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Honestwitness
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Username: Honestwitness

Post Number: 936
Registered: 7-2005


Posted on Saturday, October 10, 2009 - 12:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I've added a new page to my blog, but I'm still missing some material I want to add. If you're so inclined, would you please take a look at this page, scroll down to the table, and help me find quotes for the empty places where it says [Need Quote]?

http://honestwitness.wordpress.com/your-jesus-and-mine/

In addition to my blog, I'm hoping to get a very succinct amount of material that I can print on one page (two-sided) to give folks as a one-page tract.

I appreciate whatever you can do quickly, as I have an opportunity that has just come up to share the doctrinal errors of Adventism. I'm meeting tomorrow with someone who is very concerned about a friend who is just starting to get involved with Adventism.

Thanks in advance for whatever help you can offer.
Flyinglady
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Post Number: 7590
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Posted on Saturday, October 10, 2009 - 12:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

HW, do you have Dale's book, The Truth about Adventist Truth? If you do give it to your friend to give to the person interested in adventism. I have done that. It prevented one person from returning to the SDA church.
Diana L
Doc
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Post Number: 436
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Posted on Saturday, October 10, 2009 - 1:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi HonestWitness,

I agree with what you say on your blog. The Holy Spirit has been particulary drawing my attention to the importance of having the right Jesus recently, and 2 Cor 11 keeps coming up over and over. The particular problem we have here in the village at the moment is the activities of JWs, but it certainly applies to SDAs as well.

When I checked your site, though, I could not access the table properly. Only half is visible. Is that my problem, or is it general?

God bless, and keep up the good work,
AB
Honestwitness
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Post Number: 937
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Posted on Saturday, October 10, 2009 - 2:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Doc, the table is not showing correctly for everyone. I will have to go and fix it. Sorry about that.

Diana, I don't have any books to give away at this time. I will probably just refer this person to FAFO and LAM's websites for starters.
Colleentinker
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Post Number: 10491
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Posted on Saturday, October 10, 2009 - 6:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Honestwitness, I am so proud of you! I don't have quotes right at the tip of my fingers. Perhaps later this weekend I can find some--or perhaps Jeremy or someone who has some quotes in their minds can help.

We'll work on it, though...I'm sorry I can't do it right now--but what you have done is AWESOME!

Colleen
Pegg
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Username: Pegg

Post Number: 447
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Posted on Saturday, October 10, 2009 - 7:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Honestwitness!

This is very insightful. What a great answer to this difficult passage. It's just so obvious once you've been shown.

Okay, since some folks are having trouble accessing your table and I have questions about the quotes you need, let me see if I can summarize.

You need an Ellen quote to support
Waited until 1844 to enter the most holy place of the heavenly sanctuary.

And contrast with
“Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way, which he hath [past tense] consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; And [having] an high priest over the house of God; Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.” (Hebrews 10:19-22 KJV)
__________
You need an Ellen quote to support
Has a priestly ministry in the Aaronic order.
And a Scripture quote to support
Has a priestly ministry in the order of Melchisedek, not Aaron.
__________
You need an Ellen quote to support
Will one day cease His ministry of intercession on behalf of His saints, leaving them to perform on their own merits.
And a Scripture to support
Ever lives to make intercession for the saints.
__________
You need a Scripture to support
Is the one and only sin-bearer.
And contrast with
“When Christ, by virtue of His own blood, removes the sins of His people from the heavenly sanctuary at the close of His ministration [the investigative judgment], He will place them upon Satan, who, in the execution of the judgment must bear the final penalty.

