| Author |
Message |
Jrt
Registered user
Username: Jrt
Post Number: 881
Registered: 10-2008
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 10, 2009 - 2:43 am: |     |
Amen, and amen, Colleen.
quote:Indeed, Jesus, who knew truth and error more clearly than any other human, was the epitome of love and compassion as well as of rebuke and revelation of unbelief
I am struck by the realization that Jesus never sugar coated the truth. He spoke it plainly and with authority and that precipitated His persecution and His death.
I just finished studying John 5 and this is when John first mentions the Jews wanted to kill Jesus. Jesus clearly "broke" the Sabbath. He healed the man at Bethesda (who had been an invalid for 38 years). Jesus very well could have healed this man the next day. It was not an "emergency" healing. He told the man to pick up his mat and walk. Another "cardinal" Jewish sin. And lastly, He spoke the truth that He was equal with the Father.
Colleen, I'm constantly struck by Christ's use of the words in John, "I tell you the truth". Of all people, Jesus would have been the most patient. Yet, He would never "not share truth," because of the repercussions it might have on Him or the person He was sharing truth with - even to the loss of His own life. Nicodemus, He confronted and of all those who could be persecuted for changing beliefs - Nicodemus, a person in the Jewish rule would have been persecuted. Yet, Jesus still spoke plainly to him - "you need to be born-again".
I wonder Colleen, if Jesus ever missed a chance to reveal unbelief? Sounds like a silly question, don't you think. Not revealing unbelief would mean Jesus truly didn't care for the person and He would leave them to eternal destruction. Indeed, He did come to a point where He remained silent - but that was only after He gave ample evidence of Who He was.
Thank you for your post - it convicts me of the need to love profoundly in His name - even to the point of loss of all that I hold dear and the loss of relationships with those whom I care for ... to risk their anger and disapproval on earth - because I love them too much to leave them in their unbelief and ultimately their eternal destruction. Soon I will be sharing with 2 friends whom I've had for over 25 years the truth I've found about SDAism and the profound good news that salvation is Jesus plus nothing. I have a sense that they do not believe and have not put saving faith in Jesus, alone. Reliance on Jesus IS the only way to salvation (John 5:24).
Keri
P.S. Pegg, thank you for your well-wishes. |
Pegg
Registered user
Username: Pegg
Post Number: 560
Registered: 2-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 10, 2009 - 6:59 am: | |
quote:As long as we internally waffle over whether or not they know Jesus, we don't have to treat them as needing to be evangelized.
Colleen,
I simply don't understand why our conversations have to come down to making some kind of judgment about the salvation of SDAs.
How on earth is reflecting and attempting to understand the perceptions and fears of SDAs going to decrease the urgency with which one presents the superiority of Jesus Christ?
I find myself confused by what you have said in response to what I posted. In what way is showing patience and waiting on the Lord an avoidance of confronting unbelief? Do you think that patience decreases the urgency of praying for our loved ones?
Just what are we supposed to ask those we love to believe in other than that Jesus is enough?
When God, in His mercy, convinces anyone that Jesus is enough, do you think it's possible for anything else to retain significance?
Do You Think That, Until He Does, They Will Ever Come To This Conclusion?
Pegg |
Pegg
Registered user
Username: Pegg
Post Number: 561
Registered: 2-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 10, 2009 - 6:01 pm: | |
River - Thank you for your FB message.
I very much appreciated it and have responded to it there.
God Bless!
Pegg |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 10625
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 10, 2009 - 9:10 pm: | |
Pegg, I understand. All we can ask those we love is to believe that Jesus is enough.
Colleen |
Helovesme2
Registered user
Username: Helovesme2
Post Number: 2279
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 11, 2009 - 5:57 am: | |
I'm curious. Is Jesus enough for those who don't trust Him to be enough? |
Believer247
Registered user
Username: Believer247
Post Number: 74
Registered: 3-2009
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 11, 2009 - 7:08 am: | |
Just catching up on the forum and reading this thread. My "hope" as sda was a mixture of hope that I would be good enough to be saved and the hope of Jesus' second coming, but I did not look forward to His coming because I was afraid I wouldn't be saved. Very convoluted!
