| Author | Message | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 1092 Registered: 7-2007 |
A friend shared this with me: 1. You cannot please God with your good works (filthy rags.) 2. Good works do not wipe out sin. 3. Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin. 4. The wages of sin is death. 5. The only way to pay for sin is to die. 6. Either we die for our sin or we accept Jesus' death for our sin. 7. We have no righteousness of our own. 8. We have to be as good as God to get into Heaven. We can only accomplish that through the righteousness of Jesus. 9. Jesus' blood paid for the sins of the WHOLE world. Even the sins of the unbelievers. 10. All sin was paid for at the cross - past, present and future. 11. Only one sin can cause you to be lost. There is only one unforgivable sin. That is rejecting Jesus' death on our behalf for our sins. 12. Salvation is a free gift. There's nothing we can do to earn it and there is nothing we can do to lose it. 13. Since Jesus paid for all sin - past, present and future; what sin can cause us to lose our salvation? 14. That's the gospel. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 10651 Registered: 12-2003  |
That's good, Asurprise. Thank you! Colleen | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 1093 Registered: 7-2007 |
You're welcome  I was surprised to find out when I learned what the gospel really was, that even my FUTURE sins were forgiven! It took me awhile to get this. Adventists are kept from understanding what the New Testament (new covenant) is REALLY saying because of what Ellen White wrote. I just wrote back to one of my SDA relatives. We write frequently back and forth. She refuses to let me read anything out of the Bible to her on the phone, but she perfectly willing to email back and forth. (It's like Biblical ping-pong.) She's so close to the gospel and yet SO FAR!!! She cannot quite "get" the gospel, and it's not easy to explain to someone blinded by Ellen White. Here's some of what I wrote: quote: The apostle John writes that the believers sins have been forgiven. Obviously those people he was writing to, would have sinned before they got to read his letter. The apostle Paul wrote to believers saying that they have been saved. He couldn't have written that if their future sins weren't forgiven. They couldn't have been saved (past tense) otherwise. "I write to you little children, because your sins are forgiven you for His names sake." 1st John 2:12 "For by grace you HAVE BEEN SAVED through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast." Eph. 2:8,9 "Who has SAVED us and called us with a holy calling..." 2 Tim. 1:9 "not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He SAVED us..." Titus 3:5,6 Now that I have been saved, I'm one with God in spirit (1st Corinthians 6:17) and He keeps me saved (1st Peter 1:5). When you get saved, you'll see what I mean! Love, Dianne P.S. Seventh-day Adventists will NEVER be able to say they are sinless in this life. "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." 1st John 1:8 So Ellen White is WRONG! The gospel is such radical good news. Seventh-day Adventists, Roman Catholics, J.Witnesses, Mormons and even some in real Christian churches have no idea what the gospel means. There's a chapel at the facility where I work. One day I stopped by on my break just for somewhere different to go. There was a Roman Catholic man whom I'd been trying to witness to inside. When I saw him I again started witnessing to him, telling him that salvation is a free gift. I told me that he knew that salvation is a free gift and I wondered if he'd finally "got" it. There was a sad, tortured look to his eyes though, that I wondered about. Then he said something like: "that's why I'm here - to thank God for my salvation. If I don't He might take it away." Those words explained everything - the haunted look - and showed that he certainly was NOT saved. | ||
| Lori Registered user Username: Lori Post Number: 93 Registered: 11-1999 |
Hi, everyone, I haven't visited FAF in quite a while--it's been about 8 years since I was a "regular" on the forum. I do have a question to run by you all but first I would like to express my deep gratitude to those of you who are so dedicated to this site. I first came here as a newly shocked former adventist who didn't really know what to think when my personal Bible study caused the Adventist doctrines to fall one by one. I found Mark Martins website first and then FAF. It was wonderful to share with the group here!!! And I will always be grateful for the fellowship and affirmation I found here. Now for my question: I've been recently talking to a friend from Academy days. Of course, we have inevitably have hit doctrinal issues. Being that I no longer silently agree--I did present my objections to the Adventist beliefs. I have been surprised to encounter an unusual objection (for an Adventist) in regard to Christ and Christ alone for salvation. It was not the Sabbath--not directly anyway. The argument was more than believing in Christ was necessary for salvation because, as the Bible says, even demons believe. Of course, this was easily explained by including the entire text. "You believe in one God. Good. Even the demons believe and shudder" James 2:19 (And, I think the explanation was fully accepted) The other argument put forth was in regard to Paul teaching to the Athienians (Acts 17) The Athienian philosophers were excited to hear of Pauls new information--that is until Paul spoke of Christ's death, resurrection and ascension. My friend said something about Paul changing his approach after this (since he was not successful in converting them) Hereafter he claims Paul was compelled to only teach the love of Christ. Therefore, his conclusion is...in addition to believing in Christ you have to love in order to be saved. I'm not trying to say that love is not part of the process of being a Christian and growing in grace...I'm just curious as to where this idea came from-Paul stopped teaching the Gospel and only taught the love of Christ. Does this sound like a familiar concept to anyone, something you remember from your Adventist years? My only train of thought is that if you require "love of God" for salvation then you can attach the Sabbath and the Old Covenant as things you will do out of this love. But so far that connection has not been presented. Any ideas where to source of this might come from?? I've looked through the few EGW books I still have and there is nothing in them about Acts 17. | ||