“When the investigative judgment closes, Christ will come, and His reward will be with Him to give to every man as his work shall be . . . As the priest in removing the sins from the sanctuary, confessed them upon the head of the scapegoat, so Christ will place all these sins upon Satan, the originator and instigator of sin. The scapegoat, bearing the sins of Israel, was sent away . . . so Satan, bearing the guilt of all the sins which he has caused God’s people to commit, will be for a thousand years confined to the earth . . . and he will at last suffer the full penalty of sin in the fires that shall destroy all the wicked. Thus the great plan of redemption will reach its accomplishment in the final eradication of sin.” The Great Controversy, page 442.
__________
You need an Ellen quote to support
Is Michael, the archangel.
And a Scripture to support
Can’t be the same as Michael the archangel, as Jesus is the Creator, not a created being.
__________
You need an Ellen quote to support
Is currently, since 1844, located in the most holy place of the heavenly sanctuary going over the books of record of every believer’s life. Those found to be unworthy, will be declared, at that moment, to be either eternally damned or eternally saved. Living believers will never know, until after death, if their name has already come up in the judgment and whether they have already been declared eternally damned or eternally saved.
And a Scripture for
Saves to the uttermost, cleansing from all sin, removing sins to the uttermost parts of the sea. Saves His chosen ones before they are even born, gives them second or spiritual birth, enables them to believe in Him, and gives them an inner witness by the Holy Spirit that they are saved.
Have I understood from your table correctly?

Pegg:-):-)
Honestwitness
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Username: Honestwitness

Post Number: 938
Registered: 7-2005


Posted on Saturday, October 10, 2009 - 7:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes, Pegg, you have understood it correctly.

Thanks for the vote of confidence, Colleen. I guess it's still a work in progress. I really dislike hunting through EGW's writings for quotes. I'll do what I can, but I really appreciate the help of the experts on this forum.

Handmaiden, you may recognize I used a few sentences you wrote in another thread. I hope you don't mind.
Handmaiden
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Posted on Saturday, October 10, 2009 - 8:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

not at all :-)

i am very glad to see your wonderful blog and i pray that it will be mightily used of the Lord to help people hear, see and recognise the TRUE JESUS.

much love and many prayers for you today dear sister.

handmaiden
Pegg
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Username: Pegg

Post Number: 448
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Posted on Saturday, October 10, 2009 - 8:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Okay, here's a start...

Jesus is a priest in the order of Melchizedek.
Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil; Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek. Heb. 6:19-20
__________
Jesus ever lives to make intersession for the saints
Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them. Heb. 7:25
All for tonight. I have to go to bed.

Bless You! I'm Praying For Your Friend.

Pegg:-):-)
Jeremy
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Username: Jeremy

Post Number: 3049
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Posted on Saturday, October 10, 2009 - 11:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sorry, I was gone all day today, but I'll try to help with quotes as soon as I can.

That is a great page, Honestwitness! Keep up the good work.

Jeremy
Nowisee
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Posted on Saturday, October 10, 2009 - 11:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"When he (Christ) leaves the sanctuary, darkness covers the inhabitants of the earth. In that fearful time the righteous must live in the sight of a holy God without an intercessor." Spirit of Prophecy, vol.4, p. 432. Also, Great Controversy pp. 614, 647.
Skeeter
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Post Number: 397
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Posted on Sunday, October 11, 2009 - 4:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You are doing a WONDERFUL job setting up this page !!!
One thought comes to mind as reading ... maybe it would be a good idea to use (where ever possible) Bible quotes that refute EGW from the KJ and NKJ as a LOT of SDA's still use only those versions of the Bible and somehow think the other translations are somehow flawed.. of course WE now know there are better translations now that are closer to the original text (like the New American Standard) but since SDA's use the King James to "prove" Ellen white and their doctrines,, I thought it might be a little more effective in reaching them to use the same version of the Bible that they use to show them SDA's errors in Doctrine and EGW's twisting of the Bible. Anyway, just a thought.
Francie
Skeeter
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Posted on Sunday, October 11, 2009 - 4:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I am anxious for you to complete this page as a handout as I think it will be very effective :-)
Francie
Pegg
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Username: Pegg

Post Number: 452
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Posted on Sunday, October 11, 2009 - 5:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Honestwitness!

I'm starting to post some of your questions over on CARM. We have some folks over there that are like quote-misters. I don't know how they do it. You can view the thread here.

