| Author | Message | ||
| Surfy Registered user Username: Surfy Post Number: 606 Registered: 11-2007 |
Didn't mean to hijack this thread but it's called ChickCan or Beer Can Chicken. Found it at the hardware store. Designed for the barbque but works great in the oven. Beer works. So does soda. I'm thinking about trying a can of pineapple or mango juice next time. Surfy | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 1900 Registered: 5-2007  |
Wow, As an SDA kid, I was anemic twice and came close to death both times. Mother fed me a multitude of concoctions but never raw eggs in grape juice. I guess mother didn't pay much attention to Ellen's instructions.  But then, dad was a renaged and refused to have any of her books in our home. The only thing being my copy of 'Steps To Christ'. Fearless Phil | ||
| Pegg Registered user Username: Pegg Post Number: 585 Registered: 2-2006 |
Paul sets clear precedent for both non-conformance and compromise with others' customs. In Galatians he tells of an incident that happened in Antioch. But when Peter came to Antioch, I had to oppose him to his face, for what he did was very wrong. When he first arrived, he ate with the Gentile Christians, who were not circumcised. But afterward, when some friends of James came, Peter wouldn’t eat with the Gentiles anymore. He was afraid of criticism from these people who insisted on the necessity of circumcision. As a result, other Jewish Christians followed Peter’s hypocrisy, and even Barnabas was led astray by their hypocrisy.Here we see that Paul is clearly willing to confront hypocrisy and unwilling to allow anything that will give his new baby Gentile believers any idea that they must somehow become Jews to be good Christians. The truth of the Gospel that salvation is FREE has been placed in jeopardy by Peter's actions. This brings swift and fearless action from Paul. However, he doesn't always act this way! In Acts 18 we have a terse comment about him following Jewish custom. Paul stayed in Corinth for some time after that, then said good-bye to the brothers and sisters and went to nearby Cenchrea. There he shaved his head according to Jewish custom, marking the end of a vow. Then he set sail for Syria, taking Priscilla and Aquila with him. - Acts 18:18.Here we are given very little information about Paul's reasoning for taking this very Jewish action. However, we are given some clear insight into his reasoning later on. The next day Paul went with us to meet with James, and all the elders of the Jerusalem church were present. After greeting them, Paul gave a detailed account of the things God had accomplished among the Gentiles through his ministry.But this was not enough. Look what happened next: The seven days were almost ended when some Jews from the province of Asia saw Paul in the Temple and roused a mob against him. They grabbed him, yelling, “Men of Israel, help us! This is the man who preaches against our people everywhere and tells everybody to disobey the Jewish laws. He speaks against the Temple—and even defiles this holy place by bringing in Gentiles.” (For earlier that day they had seen him in the city with Trophimus, a Gentile from Ephesus, and they assumed Paul had taken him into the Temple.)From these passages we can see that 1 - It Paul was not shy about sticking up for the principle of the Gospel.So how does all of this apply to your Thanksgiving turkey? I'm not going to go there!  Here's the lesson I would like to point out. The Gospel is not about eating turkey or not. The purpose Gift we have been freely given was not so that we could eat turkey or bacon or anything else. The purpose of the Gift was to free us from the bondage of sin unto salvation. No amount of abstaining or good works could ever earn it for us. "When people work, their wages are not a gift, but something they have earned. But people are counted as righteous, not because of their work, but because of their faith in God who forgives sinners. - Romans 4:4-5..."Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus...Who dares accuse us whom God has chosen for his own? No one—for God himself has given us right standing with himself. Who then will condemn us? No one—for Christ Jesus died for us and was raised to life for us, and he is sitting in the place of honor at God’s right hand, pleading for us." - Romans 8:1, 33-34This Is The Message We Are Charged To Convey At Our Thanksgiving Tables. Pegg  (Message edited by pegg on November 16, 2009) | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 1901 Registered: 5-2007 |
Pegg, I agree with you totally. In the incident I related earlier, I had no intention of upsetting anyone. I didn't anticipate the reactions of my cousins. When ever possible, Jan and I would eat somewhere where it would not offend them. I just related it incident to illustrate how things can get out of control without me planning it that way. Fearless Phil | ||
| Pegg Registered user Username: Pegg Post Number: 586 Registered: 2-2006 |
Yes, they do. The fireworks are not about what we eat and drink... They are about being able to purchase the Gift and earn its maintenance. Pegg (Message edited by pegg on November 16, 2009) | ||
| Skeeter Registered user Username: Skeeter Post Number: 447 Registered: 12-2007 |