The song "We have this Hope" came to mind also as I read this thread. I knew there was a second verse to it but it was rarely sung. When I was church pianist I disliked that song because it was difficult to play, I always asked the organist to play it or if there was no organist available, I would ask that the song be changed to something else.
I would choose this hymn over "We Have this Hope" any day:
My Hope is built on nothing less
Than Jesus' blood and righteousness
I cannot trust the sweetest frame
But wholly lean on Jesus'name.
On Christ the solid Rock I stand
All other ground is sinking sand,
All other ground is sinking sand. |
Helovesme2
Registered user
Username: Helovesme2
Post Number: 2281
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 11, 2009 - 7:33 am: | |
Believer, that is one of my favorite songs! Thanks for bringing it back to mind.
|
Believer247
Registered user
Username: Believer247
Post Number: 78
Registered: 3-2009
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 11, 2009 - 8:38 am: | |
It's one of my favorite songs too. I can sing and play it now believing what it says is true! |
Seekinglight
Registered user
Username: Seekinglight
Post Number: 468
Registered: 3-2009
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 11, 2009 - 9:14 am: | |
quote:I'm curious. Is Jesus enough for those who don't trust Him to be enough?
I've wondered this myself. Even believers struggle to trust Him to be enough during certain points in our journeys. I think this hearkens back to the idea that the Gospel and the imputation of the righteousness of Jesus to all who believe in Him should be preached on a regular basis, even to believers.
I guess in my mind there are a couple of categories. There are those who dogmatically hold that observing some part(s) of the law are absolutely necessary to achieve/keep one's salvation. Then, there's the true believer who does understand justification. When their faith wavers, and they find themselves running back to the cross frequently to remind themselves that Jesus is all they need--regardless of how their behavior is measuring up to the Christian standard at any given point in time.
This reminds me psyc. research indicating how forgetful humans are. On top of that, the Gospel is against our natural inclination to try to earn God's favor. So, frequent reminders of Jesus and what He's accomplished on our behalf is necessary, and it seems like many Christians assume that if you've heard it once and become a believer, you don't really need to hear it again. Instead, the focus turns to getting busy & "living the Christian life". In that busyness, we may start to forget the basics or take them for granted--at least I do.
I'm curious to hear other thoughts on this... |
Pegg
Registered user
Username: Pegg
Post Number: 563
Registered: 2-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 11, 2009 - 9:32 am: | |
quote:Is Jesus enough for those who don't trust Him to be enough?
Mary -
If He is not enough for those who don't trust Him to be enough --> then trusting is something you DO.
If trusting is His gift, then He is enough.For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. - Eph. 2:8-9 Praise God, For I Would Never Trust Him To Be Enough!
Pegg
(Message edited by pegg on November 11, 2009) |
Pegg
Registered user
Username: Pegg
Post Number: 564
Registered: 2-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 11, 2009 - 10:05 am: | |
quote:Even believers struggle to trust Him to be enough during certain points in our journeys. I think this hearkens back to the idea that the Gospel and the imputation of the righteousness of Jesus to all who believe in Him should be preached on a regular basis, even to believers.
Hi Seekinglight - Thank you for your comments.
Yes, believers struggle. His gift of trust is not just about our salvation. This is His gift to every part of our lives.Can't understand how God can love you, if He can really save you? --> Jesus Is Enough!
Does God feel distant? --> Jesus Is Enough!
Struggling with sin in your life? --> Relax! Jesus Is Enough!
Your life painful? --> Jesus Is Enough!
Worried about bills, kids, just stuff? --> Praise God! Jesus Is Enough! Our pastor preached a stirring message from Romans 8 on Sunday. He said that Paul's discourse on the wretched man in chapter 7 was part of his way of telling the Jewish Christians in Rome to lay off trying to make the new Gentile believers do something they, themselves, could never do. He continues without a break into Chapter 8, "For there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus." He then makes a call to leave off living by the flesh and walk in the Spirit instead.