I think that it may be difficult to get some of the quotes you're looking for because I'm not sure she clearly said some of these things just the way you have it. If not, I'm very sure they'll be able to help clarify.

Let's See What They Come Up With.

Pegg:-):-)
Jeremy
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Username: Jeremy

Post Number: 3051
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Posted on Sunday, October 11, 2009 - 5:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Waited until 1844 to enter the most holy place of the heavenly sanctuary":


quote:

"Thither the faith of Christ's disciples followed Him as He ascended from their sight. Here their hopes centered, 'which hope we have,' said Paul, 'as an anchor of the soul, both sure and steadfast, and which entereth into that within the veil; whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest forever.' 'Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by His own blood He entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.' Hebrews 6:19, 20; 9:12.

"For eighteen centuries this work of ministration continued in the first apartment of the sanctuary. The blood of Christ, pleaded in behalf of penitent believers, secured their pardon and acceptance with the Father, yet their sins still remained upon the books of record. As in the typical service there was a work of atonement at the close of the year, so before Christ's work for the redemption of men is completed there is a work of atonement for the removal of sin from the sanctuary. This is the service which began when the 2300 days ended. At that time, as foretold by Daniel the prophet, our High Priest entered the most holy, to perform the last division of His solemn work--to cleanse the sanctuary.

[...]

"Thus those who followed in the light of the prophetic word saw that, instead of coming to the earth at the termination of the 2300 days in 1844, Christ then entered the most holy place of the heavenly sanctuary to perform the closing work of atonement preparatory to His coming." (The Great Controversy, page 421, paragraphs 1-2 and page 422, paragraph 1.)




"Has a priestly ministry in the Aaronic order" (the previous EGW quote above also fits this):


quote:

"I was then shown what did take place in heaven as the prophetic periods ended in 1844. I saw that as the ministration of Jesus in the Holy place ended, and he closed the door of that apartment, a great darkness settled upon those who had heard, and had rejected the messages of Christ's coming, and they lost sight of him. Jesus then clothed himself with precious garments. Around the bottom of his robe was a bell and a pomegranate, a bell and a pomegranate. He had suspended from his shoulders a breastplate of curious work. And as he moved, it glittered like diamonds, magnifying letters which looked like names written, or engraven upon the breastplate. After he was fully attired, with something upon his head which looked like a crown, angels surrounded him, and in a flaming chariot he passed within the second vail. I was then bid to take notice of the two apartments of the heavenly Sanctuary. The curtain, or door, was opened, and I was permitted to enter. In the first apartment I saw the candlestick with seven lamps, which looked rich and glorious; also the table on which was the shew-bread, and the altar of incense, and the censer. All the furniture of this apartment looked like purest gold, and reflected the image of the one who entered that place. The curtain which separated these two apartments looked glorious. It was of different colors and material, with a beautiful border, with figures of gold wrought upon it, representing angels. The vail was lifted, and I looked into the second apartment. I saw there an ark which had the appearance of being of the finest gold. As a border around the top of the ark, was most beautiful work representing crowns. It was of fine gold. In the ark were the tables of stone containing the ten commandments. On each end of the ark was a lovely cherub with their wings spread out over it. Their wings were raised on high, and touched each other above the head of Jesus, as he stood by the ark. Their faces were turned towards each other, and they looked downwards to the ark, representing all the angelic host looking with interest at the law of God. Between the cherubim was a golden censer. And as the prayers of the saints in faith came up to Jesus, and he offered them to his Father, a sweet fragrance arose from the incense. It looked like smoke of most beautiful colors. Above the place where Jesus stood, before the ark, I saw an exceeding bright glory that I could not look upon. It appeared like a throne where God dwelt. As the incense ascended up to the Father, the excellent glory came from the Father's throne to Jesus, and from Jesus it was shed upon those whose prayers had come up like sweet incense. Light and glory poured upon Jesus in rich abundance, and overshadowed the mercy-seat, and the train of the glory filled the temple. I could not long look upon the glory. No language can describe it. I was overwhelmed, and turned from the majesty and glory of the scene." (Spiritual Gifts, Volume 1, page 158, paragraph 1.)