Cortney, I can see where your SDA family members might be offended if you were to serve ham or any of the other so called "unclean" foods when they are there... it would probably seem to them that you were purposely trying to offend them,,, which would be wrong.. BUT to serve TURKEY or any other food that is NOT on the SDA list of unclean foods.. I dont see how they could take offense to that. Just let them know which foods contain meat products and let them make their own choices for the meal. Last Thanksgiving our daughter and her husband (of one month at the time) came here for Thanksgiving. We had our normal meal including turkey and a beef roast. The only thing I did differently was to cook part of the dressing outside of the turkey and made a non meat based gravy for them. Other than that,, there was plenty of food for them (him) to eat (she chose to eat turkey sitting beside her husband) I would not have served pork with him here as I feel that would be disrespectful to his beliefs even though I no longer hold those beliefs myself. Christmas they came over after having had dinner with his (SDA) parents and we had already eaten... and I did serve both a roast and a spiral baked ham here. It was the first time I EVER served pork (was pretty darned good too) :-) Anyway,,, if they get offended over you having a "clean" turkey.... let them have their meal someplace else and then come over to visit. Just my opinion.... | ||
| Skeeter Registered user Username: Skeeter Post Number: 448 Registered: 12-2007 |
We always do our Holiday meals "potluck" style. Everything is prepared and set out in the kitchen, everyone grabs a plate (serve the little kids first) and puts on what they want and then finds a place to sit... some sit at the dining room table, some in the living room watching a football game, some on the front deck... where ever they feel most comfortable. There is always plenty of food for the carnivores and any vegetarians alike... thankfully there is only one (son in law) who claims to be a complete vegan (no dairy) and even he makes exceptions when he comes here cause he has no qualms at all about eating the pies and fudge etc which I use pure cream, butter and eggs in. My husband tells me I always go overboard on Holidays,, but I enjoy cooking for everyone and like to make sure there is always plenty for everyone to take home leftovers :-) | ||
| Bb Registered user Username: Bb Post Number: 601 Registered: 7-2004 |
I've had the raw egg in the grape juice! Blehhh! I made sure never to say I was feeling "tired" again! | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 763 Registered: 3-2009 |
I have a brother who would go to the chicken nest and take the egg right there and just crack it and emptied it in his mouth. No juice. No coffee, no chocolate, just plain egg. Hec | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 10659 Registered: 12-2003  |
I'll never forget the time I first cooked turkey for Thanksgiving when my SDA relatives were visiting. I made plenty of veggie food, too, but I put a turkey breast in the oven with the Mock Turkey. Well, inexperienced as I was, I didn't realize how long the frozen partial turkey would really take. It wasn't done when everything else was done, and we had to wait for it. My in-laws, who take EGW dead seriously, refuse to allow any morsel of food or drink besides water to pass their lips between meals—which must be eaten between four and five hours apart. They sat on the couch: two parents and an aunt—with their arms folding and unfolding and serious disapproval on their faces—waiting for that turkey. They were not amused. Richard told me later that it wasn't just the idea of waiting for the turkey--it was the fact that the turkey molecules were mingling with the Mock Turkey molecules, and the vegetarian food was being contaminated. A few years later the women's Bible study leaders were discussing a passage from 1 Cor re: not offending and not causing a brother to sin by what we eat. I brought up this incident and asked what I should have done. Many women spoke up and said, "When they're visiting, don't cook meat if it offends them." Elizabeth Inrig, our leader, however, cut in a said with some emphasis, "No, this is an issue of what you do in your own house. No one has a right to tell you what to do in your own house. You were not doing something wrong by cooking meat in your own house." As I've thought it through, I've concluded exactly what River said near the top of this thread: we read this "do not offend" passages backwards. Paul's advice was for Christians not to give new believers permission to indulge in behaviors THEY consider to be sinful reminders of their past unbelief. In other words, he was telling mature Christians not to eat the meat they knew was offered to the pagan idols so the newly converted Christians wouldn't feel they had permission to cling on to the practices that reminded them of their recently abandoned idol-worship. Our cooking meat in front of Adventists may offend them, but it is not causing them to sin. They don't have to eat it; their own rules allow for the use of clean meat. Moreover, our cooking meat in front of them is not pulling them backward toward a divided heart and a false god. Quite the contrary--their discomfort is caused by the fact that their false gospel requires abstaining from foods God created to be enjoyed. Their beliefs are doctrines of demons, according to 1 Timothy 4:1-4. When we refuse, in our own homes, to live with the integrity and freedom of the gospel as the Bible teaches us to do, we are allowing our Adventist family's false doctrines to have more power than our freedom in Jesus. The circumstance where Paul chastised Peter for acting like a Jew in front of the Gentiles is a parallel but inverted circumstance to our refusing to cook turkey just because our SDA relatives are