| Author |
Message |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 5662
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 21, 2009 - 12:18 pm: |     |
River, just keep shut!
(paddeling own behind)  |
Handmaiden
Registered user
Username: Handmaiden
Post Number: 180
Registered: 7-2008
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 21, 2009 - 12:38 pm: | |
God loves us and accepts us just AS we are and just WHERE we are.
Salvation is a FREE GIFT not of works......
However, although God accepts us just as we are, He also loves us to much, to allow us to remain in the state He finds us in.
We are NOT saved by good works BUT we are saved UNTO good works.
Just like salvation, the good works we do after salvation are the works of the Holy spirit in us and through us.
God and God alone gets any glory for any good work "we" do.
God will not save a person to leave them in catholisism, mormonism or adventism or egypt, etc as He desires to BLESS them and have fellowship with them.
He cannot do this if they remain as they are and refuse to grow in grace and truth.
God is not a respecter of persons, Pegg if HE brought you out and would not allow you to go back that is what He wants for all of His children ...to be free to worship Him in spirit and in TRUTH not in legalism and idolatry. He will not share His glory or His worship with satan or with egw.
Keri is right only a rebellious, born again, person, who puts their wants and needs ahead of God's calling would choose to remain in adventism or in egypt.
We are saved to follow the Saviour.
We are sheep who follow the Master's voice.
The genuine Jesus is not in adventism and is calling His sheep out to follow Him.
If we are worldly when God saves us ...He calls us out of the world.
If we are alcoholic when God saves us ...He calls us out of alcoholism.
If we are drug addicts when God saves us ...He calls us out of drugs.
we are the called out ones !!!!!
much love
handmaiden |
Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 3067
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 21, 2009 - 2:18 pm: | |
Pegg,
What "party line"? If you look closely, just about every single person posting in this thread has posted a different opinion.
I am always mystified when people start talking about FAF being "cultic" or there being a "party line" that everyone is supposed to adhere to. Baloney.
Nobody is saying that you should toe some imaginary "party line." We are saying that you shouldn't be falsely accusing us of adding works to salvation. No one--I repeat--no one on here has done that. Nobody said that you have to do anything in order to keep your salvation. You just made that up out of thin air.
Jeremy |
Cortney
Registered user
Username: Cortney
Post Number: 69
Registered: 8-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 21, 2009 - 3:13 pm: | |
Colleen never stated leaving Adventism is a requirement for salvation. I can't answer for her, but, you have taken what she initially wrote out of context. If you are convicted by the Holy Spirit that Adventism is not Biblical, it would be an error on your part to stay in a system you know is flawed and not biblical, because you would be defying Holy Spirit. Not heeding to the call of the Holy Spirit eventually separates you from God. |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 5664
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 21, 2009 - 5:23 pm: | |
Once again Jeremy, you said exactly what I was thinking.
I think I am getting old, I keep waiting on someone else to say what I should have said.
Quote: So what is the purpose, in your opinion - to toe the party line?
You just had to tack that on didn't you? For what? So you could upset me Pegg?
Ask anybody, I'm holding back pretty darn good!
I'm so proud of meself I am beginning to get the bighead.
River |
Christo
Registered user
Username: Christo
Post Number: 177
Registered: 2-2008
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 21, 2009 - 5:28 pm: | |
Hey, sorry for the distraction,
I just ran across that video this morning during the heat of this discussion. I just felt it was pertinent that the people on this video were portraying making smoothies as their only cause, and it just sounded too familiar.
Actually "causes" have been trying to obstruct the only cause, Christ and his Kingdom, for a long time now, and it is addressed in many ways in the Bible. From the examples of Biblical Isreal, to the specific pleas to not return to food ordinances,keeping of days,and justification by the law.
The unbiblical flaws in adventism are just as ludicrouse as the theatrics that these people were doing in front of unsuspecting shoppers. But there is a difference, these actors were just having fun. Adventism is not just having fun, they are trying to rob people of their assurance of salvation, and take the joy out of the blessings that God gives us.
Chris |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 10537
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 21, 2009 - 6:59 pm: | |
Nearly ten years ago I heard Dale Ratzlaff say, in a talk he gave, that he has come to the conclusion that there are two kinds of Adventists: the deceived and the dishonest. I would argue that there is a third category: the transitioning.
I believe Dale has it right, overall. I'm not about to suppose I can determine which of the deceived OR the dishonest are saved...I just know that God called me, as apparently He also called you, Pegg, to live in integrity once you knew the truth—the truth about Jesus and the truth about Adventism.
Keri's three categories are the same but stated differently.
If we keep examining Adventists to decide whether or not they're saved, we are totally missing the point. We must evaluate Adventism. Only God knows anyone's heart.
God calls us to obedience and loyalty. He asks us to release all forms of compromise, and He brings these things to our attention when He knows we need to deal with it.