Ken said this is a continuation of the same message. Walking in the flesh is when we try to live a holy life by the law, not only that, it is any time that we strive and strive. Believers have been given the Spirit. In Him we don't have to worry and strive. Paul's summarization of his argument throughout the whole letter of the Romans up to this point occurs at the end of Chapter 8:And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
What, then, shall we say in response to this? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? As it is written: "For your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered." No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 8:28-39 Amazing Grace!
Pegg |
Seekinglight
Registered user
Username: Seekinglight
Post Number: 470
Registered: 3-2009
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 11, 2009 - 10:13 am: | |
quote:Can't understand how God can love you, if He can really save you? --> Jesus Is Enough!
Does God feel distant? --> Jesus Is Enough!
Struggling with sin in your life? --> Relax! Jesus Is Enough!
Your life painful? --> Jesus Is Enough!
Worried about bills, kids, just stuff? --> Praise God! Jesus Is Enough!
Amen! This does my heart good to hear these things over & over b/c I do forget...
Pegg, does your pastor have sermons online? If so, please post a link. |
Pegg
Registered user
Username: Pegg
Post Number: 566
Registered: 2-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 11, 2009 - 11:40 am: | |
quote:does your pastor have sermons online? If so, please post a link.
Here you go, Seekinglight. It's Rappahannock Christian Church (Disciples of Christ) Click the sermon button on the left.
Our website is pretty new. I transcribe Ken's sermon from my notes each week. He polishes it up and makes sure I didn't write my thoughts into to so much that it's unrecognizable. (Haha! Can you imagine that might happen?! ) The webmaster usually posts several at a time. Right now it's up to date through the first 3 of this series on Romans. We should be posting another group soon.
If you want, I'll be happy to e-mail you the series. Just leave me a note with your e-mail address on FB.
Pegg
(Message edited by pegg on November 11, 2009) |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 10633
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 11, 2009 - 8:12 pm: | |
Mary, very interesting question. I admit I'm pondering it a bit...
If a person doesn't believe Jesus is enough, that doesn't make Jesus insufficient. But if a person believes that there's something besides Jesus necessary for salvation, they might not be experiencing His "enough-ness".
If a person is born again, they are hidden with Christ in God. Jesus is then enough, even if they have areas of their lives that are still unresolved. They are saved, because they have surrendered their lives to the Lord Jesus and accepted His blood to cover their sin. They have the Holy Spirit to continue to niggle at their minds and hearts to surrender the deeds of the flesh to the Lord Jesus by the power of the Holy Spirit (Romans 8:13).
People who have not surrendered to the Lord Jesus and accepted His blood are not hidden with Christ in God. These people are still in their natural, unregenerate state. They will not experience Jesus as "enough"--even though He IS enough—because they are not His. As Romans 8:9 says, "However, you are not in the flesh if indeed the spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him."
At least, this is how I understand the implications of your question!
Colleen |
Pegg
Registered user
Username: Pegg
Post Number: 569
Registered: 2-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 11, 2009 - 9:44 pm: | |
quote:Is Jesus enough for those who don't trust Him to be enough?
quote:People who have not surrendered to the Lord Jesus and accepted His blood are not hidden with Christ in God. These people are still in their natural, unregenerate state.
Colleen -
I think this continues to make trusting something that we DO, and now surrender is something that we DO before we can be born again, too.
If Jesus isn't enough for someone who is not trusting that He is, would it ever be possible for people who are still in their natural, unregenerate state to surrender to the blood of Jesus?
Are humans dead in their sins or are they a little bit alive?
I don't think the context supports Romans 8:9 being a judgment of who is born again or not. Paul is writing this letter to Roman Christians. He has repeatedly told them that they are God's children. Just a few verses earlier, in chapter 7 he has described this same type of waffling and in 8:1 he immediately exclaims "There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus." Are we to believe that he's separating his group of readers into 2 parts and what he really means is "There is no condemnation for the ones of you who are born again, but you unregenerate guys better watch out 'cuz you're under the boom?"