coming. Peter was supposed to eat Gentile food with the Gentiles; he abstained because of fear of judgment from the Jews. We are called to love our enemies and do good to those who hate us. We are not called to change our freedom to eat whatever God has created and to give thanks for it just because people who believe false doctrines come into our house. As River said, that's backwards. The instruction not to offend was written to accommodate new believers as well as still-unconverted pagans. Christians were never to give the impression that they honored pagan gods. But eating turkey is not honoring a pagan god--even in an Adventists' eyes. Giving it up in front of them is only calming their cognitive dissonance and allowing their manipulation to bring their bondage into our home. I guess I have some strong feelings about this, huh? Colleen | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 5741 Registered: 9-2006  |
Quick kids, run to the refer and hide the meat’ Our relatives are coming, near the end of the week’ Hide it in the garage or maybe behind the street’ Dig a hole for the bacon, dig it three feet deep’ Aunt Polly has a nose, that would make a hound dog weep’ Turn the tv off Friday, no cartoons for you. Our relatives are a comin’ Don’t let them see you’ But what about Jesus Dad? And Sunday school this week’ I have Sunday lessons, about hypocrites so deep’ Forget about Jesus Billy, wait till Sabbath is past’ Then we’ll be rid of them, we can go get the gas’ Then when its over, we’ll invite Jesus back in’ Don’t tell him we are ashamed, because our hearts he did win’ Don’t give me that confused look boy, you don’t understand’ How our Adventist relatives, can get out of hand’ One day you’ll know, how we put Jesus outside’ Because we were afraid, our relatives would not abide’ Sniffle, sniffle, little Cindy was sad’ Because she saw, through her Mom and Dad’ Sure enough when the week end was past’ And grandma and grandpa, was gone at last’ We went to church, and sang with a blast’ Stand up, stand up for Jesus, ye soldiers of the cross’ Lift high his royal banner, it must not suffer loss’ | ||
| Pegg Registered user Username: Pegg Post Number: 588 Registered: 2-2006 |
Yes, and I'm sure I would too, had I had the experience you've described, (along with, I suspect, much more you haven't told about here). What bothers me, Colleen, is the tone (please correct me if I have interpreted it wrongly - it's difficult on the board, you know) that there's one 'right' way to approach this situation. You said: Now you have me wondering - where Christian Freedom is in all of this? As Christians are we not free to serve our families anything we wish to? I don't want to make a judgment about how you serve your family in your home. Why should you do this to me? Are we free only to cause offense, but not free to choose to avoid causing offense? I don't think the advice in Romans was only to avoid the appearance of honoring pagan gods. Paul said elsewhere that he DID eat meat that had been offered to idols. If this had been about the pagan god appearance stuff he wouldn't have said or done that. I think this is about just what it looks like it's about - offending the sensibilities of more sensitive persons. And if this isn't enough look at Acts 15. Here we have the Jerusalem Council giving direction to gentile believers "to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood." (vs. 20) Then James adds, "For Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath." (vs. 21) I think this situation arose in much the way that we might have seen Phil's family complaining about the bacon smells wafting from his campsite. Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, "The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to obey the law of Moses." (vs. 5)I can just hear it all now: "Enough is enough, Paul! It's okay already if God wants to let these dirty gentiles into our midst and give them the Holy Spirit, but Christianity is a Jewish faith. The Messiah came to us, don't you know? We are the seed of Abraham. If they want to be part of Christianity, now they should clean up their act and show respect to God. They need to be circumcised and keep all of the Law of Moses."At this I can just hear the gentile reprsentitives in the group speaking up. "No way! That is over the top! You may have been circumcised when you were 8 days old, but there is just no way we're going to all get cut! Paul, isn't that so? Is salvation wages or is it a Gift?"Here the Pharisee group starts wining again. "Well they look so weird. The least they could do is dress like us."Back to the gentiles. "Oh get off it! There's no way we're going to start wearing those curly thingies on the sides of or hair or put tassels on our clothes. Is the Kingdom of Heaven made of such of this?"The Pharisee group: "But Paul! How can you expect us to call these gentiles brothers when they eat meat that has been offered to idols? You know there's only one God. It's just disgusting!"Compromise is called for: "Okay, we can understand how you feel about that. We don't need to purchase from the temple meat markets. It's not a big deal if that'll make you happy."But the Pharisees aren't through: "And Paul, want about sexual deviance? You know how these gentiles act!"Now this is an uncalled for accusation! "Whoa! Just who are you calling sexually immoral? We may have been pagans, but we are Christians now! We certainly want no part of sexual immorality anyways, so you don't have to worry about that."The Pharisees just go on and on. "Well, you know we have to eat