"Has a priestly ministry in the order of Melchisedek, not Aaron":


quote:

"Now if perfection was through the Levitical priesthood (for on the basis of it the people received the Law), what further need was there for another priest to arise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be designated according to the order of Aaron?
12For when the priesthood is changed, of necessity there takes place a change of law also." (Hebrews 7:11-12 NASB.)




"Is the one and only sin-bearer":


quote:

"We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to his own way;
and the LORD has laid on him
the iniquity of us all. [...] After the suffering of his soul,
he will see the light of life and be satisfied;
by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many,
and he will bear their iniquities. (Isaiah 53:6, 11 NIV.)

"He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; by his wounds you have been healed." (1 Peter 2:24 NIV.)




"Is Michael, the archangel":


quote:

"Let this chapter be prayerfully and carefully considered. It is plain that aggressive warfare is to be maintained. 'It was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints' [Jude 3]. Then, lest men should put on zeal of their own creating, born of their hereditary and cultivated traits of character, and count it true zeal for God, permitting Satan to get advantage of them in so doing, Jude presents the example of Christ. He says, 'Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil He disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee' [Jude 9]." (Manuscript Releases, Volume 19, page 106, paragraph 2.)




"Can't be the same as Michael the archangel, as Jesus is the Creator, not a created being":


quote:

"For to which of the angels did He ever say,
'YOU ARE MY SON,
TODAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU'?
And again,
'I WILL BE A FATHER TO HIM
AND HE SHALL BE A SON TO ME'?" (Hebrews 1:5 NASB.)

"For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things have been created through Him and for Him.
17He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together." (Colossians 1:16-17 NASB.)

"But the prince of the kingdom of Persia was withstanding me for twenty-one days; then behold, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, for I had been left there with the kings of Persia." (Daniel 10:13 NASB.)

"But Michael the archangel, when he disputed with the devil and argued about the body of Moses, did not dare pronounce against him a railing judgment, but said, 'The Lord rebuke you!'" (Jude 1:9 NASB.)




"Is currently, since 1844, located in the most holy place of the heavenly sanctuary going over the books of record of every believer's life. Those found to be unworthy, will be declared, at that moment, to be either eternally damned or eternally saved. Living believers will never know, until after death, if their name has already come up in the judgment and whether they have already been declared eternally damned or eternally saved":


quote:

"As the books of record are opened in the judgment, the lives of all who have believed on Jesus come in review before God. Beginning with those who first lived upon the earth, our Advocate presents the cases of each successive generation, and closes with the living. Every name is mentioned, every case closely investigated. Names are accepted, names rejected. When any have sins remaining upon the books of record, unrepented of and unforgiven, their names will be blotted out of the book of life, and the record of their good deeds will be erased from the book of God's remembrance. [...]" (The Great Controversy, page 483, paragraph 1.)

"How solemn is the thought! Day after day, passing into eternity, bears its burden of records for the books of heaven. Words once spoken, deeds once done, can never be recalled. Angels have registered both the good and the evil. The mightiest conqueror upon the earth cannot call back the record of even a single day. Our acts, our words, even our most secret motives, all have their weight in deciding our destiny for weal or woe. Though they may be forgotten by us, they will bear their testimony to justify or condemn." (The Great Controversy, page 486, paragraph 3.)

"Though God's people will be surrounded by enemies who are bent upon their destruction, yet the anguish which they suffer is not a dread of persecution for the truth's sake; they fear that every sin has not been repented of, and that through some fault in themselves they will fail to realize the fulfillment of the Saviour's promise: I 'will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world.' Revelation 3:10. If they could have the assurance of pardon they would not shrink from torture or death; but should they prove unworthy, and lose their lives because of their own defects of character, then God's holy name would be reproached." (The Great Controversy, page 619, paragraph 1.)




