| Author | Message | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 5645 Registered: 9-2006  |
As I read through the Bible seeds of thought kind of just crop up, and as I was reading thru Luke 20, I read a scripture that got me thinking about the STOD doctrine. In Luke 20 the leaders are after Jesus hide, trying everything they know to trick him into saying something so they can grab him and still keep their hides intact from the people. Along come the Sadducees who deny there is a resurrection and that’s why they are sad u see. They ask him a long convoluted question about who ends up with who. In verse 33, they say, “Therefore in the resurrection (which they do not believe in) whose wife does the woman become, seeing all seven had her as wife? Now here is where I get thinking about the state of the dead doctrine, verse 20:38 "For He is not the God of the dead but of the living, for all live to Him." Now an Adventist would probably return the answer that the dead lives in Gods memory or some such answer, but that is not what the Bible is saying here. It says here that God is not the God of the dead. So if the Adventist want to stick to that theory, basically, they are saying that after their death, God is no longer their God, since Jesus said himself that God is not the God of the dead. Would it be safe to assume then, that according to the Adventist, all the dead Adventist have no God? This question comes to mind, if God is only a temporary God, what good does it do to have a God at all? And if your dead, how are you going to regain God since the dead know nothing? How can God communicate with someone he is not a God of? If he is not our God when we’re dead, then we are nothing to him, so how is the going to remember how to put us back together again? I know I get squirrelly every one in a while (no remarks!) But would someone please help me out here with a logical answer? If God is not the God of the dead, then it follows that he has never been a God of the dead, moreover, never will be. Then how in the world is the Adventist going to get resurrected without a God to resurrect them? HUHHHH? Now we got another problem here too, after they kick the old bucket, they ain’t Got no Jesus neither have they? No wonder the panic attacks! River | ||
| Skeeter Registered user Username: Skeeter Post Number: 412 Registered: 12-2007 |
River, Adventists believe when they die they go into an unconscious "sleep" they call it the "sleep of death" since when Christ returns He raises us from our "sleep" and breathes back into our nostrils the "breath of life" They say "when Adam was created God breathed into his nostrils the breath of life and man became a living soul" so, with no "breath" apparently we are just a body (made from the dust of the earth) with no "soul" so apparently the breath ,, air we breathe is what makes us a living soul,, when we stop breathing I guess we are a dead soul... just a body comprised of the dust of the ground awaiting the "Advent" of Christ to come and put our bodies back together into a perfect, immortal body and breathe that life force back into us to make us once again a "living soul". So I guess when we die we are not "DEAD dead" But sleeping the SLEEP of death in an unconscious state (not knowing anything) until the ressurrection. At least that is the way I remember being told. Confusing I know.....and I am sure there are MANY here who can explain it MUCH better than my sorry attempt at it. I always thought it was confusing even when I believed it... just figured there was something wrong with me for not "getting it" Skeeter | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 3061 Registered: 10-2004  |
Good point, River! "For to this end Christ died and lived again, that He might be Lord both of the dead and of the living." (Romans 14:9 NASB.) Jeremy | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 10525 Registered: 12-2003  |
Actually, River, you do make a good point. Carried to the logical extreme, what you said has to be the outcome of the SDA state of the dead doctrine. Skeeter, your explanation does give the standard SDA response if one were to hear an argument like River's. But the SDA response doesn't address the actual reality of what the Adventist words mean and what the words of the Bible mean. The "God of the living, not the dead" verse addresses the Sadducees disbelief in a resurrection. And Jesus was saying that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were alive. Adventism refuses to believe people have spirits that are either dead in sin or alive in Christ. Therefore, when they see a text such as the one River quotes above, they don't even "see" the real meaning of it. They automatically interpret such texts to align with soul sleep. Of course, their arguments avoid the plain meanings of the words of Scripture and deny the eternal life of God given to believers. Colleen | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 649 Registered: 3-2009 |
These two verses seem to contradict each other. Any insight? Luke 20:38 "For He is not the God of the dead but of the living, for all live to Him." VS. Romans 14:9 NASB. "For to this end Christ died and lived again, that He might be Lord both of the dead and of the living." Hec | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 3062 Registered: 10-2004 |
The two verses would indeed be contradictory from an Adventist perspective. That is why the only way to reconcile them is to realize that Jesus was saying that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were not actually dead. Obviously, since Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were physically dead and yet Jesus says that God, while being their God, is not the God of the dead--that would have to mean that though physically dead, they were not totally dead. Romans 14:9 confirms this by saying that Jesus Christ is Lord of the dead (that is, the physically dead who are actually very much spiritually alive [therefore, "not dead"] and are in His presence). It seems that Jesus was simply making an obvious, logical point to the Sadducees--that God cannot be God of someone that doesn't even exist. And yet the Torah (which were the only books the Sadducees accepted as inspired Scripture--so Jesus had to use them to prove the Resurrection to them) records God saying that He is (present tense) the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (after they were already dead). Therefore, they must exist. God is not the God of the dead--here Jesus seems to be using the word "dead" with the Sadducees' (and SDA) definition of "non-existent." In other words, the dead have not ceased to exist, they will be resurrected. And, of course, in order for them to be resurrected, they would need to still exist! Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on October 19, 2009) | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 5648 Registered: 9-2006 |