These are the same people to whom he has called "brothers" just a page before and saidSo, my brothers, you also died [past tense] to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God. For when we were controlled by the sinful nature, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death. But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code. - Romans 7:4-6 Paul has identified his audience in the very greeting of his letter. He calls them "saints". He calls God "our Father". He says that their faith is renown all over the world.To all in Rome who are loved by God and called to be saints: Grace and peace to you from God our Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ. First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for all of you, because your faith is being reported all over the world. - Romans 1:7-8 If Paul is speaking to believers in this letter then it doesn't make sense that in the middle of chapter 8 he suddenly starts saying "Some of you better watch out, if you don't behave you may become un-born again," or "Here, I think I'd better give you a test for judging amongst your brethren who are born again or not." He is saying, "Since you have been born again, this is how it is with you." This is a repetition of the theme we see Paul playing out over and over in his letters...
"You Have Been Saved [Done Deal!] --> Now Act Like It!"
Pegg
BTW - I DO think Paul is contrasting trying to live a holy life by the law with what it is like to walk in the Spirit in this passage. I just don't think his purpose is to provide a test for how born again a person is, and I don't think he's saying that Jesus isn't enough until you've trusted or surrendered enough.
(Message edited by pegg on November 11, 2009)
(Message edited by pegg on November 11, 2009) |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 5725
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, November 12, 2009 - 12:00 am: | |
Pegg,
We have to take in the whole council of God.
River |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 10637
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 12, 2009 - 6:23 am: | |
Ephesians 2 is very clear that God saves us while we are dead in our sins. We cannot trust Him unless He gives us the faith. It is ALL of Him.
Saving faith and trust is never a work, Ephesians 2:8=9 says it is a gift of God.Hebrews 4, in the passage that explains God has set another day, calling it TODAY, says not to harden your heart. If you hear Him today, enter His rest today.
The argument about whether we have to believe in order to be saved, thus making belief a "work", can go on endlessly without resolution as long as one must see this issue as a "formula" or as having a measurable sequence. What we know is that the Bible commands us to believe on the Lord Jesus and thus be saved.
If we have not believed, if we are resisting the Spirit for whatever reason—whether we are like Judas with intractably rebellious hearts or like Saul who was changed the instant Jesus revealed Himself--we are not asked to explain the process. We have to be obedient. We must believe when we see Jesus.
In Romans Paul is speaking to people who have already been born again. He is not writing to unbelievers. The instruction for believers is very different from instruction to unbelievers. He is not, of course, warning the Romans they can be "un-born". He is telling how they must now live.
Unbelievers, though, can't even worry about those things Paul says. They simply must deal with Jesus. Will they believe and be saved? Or will they harden their hearts?
And over it all, God's eternal power is at work, revealing Himself and giving people the faith to believe. Their is concurrence here: God is sovereignly giving people saving faith, and people are believing. We can't negate or reduce either of these things.
Colleen |
Hec
Registered user
Username: Hec
Post Number: 740
Registered: 3-2009
| | Posted on Thursday, November 12, 2009 - 1:28 pm: | |
I know a ex-SDA pastor who was fired from his pastoring ministry by the conference where he worked due to beliefs against the church.
His believe is that salvation is free, a gift. If one has to do anything at all, even believe, then it's not free. One has to work, whatever that work may be.
The way he explains it is that everybody is born saved because of what Jesus did on the cross. To stay saved, you can't reject Jesus. In other words, to be saved you do not do anything. To get lost you HAVE to reject Jesus.
He preferred to be fired than to change that view or at least keep it quite.
Hec |
Pegg
Registered user
Username: Pegg
Post Number: 572
Registered: 2-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, November 12, 2009 - 3:56 pm: | |
quote:In Romans Paul is speaking to people who have already been born again. He is not writing to unbelievers. The instruction for believers is very different from instruction to unbelievers. He is not, of course, warning the Romans they can be "un-born". He is telling how they must now live.
Then it looks like we agree about the context of Romans 8.
quote:Unbelievers, though, can't even worry about those things Paul says. They simply must deal with Jesus. Will they believe and be saved? Or will they harden their hearts?
I agree. Do you see Paul calling unbelievers to belief or warning them not to harden their hearts in Chapter 7-8?
Do you find this as Paul's purpose anywhere in his letter to the Romans?
