the Lord to open the blind eyes of the Jews, the same as it is for the gentile. What is unclear about this passage?: Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. Romans 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: Romans 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. Romans 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. Romans 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. What exactly does anybody not understand about this scripture? River | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 1096 Registered: 7-2007 |
Well, perhaps it's called by some other name then. I thought it was called "replacement theology." What I'm talking about is the notion that some Christians have that since Israel disobeyed God, that the promises to Israel are to be for the church instead. It's clear from Ezekiel 36-39 (and other passages) that God has a specific plan for the nation of Israel, and as you can see; He's bringing it to pass. As to salvation; Jews and Gentiles are saved in exactly the same way - by believing on Jesus - accepting His sacrifice for them. There's no other way to be saved - for anyone. Also I'd like to point out that Jesus broke down the dividing wall between Jew and Gentile. (Ephesians 2:14,15) All who accept Jesus' sacrifice for themselves are ONE in Christ. Bskillet; you said that God won't continue the Sinaitic covenant with Israel. I agree. You can see from Ezekiel 36:26,27; that God will bring them into the New Covenant of the Spirit that those of us who have been saved now enjoy. (see also 2nd Corinthians 3:7,8) | ||
| Cordurb Registered user Username: Cordurb Post Number: 42 Registered: 4-2009 |
we need to be very careful not to forsake Israel. Has God abandoned His people? Certainly not. check out www.joelstrumpet.com check out his DVDs on Islam and the End times. There are plenty of scriptures detailing God's promises to Israel. Pray for the peace of Jerusalem. | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 1098 Registered: 7-2007 |
Also God will judge those nations that divide up His land. The governments that try to get Israel to give up land for peace must not know (or believe) the Bible; because otherwise they wouldn't dare suggest such a course of action! (I think Americans were evacuating New Orleans because of Katrina, about the time Israelis were evacuating Gaza, so that Gaza could be given to the Palestinians. Coincidence???) Anyway, there are lots of clear passages concerning Israel in the end times. And it's obvious that Israel didn't win the war of independence. No, God won it for them. And Ezekiel 36:26,27 will come true for Israel (I think it's already starting) and so will Zechariah 12:10 and Romans 11:26 | ||
| Pegg Registered user Username: Pegg Post Number: 591 Registered: 2-2006 |
Thanks to everyone for your answers and insights. We have quite a balance here, which I find quite useful. Pegg | ||
| Pegg Registered user Username: Pegg Post Number: 597 Registered: 2-2006 |
Hi Guys! I have shared your comments with my friend. I want to share his response with you. In my youth I attended very conservative churches, with lots of emphasis on prophecy and end-times. They tended to be pretty thoroughly Dispensational. So, "literal unless absurd" was the mantra. But I found, as I think you are finding, that if, instead of following a particular (modern) doctrinal stance and interpretative method you are trying honestly to discern the intent of the original writer, you find that some of the writings probably are meant to be understood literally while others are meant to be understood figuratively. It's extremely difficult to come to very firm conclusions about these things. I feel like the best that an honest interpreter can do is suggest possibilities. He or she may favor one approach, and that's fine, but when it becomes a hard line certainty I begin either to doubt the interpreter's knowledge or his integrity.Thanks Again For All Your Insights. Pegg | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 1100 Registered: 7-2007 |
Revelation is pretty impossible for me to understand - at least for the most part; but here are some clear things about Israel: 1. Israel is back in the middle-east, in some of the exact same territory that it had when God gave it to them. Over and over again it's in the news, and Colleen visited it. 2. It would be impossible for Israel to exist if God hadn't worked miracles in each of it's wars with the surrounding Arab nations. 3. Because Israel is there and obviously God put it there, I believe the following verses in Ezekiel 36:22-24 are literal: I'm quoting this from the NASB version: "Therefore say to the house of Israel, 'Thus says the Lord God, "It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am about to act, but for My holy name, which you have profaned among the nations where you went. I will vindicate the holiness of My great name which has been profaned among the nations, which you have profaned in their midst. Then the nations will know that I am the Lord," declares the Lord God, "when I prove Myself holy among you in their sight. For I will take you from the nations, gather you from all the lands and bring you into your own land." Read the verses before this and the verses afterward. It's really clear that the Lord means literal Israel. (Otherwise Israel's land would be populated by Christians from all countries instead.) I'm looking forward to when God fulfills Ezekiel 36:25-27 to them! | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 10674 Registered: 12-2003 |
Pegg, did your pastor write those observations above? Whoever it is clearly is comfortable with the discussion even though it's a difficult subject. I remember reading your pastor's comments about another subject recently, and the comments above sound like they're approached with a similar sort of thought-process and comparison of Scriptural genres. Colleen | ||
| Brian3 Registered user Username: Brian3 Post Number: 244 Registered: 8-2005  |
Just a quick note. Ezekiel was a contemporary of Jeremiah and was exiled to Babylon while Jeremiah stayed in Jerusalem. I also believe those verses in Ezekiel were literal. He wrote them from exile with the rest of the captive Israelite's prior to their return to the land which those verses prophesied.
