| Author | Message | ||
| Jody Registered user Username: Jody Post Number: 80 Registered: 7-2007 |
I have been studying the Subject of the Millenium off and on for the last year.For the record I lean heavily towards the Amillenial view,however i admit i need to do much further study and i am very open to looking at other views.One view that i would reject is Dispensational PreMillenialism but thats another topic altogether. i have a question for those on the list that are better informed than me concerning the adventist view on the Milllenium.As near as i can tell adventists are Pre Mill but their view is unique in all of Christendom because they see Christ reigning in Heaven for a literal 1000 years after his second coming.We are supposedly with him for that time and come back to the Earth with him after the 1000 years.Supposedly it is during that time that we look over what God has done and look over the Books and get insight as to why certain people we knew are not there. My question is why do SDA's see the 1000 years takin place in Heaven and why dont historic Pre Mills see it that way? What is wrong with this view? Is this an Adventist view only? I would appreciate any feedback I could get on the subject of the Millenium especially as it relates to Adventism. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 10594 Registered: 12-2003  |
Adventists see the millennium this way, Jody, because of Ellen White. And historic Pre Mills don't see it this way because of Revelation 20 which clearly describes the millennium being on earth. In addition, prophecies in Isaiah (such as Isaiah 66) and Ezekiel and others have descriptions that also sound "millennial" and mesh with Revelation 20. Both testaments (OT prophets and Revelation) describe a millennium where Christ reigns but which precedes the new heaven and the new earth. Revelation 20 is the central passage, for me, that convinces me the millennium precedes the new heaven and new earth (the sequence is clearly described in that chapter) and occurs on earth before the final obliteration of all sin. Colleen | ||
| Surfy Registered user Username: Surfy Post Number: 596 Registered: 11-2007 |
Ellen White had a vision of people walking up stairs to heaven (Don't think that was the inspiration to Led Zep's Stairway to Heaven) and didn't she say it would take a week to get there? I remember the first time I saw a non adventist view on the millenium. Wow! Talk about opening my eyes for sure. Surfy | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 713 Registered: 3-2009 |
This is an issue that I don't understand yet. Why is Jesus coming to earth to reign in a sinful polluted earth? Why would He take 1000 years to do whatever convincing He has to do to the world? When He comes the second time, isn't He coming to usher eternity without sin? HMmm. I know this is not a salvation issue, but it would be nice to understand it. Hec | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 10597 Registered: 12-2003 |
I don't know why, Hec. But the millennium will not be like now--and "now" is not like the OT before Jesus came and opened the new way to the Father so Pentecost could happen. Now, the church literally houses the Holy Spirit in each born-again life, and we take the literal presence of the Lord Jesus into the world. This phenomenon was not possible before Jesus died and rose and sent the Holy Spirit to indwell us. Now we have people who are spiritually alive and spiritually dead living side-by-side. In the millennium the righteous will be resurrected in the first resurrection to live and reign with Christ. (Check out Revelation 20.) That resurrected people can live next door to non-resurrected people is no more surprising than the fact that born again and non-born again people can live next door to each other. Moreover, after His resurrection, Jesus demonstrated that resurrected people can live and move with non-resurrected people. As Jesus goes, so go we. Remember, during the millennium Satan is bound. That is different from now. Satan is not confined to the abyss yet. Colleen | ||
| Doc Registered user Username: Doc Post Number: 459 Registered: 2-2003  |
Dear Hec, and all, Don't worry if you don't understand this, it is a very complex subject, with very many conflicting views. And don't expect me to solve it for you. However... I think you are right when you say Adventists are pre-mill, but in a unique way that does not agree with any other theological view. I have never come across any other view which teaches the earth is empty and laid waste during the millennium. Revelation does make it clear, as Colleen said, that the millennium takes place on a populated earth, whatever the "millennium" may mean! In my own background, which is Baptist/Pentecostal (mainly), and otherwise through reading lots of books, the first theory I came across, and the one I therefore believed to be "normal" for years, was the pre-trib rapture, 7 last years, followed by literal millennium, i.e. the dispensationalist pre-mill variety. You may know the following already, if so, please