Pegg
(Message edited by pegg on November 12, 2009) |
Pegg
Registered user
Username: Pegg
Post Number: 573
Registered: 2-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, November 12, 2009 - 4:27 pm: | |
quote:everybody is born saved because of what Jesus did on the cross. To stay saved, you can't reject Jesus. In other words, to be saved you do not do anything. To get lost you HAVE to reject Jesus.
Scripture teaches that humans are born spiritually dead as a doornail.
Nothing naturally occurring within us would ever turn to God.
However, your acquaintance is right --> Salvation is His Free Gift to us.
Paul clearly says that if we have to work at all it is not free.Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. Romans 4:4-5 It is my understanding that even Calvinists hold that a man must believe and accept Jesus Christ in order to be saved. Thing is, we can only accept this grace through faith --> WHICH IS ALSO HIS GIFT! Eph. 2:8
Paul's arguments up to this point have been about Justification.
It is in Chapters 7-8 that Paul argues that the maintenance of our salvation is entirely His Gift as well.
Praise God For Grace!
Pegg |
Pegg
Registered user
Username: Pegg
Post Number: 574
Registered: 2-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, November 12, 2009 - 4:40 pm: | |
BTW, Hec -- I doubt your pastor acquaintance would have gotten the ax for preaching free justification
as long as he'd been clear enough that once you got the Gift you'd have to work to keep it.
I think he would have had trouble, however, with his reasoning. SDA believes instead, that people are born with an intrinsic tendency to reach to God. Belief and acceptance can take place on their own, so the gift of a new spirit is not needed for justification to take place. In this scenario the gift of the Spirit is given to enable the believer to maintain his salvation.
This being the case, it is very easy to see how this "you must reject Him" idea could arise.
Pegg |
Nowisee
Registered user
Username: Nowisee
Post Number: 186
Registered: 5-2009
| | Posted on Thursday, November 12, 2009 - 8:24 pm: | |
Pegg-been gone, so just read all the above--good discussion.
I think what I meant about having a hope that other Christians didn't have was that they didn't really have the truth of the true doctrines of the Bible--they didn't know the 'secret' we as sdas knew. WE knew how every endtime scenario would unfold. We believed as egw taught that without being sealed (Sabbath truth) we wouldn't enter the portals of heaven. We knew that, as egw teaches, that they were 'faithless Christians' (again, didn't have Sabbath) that egw says are worse than 'avowed unbelievers'. I guess I always felt sorry for them.
And, River, we were so confused; we had the veil over our eyes, but we read so much egw and her statements are terribly contradictory...she says one thing, then 2 pages over says the opposite. I know that's why I never saw justification by faith. Remember, we are coming out of, most of us, a multi-generational brainwashing, |
Asurprise
Registered user
Username: Asurprise
Post Number: 1091
Registered: 7-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, November 12, 2009 - 8:35 pm: | |
When I was a Seventh-day Adventist, I COULD NOT accept Jesus' sacrifice for me. Oh, I tried and tried. I would look at Ephesians 2:8,9 where it says "for by faith you HAVE BEEN SAVED" and try to balance that with Ellen White saying that no one should say they are saved. I could only come up with somewhat of an assurance that never lasted very long.
I think I would have agreed that Jesus is enough as an Adventist; but I wouldn't have understood just what that meant. I would have thought that Ellen White explained it. I would have thought: "yes, Jesus is enough, but..."
I wasn't looking for the truth of the gospel as an Adventist, because I thought I had it. Finding out that the SDA church was false came as a total surprise (hence, my username Asurprise). When I found that it was false, I immediately dropped the SDA false doctrines and THEN AND ONLY THEN could the gospel of the Bible shine through and it immediately made sense! |
Believer247
Registered user
Username: Believer247
Post Number: 82
Registered: 3-2009
| | Posted on Friday, November 13, 2009 - 8:42 am: | |
Nowisee, you are right about as Adventists we "knew" we had the entire scenario of end times events. The "sunday keepers" might have had the hope of Jesus' coming soon but they didn't have the "inside" info that we had.!!
Asurprise, I too would have agreed that Jesus is enough but..... I still had to "do" things. I actually heard this stated in a SS class about a year and half ago. |
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