"Saves to the uttermost, cleansing from all sin, removing sins to the uttermost parts of the sea. Saves His chosen ones before they are even born, gives them second or spiritual birth, enables them to believe in Him, and gives them an inner witness by the Holy Spirit that they are saved":


quote:

"Therefore he is able, once and forever, to save those who come to God through him." (Hebrews 7:25a NLT.)

"For the Law, since it has only a shadow of the good things to come and not the very form of things, can never, by the same sacrifices which they offer continually year by year, make perfect those who draw near.
2Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered, because the worshipers, having once been cleansed, would no longer have had consciousness of sins?
3But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins year by year.
4For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.

[...]

"10By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11Every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins;
12but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, SAT DOWN AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD,
13waiting from that time onward UNTIL HIS ENEMIES BE MADE A FOOTSTOOL FOR HIS FEET.
14For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified." (Hebrews 10:1-4, 10-14 NASB.)

"He will again have compassion on us;
He will tread our iniquities under foot
Yes, You will cast all their sins
Into the depths of the sea." (Micah 7:19 NASB.)

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,
4just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love
5He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,
6to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved." (Ephesians 1:3-6 NASB.)

"But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,
13who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God." (John 1:12-13 NASB.)

"The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God," (Romans 8:16 NASB.)




Along with what others posted above, I think that now covers everything!

Jeremy
Honestwitness
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Post Number: 940
Registered: 7-2005


Posted on Monday, October 12, 2009 - 10:28 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Oh, WOW! Thank you ALL for your wonderful replies. I wish I could take a vacation day and stay home from work just to finish this project. But... * sigh * I'm stuck here at work, reading your posts on my Blackberry while eating my lunch. I'm hoping to find the time (and energy) to do more this evening.

I agree about using only the KJV. Good idea, Francie.

Pegg, I'm glad you're getting some mileage out of these points over on CARM. I don't visit CARM much. I just don't have the stomach for it.
Pegg
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Post Number: 455
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Posted on Monday, October 12, 2009 - 5:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ha! I know what you mean.:-(
Engaging in apologetics has forced me to learn in ways that discussion won't do.

Metal Sharpens Metal.

Pegg:-):-)
Honestwitness
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Post Number: 942
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Posted on Thursday, October 15, 2009 - 7:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

OKAY! I finally finished the web page. Your quotes were all very helpful. Please take another look and let me know if I've made any errors or left out anything.

http://honestwitness.wordpress.com/your-jesus-and-mine/

I'll have to work on a printable tract another day, when I'm not dead tired.
Colleentinker
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Post Number: 10513
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Posted on Friday, October 16, 2009 - 3:38 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Good work, Honestwitness! What a lot of work...what a great resource!

Colleen
Seekinglight
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Post Number: 449
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Posted on Friday, October 16, 2009 - 3:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Pegg, the link you posted to the CARM thread isn't working. Anyone else having trouble w/ it?
Pegg
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Post Number: 465
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Posted on Friday, October 16, 2009 - 4:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hum...I can't make it work either.

Here you go then, Seekinglight.:-)
There are several posts.
See if this works.

Pegg:-):-)
Pegg
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Username: Pegg

Post Number: 471
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Posted on Saturday, October 17, 2009 - 7:01 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Both links are working now. Apparently CARM was having technical difficulties which have been resolved.

Pegg:-):-)
Jeremy
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Username: Jeremy

Post Number: 3059
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Posted on Saturday, October 17, 2009 - 12:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well, it looks like CARM has switched their forum over to forums.carm.org (instead of christiandiscussionforums.org).

Jeremy
Asurprise
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Posted on Saturday, October 17, 2009 - 12:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I haven't been getting to very much on the forum lately, so I just finished reading this thread. I was just reflecting on what Skeeter wrote concerning many SDAs just reading KJ and NKJ versions of the Bible. Most of my relatives are SDA, but I have a half-sister who's Mormon. I asked her how come Joseph Smith's angel spoke in King James English when he (the angel) had supposedly lived on earth as a human long before the time of King James. She told me that God knew that King James English was a holier language.