| Skeeter Registered user Username: Skeeter Post Number: 463 Registered: 12-2007 |
Lori, I too have had this verse, " "You believe in one God. Good. Even the demons believe and shudder" James 2:19 " thrown out at me,, but always along with it was the one saying "faith without works is dead being alone" and "show me your faith without works and I will show you my faith by my works. " of course that always kept me afraid of not "keeping" the Ten Commandments and of course since all the others are (to an SADA mind) pretty cut and dry and no Christian would knowingly break any of those it always came down to "proper" observance of the 4th... and no one seems to be able to agree on just what "proper observance" consists of. (sigh) Francie | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 1602 Registered: 6-2006  |
Hi Lori, great to see you in here again! Here's what Paul says about the gospel and salvation - it's the purest explanation of the gospel, nothing added to it, plain and simple. 1 Corinthians 15 1Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2 By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain. 3For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance[a]: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures Interesting that your friend said that. The love of God sounds great, but it's obviously a byproduct of salvation. I've never heard that theory either. Usually it's keep the Sabbath! You're right, I'm sure that follows - "If you love God, you'll keep the sabbath". Brother. I'd like to know the answer too, in case this comes up in my family... Leigh Anne | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 10686 Registered: 12-2003 |
I actually have heard this argument...that Paul's preaching in Athens "didn't work", so he changed his presentation. It was not too long ago that I heard a reference to that, but I can't remember where I heard it. It wasn't a "primary source"--it was someone referring to the argument. The actual Bible passage, however, doesn't give a hint of that conclusion. The sermon in Athens is found in Acts 17. The last three verses of the chapter say this:
There's no such thing as Paul's "formula" not working, eventuating his changing his message. The chapter ends with a clear statement that some believed. The point of Acts 17 32-33 is that those Athenians were hard-hearted; they did not believe. It wasn't because Paul's message was wrong. That idea is blasphemous. Leigh Anne is right; Paul never watered down the gospel. Always he declared the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus. The resurrection annoyed the Athenians because the Greeks accepted the idea of immortality, but they did not believe the body would be resurrected. They believed the only thing that was "real" and eternal was "spirit"; bodies were in the way and troublesome and limiting; the believed that at death, the spirits of people would be set free from the inhibitions of the body. They rejected the idea of bodies being redeemed. Colleen | ||
| Lori Registered user Username: Lori Post Number: 94 Registered: 11-1999 |
That's exactly what he told me...Paul's preaching "didn't work". But like you I see nothing in the chapter to support the claim that he changed his approach for a moment. Infact, I believe it says earlier in the chapter that he felt compelled by the Gospel to speak to them (this was not his usual crowd). James is a difficult book as it seems to have a lot of contradictions. "Seems" being the key word. However, most of the things make sense if you keep in mind the audience--unbelieving Jews. Thanks for taking the time to respond...if you happen to think of anything or find something please let me know. I'll be back.....I really didn't know how much I missed it here until I returned....it's like coming home. Lori | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 794 Registered: 3-2009 |
Hmmmmm Are they saying that since his preaching did not work, he changed it to something that worked? Then what do we do with Paul? Do we take his preaching before changing it or after changing it? Does that sound familiar? Maybe EGW? Hec | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 1603 Registered: 6-2006 |
I'm amazed by how easily SDA's discount Paul's teaching. I guess you'd have to ignore a HUGE portion of the NT in order to do that! I had one lady in facbook tell me "Isn't it nice that Paul came along to repudiate those pesky "how I love your law" passages that have been (and still are) cherished by God's followers for millenia?" I'm guessing this lady won't even read Paul's letters... Aye aye aye!! Leigh Anne | ||
| Lori Registered user Username: Lori Post Number: 95 Registered: 11-1999 |
Just a follow up... I heard back from my friend who quoted from a Review and Herald 1899--“It had been Paul's custom to adopt an oratorical style in his preaching. He was a man fitted to speak before kings, before the great and learned men of Athens, and his intellectual acquirements were often of value to him in preparing the way for the gospel. He tried to do this in Athens, meeting eloquence with eloquence, philosophy with philosophy, and logic with logic; but he failed to meet with the success he had hoped for. His after-sight led him to understand that there was something needed above human wisdom. God taught him that something above the world's wisdom must come to him. He must receive his power from a higher source. In order to convict and convert sinners, the Spirit of God must come into his work, and sanctify every spiritual development. He must eat the flesh and drink the blood of the Son of God. {RH, July 18, 1899 par. 10} He then adds.... So when Paul went to Corinth from Athens, he told the Corinthians: “And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God. For I determined not to know anything among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified. And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling. And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: that your faith should not stand in the wisdom of man, but in the power of God." His closing comment puzzles me...."The crucifixion is often sighted in conjunction with God’s love. I think that’s how I got my wires crossed. I thought about it later and realize that I didn’t have the wording right." I responded quoting Acts 17:34 "A few men became followers of Paul and believed. Among them was Dionysisus, a member of the Areopagus, also a woman named Damaris, and a number of others." Therefore, Paul's message was not in error--it hit it's mark--rather the message fell upon poor ground (Parable of the Sower). I also commented...I was hoping you would respond with Scripture. However, I realize this will fall on deaf ears....EGW is as good as Scripture to them. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 10699 Registered: 12-2003 |