If this seems confusing, think about Mormonism or Christian Science or Hinduism. Can we endorse a false foundation—an incomplete atonement, a false prophet, a denial of the existence of a human spirit and thus of spiritual depravity and the reality of Jesus' difference from us, and perfectionism—and be uncompromised?
Again, God saves us in our sin. After we are saved, He continues to ask us to let go of our idols and to allow His word and His Spirit to make us whole. We only have to worry about ourselves. God is taking care of everyone else in His own way.
The Bible is clear that He asks us to be willing to let go of all compromise.
Colleen |
Pegg
Registered user
Username: Pegg
Post Number: 488
Registered: 2-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 21, 2009 - 7:05 pm: | |
Hey Christo!
Thanks for the explanation of your thoughts about the video. I entirely agree with everything you have said, and especially this:
quote:Adventism is not just having fun, they are trying to rob people of their assurance of salvation, and take the joy out of the blessings that God gives us.
This is exactly the problem I see with SDA. They are robbing people of their assurance and taking the joy out of the blessings God has given us. It pains me to see folks enmeshed in this as much as it does anyone else. I want them to come out too!
But Not At The Expense Of...Well, I Won't Say It Because Everyone's A Bit Tired Of Me At This Point.
Pegg
(Message edited by pegg on October 21, 2009) |
Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 3068
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 21, 2009 - 7:07 pm: | |
Yep, River, I agree that you are holding back very well. Just don't too big of a head. ;)
Watch Chris's video link, maybe that'll help.
(I just watched the video now. Thanks for the link, Chris! I love "Improv Everywhere"--they're great!)
Jeremy
(Message edited by Jeremy on October 21, 2009) |
Clintonc
Registered user
Username: Clintonc
Post Number: 46
Registered: 10-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 21, 2009 - 7:18 pm: | |
Wow, this has gotten lots of activity!
Keri,
I liked your three groups post. I know that myself I started as #1 (not born-again), then to perhaps a #4 group (born-again, but confused and not realizing all the problems at stake, wondering if I had to leave or not), then to maybe a #5 (born-again, left the church in person, but not in heart, transitioning, waiting on God's timing to figure everything out).
That's my wierd case, but I think it's an example that every single person and situation is different. Some, like Keri, needed to hear the hard truth. Others, needed to hear a different message.
Seekinglight, your points said it perfectly on our roles as born-again Christians is the unique position we are in as former SDA's. |
Nowisee
Registered user
Username: Nowisee
Post Number: 158
Registered: 5-2009
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 21, 2009 - 10:28 pm: | |
Some random thoughts: In my personal experience as an SDA I knew some very lovely people but can't really say I knew anyone in the church that really believed they were totally saved by grace. We were never taught that; how could we know? I'm really trying hard to think of someone. There was one couple who found the real gospel and told us, but they were already in the process of leaving. Maybe those of you who are younger than I am have known people who had assurance of salvation while SDA...
I do remember people (esp. one Bible teacher) arguing that belief in Christ wasn't enough using the text about 'even the demons believe and tremble...'
How could I have stayed when I was so hungry to hear the Bible taught at church? How could I have stayed and wasted so much time in SS classes that promoted non-questioning and used EGW as an authority for the answers in the lesson.
Seeing the sadness & depression in my aging parents, I wish they would accept the sacrifice of Christ on the cross for their salvation and enter into an abundant life. I see their hopelessness--so I think it's reasonable to be upset with the system that has robbed them of hope and made them too afraid to even think that the church just might be wrong/deceitful.
And, addressing the 'works' discussion re leaving Adventism...was Paul displaying works when he left Judaism to follow Christ? Would he have/could he have stayed where he was after meeting Jesus? Could he have been saved and stayed where he was? I don't think any works are required for salvation, either; to me it didn't seem like work at all to leave (although difficult), it felt like relief! |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 5665
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, October 22, 2009 - 2:04 am: | |
Pegg,
Nobody is getting tired of you at this point, your post was combative from the gitgo because you used words like…..
____________________________________________________________
Sharpen Your Darts!
I know there are proof-texts that are used. Don't even pull them out with me.
What you are doing here is putting the cart before the horse.
The only way they work is by ripping them from their context.
_______________________________________________
That’s the second time you have intimated this forum rejects people unless they tow what you term ‘the party line’.
Using words and sentences like this on us, what do you expect? I told you this ain’t CARM, and it causes people not to be able to see the good words you have to say.
You jump in the middle of Colleen, and I’m going to jump in the middle of you, because I know what lengths they go too to help folks process out of Adventism.
I haven’t even been down to their place, but I’ll bet you a dollar to a doughnut their phone rings constantly from sunup to sundown. I know people like this who give up their right to privacy to minister. They are not takers, they are givers.
You just kind of jumped in there and rung everybody’s bell at one time. Then when the old horse dies you jump in and beat him with a pole.