with you guys when we meet for the Lord's Supper, that bloody meat you eat and that strangled stuff. It's just disgusting. It makes us want to puke."Here brotherly love takes over: "Okay, that's fine. We can live with that too. No bloody meat and strangled stuff. Anything else???" "No, I guess that's about it." Then the apostles and elders, with the whole church, decided to choose some of their own men and send them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas. They chose Judas (called Barsabbas) and Silas, two men who were leaders among the brothers. With them they sent the following letter: The apostles and elders, your brothers, To the Gentile believers in Antioch, Syria and Cilicia: Greetings. We have heard that some went out from us without our authorization and disturbed you, troubling your minds by what they said. So we all agreed to choose some men and send them to you with our dear friends Barnabas and Paul— men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore we are sending Judas and Silas to confirm by word of mouth what we are writing. It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements: You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things. Farewell.And so harmony was restored and all of the believers learned to live together without offending each other. To understand this indecent any other way is to concede that, indeed, there is a (shortened to be sure) list of things one must DO to maintain salvation. As you know, this is exactly the interpretation SDA applies to this verse. Now Colleen, I'm not saying that you or anyone else shouldn't handle your Christian Freedom in any way you find yourself called to do. I just do not think there is support in Scripture for setting a hard and fast rule of integrity regarding the matter of what kind of food we choose to feed our families. I choose to pick my battles. As I said earlier, the firestorm is not about what kind of food is or is not available to eat. The fireworks are about whether we maintain some control in obtaining and keeping our salvation. It's about if Jesus is sufficient, which leaves us in the humanly uncomfortable position of vulnerability. In this position we are helpless, fully reliant on His great love. I prefer to keep the lines of the discussion clean. At my house I don't want the discussion to be about food. When God offers me a moment to testify of Him, I want to talk about the bondage of sin He has set me free from and the assurance and joy He has brought into my life. Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. Romans 4:4-5...Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man, in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit...What, then, shall we say in response to this? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? As it is written:"For your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered." No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 8:1-4, 31-39...Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath. But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. Eph.2:3-10 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life. 1 John 5:13There Is So Much Of Importance That I Want To Say To My Family - Why Should We Use Up Our Time And Energy Talking About What We Eat? Pegg | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 10664 Registered: 12-2003 |
Pegg, of course you shouldn't feel you have to serve food with which you and your family would be uncomfortable when you are together. You are totally free to make the decision based on the dynamics of your family. I agree--there is no RIGHT or WRONG way to do this. I am saying that just because our Adventist family would be uncomfortable or upset with our serving the Thanksgiving turkey doesn't mean we should refrain. It is a personal judgment call...but it's not an issue that would make us morally guilty if we "offend" them. I can understand quite an incendiary reaction if we chose to exercise our right to serve ham or shrimp at a family holiday meal where the guests were all Adventist. But even within Adventism, clean meats are officially not a "sin". I just talked with a member of my women's small group this evening. Her best friend for the past few decades is an Adventist. My group colleague was struggling tonight, feeling "foggy" and having a LOT of trouble focussing on our passage from 1 Timothy 6 where Paul discusses fighting the good fight of faith, taking a hard-line stance against false doctrine, and defending the true gospel. After Bible study we talked a bit. Turns out her friend had visited this last week from another state. My "study mate" has been reading Proclamation for the past couple of years, and she's more and more seeing the reality of Adventism. She refused an EGW book from her friend some months ago, and her friend is becoming aware that S (my study mate) is disagreeing with Adventism from a more informed position. S, however, very much wants to keep peace with her friend who is like family to her. This past week, for the first time in their 30-year friendship, the SDA friend pointedly brought up "soul sleep" and defended it to S. S knows it's a false doctrine, but she was confounded by the proof texts. Moreover, she admitted she didn't want to discuss the things because she doesn't want to go to the obvious conclusion: their differences are more than superficial. I told her that her friend was drawing a line in the sand because she can tell S is resistant to Adventism in a way she wasn't before. S is actually quite disturbed by this whole thing, but