Lori, I am actually astonished as I read that Ellen quote above. You know, I've heard that general argument about Paul sometime in the past...but now, the arrogance and dishonor it does to God who inspired every word and jot of Scripture, and of Paul who, as he professed over and over, was an apostle called and equipped by God to preach to the Gentiles...how dare Ellen suggest Paul preached to the Athenians "from the flesh" instead of by the power of the Spirit? To come up with that notion, one must have absolutely no confidence in Scripture being the revelation of God at work among men. Even the stories in Acts and the other historical books of the Bible are God-breathed for our instruction, correction, and edification. Even to suggest that Paul wasn't doing God's will when Scripture presents the story as Paul doing God's will is twisting Scripture and defying God's word. It's unbelievable. Good answer, by the way!! Colleen | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 1108 Registered: 7-2007 |
The devils "believe" in God, but they don't "trust" in Him. I heard a story about a man who crossed over Niagara Falls on a high wire. He was pushing a wheelbarrow back and forth and a crowd of people were watching. They believed just fine that he could do it, but when he asked the crowd for a volunteer to ride in the wheelbarrow, he had no takers. No one would trust him to carry them safely across! That's what we have to do. TRUST God to bring us across the uncrossable chasm!!! And He does it singlehandedly without us adding works to try to "help" save ourselves. Our good works are less than useless - they're filthy rags! It's curious how all the "religions" (man's efforts to get to God) are made up - at least in part - of works. Adventists say "oh no; we're saved by grace, but if we don't overcome and if we don't keep the Sabbath, we won't be saved, and if we don't .... etc. etc. etc. Islam says that if your "good works" outweigh your "bad works," then you'll go to heaven. The trouble is, a person HAS NO "good works" and even one "bad work" committed ONE TIME will cause a person to be forever lost. The good news is that Jesus did it ALL. | ||
| Lori Registered user Username: Lori Post Number: 96 Registered: 11-1999 |
Colleen, I agree!! What's so bad is 15 years ago I could have read that and seen nothing wrong with it. I know, for me, it was because I didn't spend enough time searching the Scriptures. I didn't really know for sure what the Bible said so I didn't have any frame of reference to reject it. I just listened to a sermon regarding "Devils Believe" which I found very interesting. Of course the Jews faith is being compared to the faith of a demon (which they detested). With the conclusion that the Jews belief in "the God" will bring them to the same destination as the demons belief brought them. Eternity in the lake of fire. Asurprise, I like the analogy. I've heard it before but forgotten it. Analogies are very effective.... I actually think demons do trust God. I think that is why they tremble. They know God is going to do what He says--they know their future. The angelic beings have already made their decision regarding God. The 1/3rd who left heaven to follow Satan have already sealed their future. Humanity still has a chance. The Jews believe God and they are arrogant. The demons believe in God and they tremble. Please pray for my friend. (We can just call him "James" since that's where our discussion began!) We are conversing through email. Yesterday he wrote me concerning his spiritual life (how it's not what it should be). I'm encouraging him to pray and read the Bible, no study helps...no EGW...just the Bible. This is the first Adventist person I have spoken to about Christianity in a very long time--please pray for me, too!! It's really the first SDA I've spoken to that has not become defense about their beliefs. He seems to be searching and I want him to search in the right place. Thanks so much and Happy Thanksgiving everyone!!! Lori | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 7768 Registered: 3-2004  |
Lori, what started me out of sadventism(not a typo) was reading the NT without any other books. This was at the suggestion of the SAD minister in our SS class. He did this just before Christmas 2003. I took him up on it and on Jan 1, 2004 started reading my Berkley Modern English Bible at Matthew. In that same time frame I refound Anderson's website about EGW. Before I read the Bible each time, I asked God to send the Holy Spirit to teach me. Why I did that I do not know. I, at the time, did not know I had a dead spirit that could be brought to life through the work of God and the Holy Spirit. As I read the NT I remember saying to my self, I know I read this sometime in my Sadventist education and it did not say this to me. John 3:16 really came to life. I learned about how much God loves me in that book. It is my favorite book now. Now, when I suggest to any one that they read the NT I tell them to start with the gospel of John. They will see how much God loves them. The rest of the gospels are read, then the rest of the Bible. May God give you the words to say to your friend. And everyone, Have a Thankful and Happy Thanksgiving. Diana L | ||
| Lori Registered user Username: Lori Post Number: 100 Registered: 11-1999 |
Hi, everyone, My conversations with James seem to be going well. He seems very receptive. I'm somewhat astounded by it all. Please keep us in your prayers--we have progressed to the explanation of righteousness by works and he seems to get it that it's not a 10 commandment/Sabbath list. Lori |