Yeah Jeremy, somebody on another thread quoted another writer or preacher as saying we are not a body with a soul, we are a soul with a body. That kicks it around in the right prospective. Hence there can be more than one at the same address. For instance the legions of demons who occupied the poor mans body, along with his own spirit, that Jesus delivered the man of in the NT. I believe it was the same instance where the demons went into the swine and the swine ran over an embankment into the sea. Pigs can't hack having demons in them, that says something for pigs, almost makes me want to stop eating pork chops.  River | ||
| Bskillet Registered user Username: Bskillet Post Number: 614 Registered: 8-2008 |
Totally! Read what Jesus told Martha: The resurrection life of Jesus Christ is given to us now, not at some future date. A Christian cannot die. Period. A Christian's body can cease to function. But if what Jesus is saying here is true, a Christian does not ever cease to exist. A Christian does not ever cease to commune with the almighty. The NT epistles paint Jesus' resurrection as something we have shared in through the Spirit. If Jesus lives eternally with the Father, without cessation or pause, then we do as well. If we believe that there is somehow an end to our lives of communion with the Father, then we are saying Jesus was not resurrected. | ||
| Bskillet Registered user Username: Bskillet Post Number: 615 Registered: 8-2008 |
Hey Hec, check the context: Paul says if we live we live to the Lord, and if we die we die to the Lord. He then says whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord. When he mentions death here, his point is that if we die, we still belong to Jesus and still know Him. In that sense, Jesus is Lord of the dead because those who die in Him continue to commune with Him even after death. If the dead cease to exist until the second coming, then Jesus certainly doesn't rule over them. But that Jesus rules over the dead means that those who died in their bodies still have communion with Him even after physical death. Paul and Jesus are saying the same thing using different words. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 5650 Registered: 9-2006 |
Good show Brent, you explained it well. Skeeter, the Adventist concept is more than an unconscious state (Of course I don't throw a blanket statement over all Adventist, it is just general speak) But (Adventist) believe that God holds that (Dead) person in memory and the person is resurrected out of that memory. This is why they will argue that the incident concerning the witch of Endore had to be a demon. So it goes further than an unconscious state. Logic would probably hold fourth that, if this were true, then the person would not be same person, even if made from a perfect memory so it would not be a resurrection, but a clone. If I had the necessary shops, and a perfect memory, of the first car I owned, which was a 40 model Ford coupe, and I recreated that car exactly like it was, it would still be a replica. But in a true resurrection, Skeeter is going to be Skeeter, not made or recreated from memory, but the real McCoy. Even the insanity of Adventism would agree that there are no recognizable traces of Adam, when we find the bones of a dinosaur; we really don’t dig up the bone, but the rock they have become. There is not much of Adventism that is logical, but a sort of insanity, and when you try to talk sense to them, they begin to proof text in an effort to prove up on something that is completely illogical. Using scripture in its logical order, you can quickly foil them, but instead of looking at the logical outcome, they feverishly get wilder and wilder in their proof texting. Its really a sickening experience for me to argue with an Adventist, because in order to argue with them, you have to argue with the insane. When most formers come out of Adventism, they end up saying, “How could I have ever believed such a ridiculous thing?” The ones that are willing to face truth anyhow, some can’t bring themselves to face the fact that they believed in the illogical and insane. This is not to say that this is the way you saw it understand, it seems to be the way most Adventist view it as far as I can tell. River | ||
| Nowisee Registered user Username: Nowisee Post Number: 155 Registered: 5-2009 |
Oh, boy, the SOTD! (A very hot button--I find it almost impossible to discuss this with SDA relatives--they think I've gone off my rocker.) If the dead are only in unconscious sleep, they are not dead and you can save all the funeral expenses. When someone is unconscious, they are still alive--heart beating, etc. When someone is asleep, they are alive. I know the Bible uses the term 'sleep' alot, but my hypothesis is maybe it is because the body looks just like someone who is sleeping. When I found the John 11 passage, it all became clear: Jesus tells His disciples (vs. 11) that Lazarus has fallen asleep...of, course, they say, "Lord, if he sleeps, he will get better." Makes sense. So, Jesus has to explain clearly, vs.14, "Lazarus is dead..." I don't know why I didn't see this when SDA--there was alot of things in the Bible I didn't see. There are so many passages that make sense now: Luke 23:46--"Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." (Was Jesus lying?!) Ecc. 12:7--"and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to the God who gave it." Luke 8:54,55: After Jesus told Jairus' daughter, "My child, get up!" Her spirit returned and at once she stood up." I was always taught that to believe we had a spirit would open us up to all kinds of demonic spirits--kind of like playing with a ouija board. We'd start seeing our dead relatives, etc. This would scare me alot as a child. So again, fear was used as a tool to keep us doctrinally 'sound'. But it seems to me I have to reject the words of the Bible to still believe we don't have spirits. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 10535 Registered: 12-2003 |
Great observations, Nowisee! The irony is that the SDA belief sets us up for far greater deception and fear. If we believe what the Bible clearly teaches, we are protected with truth. We will not be deceived by "spirits". Have you ever known anyone more frightened of evil spirits than an Adventist? Or have you ever known kids more fascinated with reading about or even experimenting with the supernatural? It always amazes me how much fear and thought there is among Adventists about evil spirits. Colleen |