forgive me for insulting your intelligence: Most of the Early Church Fathers, for instance Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, were premill, but also believed that the church would be persecuted by the Antichrist, so sort of, pre-mill/post-trib. The first one to come up with the amillennial position was Augustine, but his view prevailed in the mediaeval church, and the pre-mill view was denounced as heresy. This also continued into the Reformation period. The pre-mill view was first re-introduced in the early 19th century by John Darby, who came up with the pre-trib rapture theory. This had never been taught before in this form. So it could be said that the pre-trib rapture has about as must historical precedent as the Invesigative Judgement, which was "invented" just a few years later. | ||
| Doc Registered user Username: Doc Post Number: 460 Registered: 2-2003 |
Investigative... | ||
| Doc Registered user Username: Doc Post Number: 461 Registered: 2-2003 |
So the early 19th century was the hotbed of new types of theology and teaching, but since then the dispensational, pre-trib, pre-mill view has become extremely popular. Possibly because the idea of Jesus taking us out of here before anything really nasty happens is rather a pleasant concept, which appeals to what we would like to be true, but is it...? About 10 years ago I began to be uncomfortable about the pre-trib rapture, and by now I decidedly no longer believe it. I find the "pre-wrath rapture" more convincing. More recently, I have begun to be uncomforatable about the millennium too, in spite of the historical precendent. I am just saying this from memory, but as far as I remember, the Jews in Jesus' day expected the Messiah to come and reign for a thousand years on the earth before the eternal state began. So the millennium definitely had a pre-Christian, Jewish basis. However, the Jews of Jesus' day were wrong in many ways about their expectations of he Messiah, that is why they missed him! Revelation takes many "known concepts" of the people of the time and uses them in a symbolic way, so the question is, did this happen with the millennial expectations as well? Should the millennium be identified with the Church Age, or with something else? There is a problem here: when we look at Revelation 20, it seems difficult not to accept there will be a literal millennium following the second coming, however... When we look at Jesus' parables of the kingdom of God, there seems to be no place in any of them for a literal millennium following the coming of Christ. There are two aspects of the kingdom found in the parables. One is the present aspect of the Holy Spirit working in the church to accomplish the will of God in this present age, the other is the last judgement followed by the eternal state. So where is the millennium? For this reason, I also am tending towards amillennialism at the moment, simply because this is what the parables teach. But I still don't have all the answers, and I would certainly not fall out with those who had a different view. Clarification still required! Isten áldjon! Adrian | ||
| Seekr777 Registered user Username: Seekr777 Post Number: 808 Registered: 1-2003  |
Adrian, do you have a source where I can study the three different millennial concepts, a, pre, post and any others that are in the "air".  | ||
| Jody Registered user Username: Jody Post Number: 81 Registered: 7-2007 |
Desiring God recently had a roundtable discussion about the Millenium with 3 views represented.The Dispensational view was not represented which didnt bother me a bit.I agree with Doc with much that he said esp about the new teachings developing in the 1800's.I am not home rite now but when i get back i will try to post a link to the Desiring God discussion which is avail for download. I also by default excepted the pop culture view of Dispensationalism after leaving Adventism but now I totally reject it.Does anyone know where I can join a FormerDispensationalist Forum ?? LOL!!! I appreciate everyones feedback and I hope the discussion on the Millenium continues,like already mentioned its not a salvation issue but would be nice to gain some clarity. So basically Adventists view of the Millenium is centered on Ellen G White? | ||
| Doc Registered user Username: Doc Post Number: 462 Registered: 2-2003 |
Hi Seekr, Do I have a resource? Not really, I have just read lots of stuff on lots of sites and in loads of books. You could try the following for a summary of the different views: http://www.thirdmill.org/answers/answer.asp/file/99738.qna/category/th/page/questions/site/iiim http://www.solagroup.org/ http://www.solagroup.org/articles/endtimes/et_0020.html http://www.religioustolerance.org/millenni.htm Otherwise, just do some searching on the Web :-) Adrian | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 1091 Registered: 7-2004  |