In Christ, Brian | ||
| Pegg Registered user Username: Pegg Post Number: 599 Registered: 2-2006 |
Yes, Colleen. He is a serious scholar. I have only known one other who is as disciplined and respectful in approaching the context of Scripture and the intent of the autho whom God chose prior to trying to jump forward to application. That other person was the Assistant Pastor of the former SDA church who mentored me during my transition. With these guys it's about what it SAYS, not about what they want it to say, or what they think it says or even having an answer or not. They have no compunction against saying, "I don't know." Pegg | ||
| Jrossb Registered user Username: Jrossb Post Number: 23 Registered: 5-2007 |
A Continuing Promise to Israel? Thanks Pegg for initiating this subject. In my previous "Whitewashed religious life" this subject as it pertains to "especially prophesy" would have been bundled up and put up on the highest shelf in the too hard basket. Like most of us I FOUND JESUS AS A PERSONAL saviour via the scriptural Gospel. As I kept on studying the subject of prophesy kept coming up and would't go away. I personally decided to give it a real shake to see if there was anything "extra" to add to "God's brilliant Gospel" WOW what an additive to back up what I have experienced. I go to an Australian publication, John R Ecob's manual "The Bible Prophecy Handbook" published by the editorial committee of the Herald and Hope magazine PO Box 4216 Marayong, NSW 2148. Their web site can be accessed at www.heraldofhope.org.au At the very beginning of the book he refers to Isaiah 46:9-10, "Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none like me, Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying My counsel will stand, and I will do all my pleasure" Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. (2 Timothy 2:15). "We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto the light that shines in the dark, place until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: knowing this first, that no prophecy of scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the "Holy Ghost" (2 Peter 1:19-21). In the preface of the book, the first paragraph gives a brief history of the evolution of the manual, which is an extension of a series of booklets written by the author. Quoting "This Bible Prophecy Handbook is an extension of these booklets entitled "Keys to Bible Prophecy" and has prepared to provide a manual for the average Christian who wishes to become better acquainted with Bible Prophecy. It provides a comprehensive coverage of all the major elements expressed in simple terminology Theological terminology has been deliberately avoided. More than 100 charts, maps and graphics have been included to illustrate and clarify the subject under discussion. Many of these have been used as visual aids in conference ministry across Australia. The index of illustrations will prove valuable when seeking to recall particular charts and maps. To assist the reader, relevant Scriptures have been included, rather than merely referenced. This feature permits a continuous flow of thought not possible when when reading is interupted for the purpose of checking references. however, other Scripture references are included for those who wish to examine the subject in greater detail. Some repition has been unaviodable in order to provide completeness of thought in each segment of the book, but this will also serve as a memory aid to readers less familiar with the subject of Bible prophecy. The teachings presented within the pages of this book as the truth of God's word is unashamedly the premillennial return of Jesus Christ, which was the position held by the early Church to the 4th centuary and revived again since the 16th centuary, It has however the advantage that it is written at a point of time in history which is unique; it follows the restoration of Israel to the land in fulfilment of many prophecies. Since the vast majority of prophetic Scriptures centre on Israels role in the last days, scripture which needed to be taken by faith 100 years ago can now be seen in the process of fulfilment. Other major historical events which are foretold in Scripture and may be observed today are: the rise of the European Union (EU) which gives every indication that it is the revived Roman Empire, the collapse of the USSR which released a million Jews, the rise of fundamentalist Islamic revolution in 1979, Russias links with the Muslim world, and the appearance of Tarshish (Britain) and her young lions (America and Australia) linked in a military coalition. Add to this the rising might of the "kings of the east," Turkey's swing towards Islam, America's alignment with nations on the Arabian Peninsular (Sheba and Dedran), the population expolsion, increased knowledge and travel, apostacy in the Church, not to mention the spread of pestilence and the increse in the number of wars. One would have to be blind not to realize that the world is hurtling towards the Great Tribulation. The Rapture could take place at any time. If there is one thing that this handbook has sought to achieve, it is identification of the alignment of participant nations as we draw close to the end of the age. The stage is being set for the final act, and when the curtain goes up events will be played out with great rapidity. The authors prayer is that God will use this message to stir believers into Holy living and that the unsaved might be warned. Perhapse it may be useful after the rapture to give the Jews, God's "roadmap" to their eternal future. John R Ecob." (End of quote) Interesting most of the points raised are addressed in this manual. I am NOT saying that every jot and tittle is absolute and perfect that there still much to be revealed,(as we are all looking through a glass darkly, but I am very much of the opinion that with the overwhelming scriptural evidence presented throughout the Old as well as the New Testament we have clear enough guidelines and way-marks to get us through the pending turbulance with nothing to fear (eternally)- God promises us we will be protected - should we have to "stand up for our faith" God is good - He is still in charge -Jesus is the only way - we CAN go home eternally with Him. JRossB |