she doesn't want to "go there" and deal with it. Meanwhile, the discomfort grows. I never think it's OK to be challenging or hostile with our "freedom". If we choose to serve meat in our own homes because we do not respond to people's manipulation, we should do so quietly while also providing food they will eat. At the same time, we have to be honest. The Adventist "privilege" is to bring up their own doctrine and defend it whenever they feel "impressed" to do so. Christians should not be less bold. If false doctrine is defended, we have an obligation to defend the faith. We have an obligation to live our faith clearly and without hiding. We never have a mandate for being heavy-handed or manipulative—even if they are. Of course we can choose which freedoms to indulge when they are around. But let's not think that by catering to their desires we will necessarily gain their interest or trust in hearing our point of view. Colleen | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 7733 Registered: 3-2004  |
Colleen wrote, "At the same time, we have to be honest. The Adventist "privilege" is to bring up their own doctrine and defend it whenever they feel "impressed" to do so. Christians should not be less bold. If false doctrine is defended, we have an obligation to defend the faith. We have an obligation to live our faith clearly and without hiding." I belong to a small women's group from my church. Last night we met. They all know I am former sda. One of the women is familiar with sdas. Visited the church once. She is a former Catholic. Last night she said that sdas are Christian. I could not keep silent and said "no, not in my opinion" and left it their. She does not want to hear why they are not or anything negative about them. I will pray for her and the others as they know nothing about adventism. Our awesome God has me there for a reason. I do not want to blow it. Diana L | ||
| Sparrow Registered user Username: Sparrow Post Number: 91 Registered: 10-2008  |
River, thanks for your rhyming post. I could actually hear a rap beat in the background, and I approve. As for my house, we will host a buffet luncheon on Saturday before Thanksgiving (just a few days from now). On Thanksgiving Day, I will be serving from the food line for the community and then join my family at my son and daughter-in-law's home. They will serve turkey and roast beef. I'll prepare a cornbread stuffing to take. Afterwards, I will serve desserts at my house in the evening. I intentionally do not invite relatives who are legalistic, rude, or whiners to large gatherings. It does not please the Lord and it upsets me. | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 1596 Registered: 6-2006  |
Oh man, I'm having my own issue with Thanksgiving this year. I'm spending it on a 4 day Mexican cruise. Now, I love my SDA family. We get along fine now and usually have a lot of fun together. However, it's been established by the parents that they want to have worship together as a family every morning. I could probably deal with that, but my anxiety is being around the one BIL who owns "Messiah's Mansion". That guy's main mission is preaching the sanctuary message, IJ and Satan the scapegoat theories. Whenever he gets around the parents, he has some kind of weird spell over them and they have come to appreciate just about everything he has to say. There's another BIL who I adore, has been a youth/associate SDA pastor but has become more and more liberal during the last couple of years. (Honestly the way he's living, I think he could very well be on his way out of the church). Anyway, you get these two guys together and see the fireworks fly! Where they used to be friends, they now have a huge wedge between them for going in such opposite directions. The liberal BIL called my husband the other night expressing his concern about all the "preaching" that could go on next week. He doesn't want to hear it, and hopes the parents don't start in as well. Very curious indeed! Here's my beef. I'm missing Thanksgiving with my own family. We always have tons of great food and laugher and a lot of fun together. I'm not thrilled about being away from them, but I'm especially anxious about dealing with crap from the BILs. If it wasn't for that, I wouldn't feel so resentful about going on this trip. At any rate, could y'all please pray for some peace on the trip and patience where needed? I'm trying to be positive, especially for my kids who are very excited, but I can't help up feel a little upset about it. Thanks for the vent! I just needed to get that off my chest. Leigh Anne | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 10666 Registered: 12-2003 |
Leigh Anne, I SO hear you. I'm praying now for you AND the family...when do you leave? Colleen | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 7738 Registered: 3-2004 |
Leigh Anne, Praying for you and your family on this cruise. I am asking that God shut the lion's mouth that he does not hurt you and your family. Our awesome God can do that. He did it for Daniel, he will do it for you. Diana L | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 5745 Registered: 9-2006 |
Aw, you just miss milking the cows and mucking the stalls. But here's prayers for you that the bunch don't drive you nuts for four days. River | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 770 Registered: 3-2009 |
Prayers here too. Now on the light side, be careful with those cruises. They serve unclean meats, and probably they use the same utensils to cook them as they use to cook the clean meats. Hec |