Come to think of it, Ellen White's angel also spoke in King James English. "Ye must have a greater preparation than ye now have, for the day of the Lord cometh..." This quote is about 2/3 through the little chapter called "Mark of the Beast" in Ellen White's book: "Early Writings."
Pegg
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Post Number: 476
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Posted on Saturday, October 17, 2009 - 9:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

In the thread where I am posting these questions (link in my post 465 above) SDA pastor, Kevin Morgan made a comment that has gotten me thinking.

SDA teaches that the sanctuary the Moses built was patterned after (a replica of) a sanctuary in heaven ( at least that is how I understood it.)

Here is Heb. 9:23 in several translations for comparison:

quote:

KJV - It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

NASB - Therefore it was necessary for the copies of the things in the heavens to be cleansed with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

AMP - By such means, therefore, it was necessary for the [earthly] copies of the heavenly things to be purified, but the actual heavenly things themselves [required far] better and nobler sacrifices than these.

NIV - It was necessary, then, for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these sacrifices, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

NLT - That is why the Tabernacle and everything in it, which were copies of things in heaven, had to be purified by the blood of animals. But the real things in heaven had to be purified with far better sacrifices than the blood of animals.


Here's what Kevin wrote:

quote:

The word in Hebrews is Hebrews 9:23 is hupodegmata. KJV translates it as "patterns"; other versions translate it as "copies." When I looked it up in the lexicon, do you know what I found? It is both.

What's the upshot of this? The sanctuary on earth both followed and preceded the sanctuary in heaven. It followed it, in that God already had a sanctuary in heaven before He had Moses make one on earth. It preceded it because it illustrated the ministry of the sacrifice of Christ and the intercession in which He'd engage upon His ascension into heaven.


First, I'm not sure I entirely understand his meaning.
It feels a bit like double-speak. At first I think I've gotten it and then I don't.

Secondly, and what I've been thinking about the most - are we told anywhere else that the earthly sanctuary is a replica of what was in heaven? Is this really what this text means? Would it not be more logical that the sanctuary was given to Moses entirely as a shadow of Christ's redemptive work that was finished when He sat down beside His Father? Is there Scripture that contradicts this? When the author of Hebrews speaks of Christ atoning for us in the heavenly sanctuary are we required to take that literally? Can the author not just be using familiar language to describe what Jesus has done for us before the Father. (Heaven - the place where God is - is the sanctuary, just as the most holy place - the place where God was - was the sanctuary.)

Thanks.

Pegg:-):-)
Honestwitness
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Username: Honestwitness

Post Number: 943
Registered: 7-2005


Posted on Sunday, October 18, 2009 - 3:36 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have always felt that SDAs take scriptures about heavenly things to be much more literal than God intended. But I could be wrong. After all, it does talk about streets of gold.

If the heavenly sanctuary ever needed to be cleansed, the only sacrifice capable of doing that would have to be acconplished by the Lamb of God. Why would God allow the heavenly sanctuary to be polluted for 1844 years?

If there was any cleansing done, the book of Hebrews would indicate it was done before Jesus sat down at the right hand of the Father. Otherwise, why sit down?

Another thought -- jesus is waiting until His enemies are made His footstool. I would assume this is referring to Satan, the evil angels, and wicked humans, who will be cast into the lake of fire. Are Satan and the evil angels ever allowed access to heaven?

In the book of Job, Satan appears before God in heaven. Satan's presence there would make it polluted, right? Maybe the heavenly sanctuary won't be completely cleansed until Satan is thrown into the lake of fire. If that is true, the heavenly sanctuary was not cleansed in 1844.
Nowisee
Registered user
Username: Nowisee

Post Number: 159
Registered: 5-2009
Posted on Wednesday, October 21, 2009 - 11:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Pegg, Heb 9:24 says that Christ "entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God's presence"...all of the 4 verses you posted above say that the earthly sanctuary was a copy/pattern of "things in the heavens" or "heavenly things" which agrees with your phrase "a shadow of Christ's redemptive work".

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