Thanks, Adrian for your thoughts. It's interesting that someone raised in the pre-mill pretrib rapture view would change to lean more towards amillenialism. Let me know when you have it figured out! I also lean towards amillenialism for the reasons you mentioned. At the same time, I can't answer the objections Colleen gave to that view. Nothing seems to be an exact fit. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 10600 Registered: 12-2003 |
I agree, Raven. Nothing seems to be an exact fit. And perhaps that is exactly God's intent—that we expect His return and His reign, but that we don't have all the details worked out. Somehow having all the details worked out seems counter-productive to living by faith. It's interesting that the Advent was clearly discernible from prophecy after Jesus came. And for sure the prophecies did predict His coming with some definite-ness, because the magi recognized the star and followed it, knowing a king was born to the Jews. At the same time, it seems doubtful that the magi would have made the trek without the star. So the prophetic details on their own were more of a "marker" as things happened than a definite way to predict the actual times and events. I suspect the future is similar... And Adrian, I have the same problems with the pre-trib rapture that you expressed. The post-trib millennium still seems plausible, however--although there are details that don't quite make sense. If the timing of the first resurrection and the second resurrection were less clear in Revelation 20, I would more likely lean toward amillennialism. The clarity of that sequence seems undeniable, though...but again, I'm not endorsing any particular view. I'm just saying that the specificity of Revelation 20 seems to be more precise than many of the other arguments I hear, both for and against pre-mill/post-trib, etc etc. Colleen | ||
| Skeeter Registered user Username: Skeeter Post Number: 436 Registered: 12-2007 |
After reading this thread my head is spinning.... Sure glad understanding all this is NOT a salvation issue cause I would have absolutely no hope.:-/ Thank you Lord for loving us and saving us without our having to know just how you have the future planned. :-) | ||
| 8thday Registered user Username: 8thday Post Number: 1318 Registered: 11-2007  |
When I really dug in to studying with the Word alone.. in my process of rebuilding my belief system, I came up with the pre-wrath - millennial view. Our church is very much pre-trib and no one there dares open their mouth in opposition to that. It's grounds for tar and feathering.. I've heard what they say about people who dare reject this sacred truth. ha. But I have come to see very little difference in the proof-text method of this belief and the IJ. Also the history of its origin as Adrian mentioned.. a "new" truth.. I think not. A huge percentage of the Body of Christ is already IN the tribulation. I think it would be easier to take an amillennial view if it were not for the amazing re-emergence of Israel. I see some things being fulfilled literally.. or the beginning of it anyway - so it makes me not want to take other things symbolic. But I do believe.. we will all be surprised. =) Sondra | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 7683 Registered: 3-2004  |
I am so glad this is not a salvation issue. I would never make it if it was. It is interesting to discuss and study. My take on it is if God wanted us to know definitely, He would have made it very plain and definite in the Bible. I just trust Him to carry me one day at a time until He takes us to heaven. Diana L | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 10604 Registered: 12-2003 |
Sondra--right on board with you! Colleen | ||
| Doc Registered user Username: Doc Post Number: 463 Registered: 2-2003 |
So am I! (glad it is not a salvation issue). Hey Sondra! I really will get back to you sometime! We have another 4 new converts here to teach and encourage, and still having problems with the grumpy legalists. Two of my friends from England were here and ministered in the church last week, which helped at least some people. God is doing some amazing stuff, in such a way that it is not possible to put him in a box! It's great! And guess what? We are not focusing on eschatology right now :-) Adrian | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 5704 Registered: 9-2006  |
Er...yall sure millennial and amillennial ain't the name for a brand of horse liniment? It shore sounds familiar to me. Ifin' I was to use them big words around a horse, he would kick the side out of the stall. It makes me want to rope one of them words and brand it. Have yall been squattin' with yer spurs on agin? River | ||
| 8thday Registered user Username: 8thday Post Number: 1319 Registered: 11-2007 |
River.. you know more about it than anybody so don't go tryin to act like you don't. =) Great news Adrian!!!! Glad eschatology distraction has expired too. How is your friend doing? Pray for some of that you got over there to hit Texas. =) I have 48 hours home ALONE and am ready to sign off here too. No computer.. just the quiet. =) I have been asking for a weekend like this for over 3 years. Finally got one! But shhh.. it's a secret. I'm not really here... lol. Ya'll behave! =) Sondra |