You’ve got good things to say Pegg, and I know you can do better than that. Now you probably just got up on the wrong side of the bed, that happens to everybody.
This is a good family Pegg, some of the kindest, most forgiving people I have EVER known in my sorry life. But you seem to come off like you have the idea that this is some kind of political scheme for debate. People are in the process of healing here, I told you this ain’t CARM! This forum is not geared for that.
If you mean ‘party line’ to mean and include those who dedicate their time to listen to newbys, encourage them and nurse them till they get better, and do this day in and day out year after year, I resent it!
You think this is some kind of big pick nick for the ones who have been called to do this kind of work? You think we ain’t got nothing better to do? You think we are forum junkies?
You claim you are out and straightened out, well you don’t get the same pass as the newbys.
Don’t play the ‘poor me, everybodies tired of me act, that will fly just as about as far as I can jump. I don’t worry about people like you, but I do worry about the ones who are wrung out day after day, the ones whose family’s are rejecting them, the ones who have caught old billy hell like Keri there, the ones who have wives or husbands still steeped in Adventism. This is serious business and there is no room for you too jump up and down and use ‘rhetoric’ as you call it as I mentioned above.
I figured out you ain’t going to take the hint so I am just giving it to you straight and uncut.
River |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 5666
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, October 22, 2009 - 2:23 am: | |
Sorry for the interruption Clinton and NowIsee.
Clinton you are exactly right when you said: "unique position we are in as former SDA's."
It is very unique, for one thing you stand in the position of being able to help and understand others who have yet to face it, or are in the process of facing it.
You are in the unique position of helping the normal run of the mill churches to come to a realization of what Adventism really is, because they fly underneath the radar.
You are in the unique position of bringing your fresh and much needed outlook into the jaded evangelical churches who have lost their excitement for Christ, who take the privilege of worship together for granted.
You are in a unique position.
River |
Jrt
Registered user
Username: Jrt
Post Number: 872
Registered: 10-2008
| | Posted on Friday, October 23, 2009 - 10:09 am: | |
Clinton,
I don't have ready access to internet right now - I can only type out on a small cell phone which is tedious. But today I have access so thought I'd write.
I really appreciated you sharing! God seems to take us all through a process and there are similarities in all and differences in all.
One of your statements resonated with me "wondering if I had to leave or not" ... I know that I, myself, bargained for some time ... I believe that is one of the stages of grief ... bargaining. When I say bargaining - I mean wondering if I had to make the hard choices and depend on God totally for whatever happened based on those choices. It is hard to leave Adventism - because SO much is involved in it - friendships, family, sometimes work, culture, religion, identity, etc. Adventism affects the very soul of a person, not to mention all the aspects of the physical "life", too. (eating, language (word meanings), etc.)
Yet, Jesus and the knowlege of Grace and the WONDER of God's love that is SO different than what was experienced or thought to be experienced in Adventism is worth it, huh?
It truly is worth it to submit oneself to Jesus and His Word/Scripture (no-proof texting ) To follow after Him and the direction and leading of the Spirit as evidenced and verified by the clear contextual understanding of scripture ...
And you know Clinton ... there is this other part of leaving ... the reality of growing in Jesus and growing in the body of Christ (His church of born-again believers.) It is amazing to me, now.
Pegg,
I hope you don't take this wrongly ... even though I don't have ready access to internet right now I am able to read a little. Your post that said you were not angry did make me smile. The reason being the statements you have made that River posted above. "Sharpen your darts" and you signed your originally post "crying". I think that "crying" does indicate an emotional response don't you? 'Tis ok to share those emotional responses on this forum as long as we don't degenerate into "attacking". I sense that you feel some of us "attack" when we disagree - so sorry, for that. I have sensed from you at times an "attack" when some of us are direct in calling Adventism evil. I know you are concerned for newly transitioning people, yet I would ask one thing of you ... Trust the hearts of those that do call Adventism evil and a cult. They are not desiring to pull transitioning Adventists down, but rather "out". They, too, are being led by the Spirit ... No, you didn't say that they were not ... I'm not implying that you did ... And I would not want you to quit posting - please hear that ...
Let me try to explain my own experience ... Sometimes truth hurts - such as calling Adventism (the doctrines and the institutional church) evil or a cult (because the teachings clearly denigrate the holiness and Sovereignty of God). For me, when I finally chose to see Adventism (again, I'm talking about the teachings and institutional church) as evil, my view of God expanded. God finally, took His rightful place as Sovereign King ...
I accepted the scriptural teaching of God's wrath that He does and has ever right as God Almighty to destroy eternally those that don't believe in Jesus ... In Adventism I was taught that a loving God would never ... I'm finding that God's love and God's wrath are both taught scripturally.
For me my understanding of God has become so much more precious and Big. His grace became that much more precious and His love took on new meaning. Hard to articulate. I'm just trying to share my experience ...
I better close - I probably won't be able to respond much in the next couple of weeks, but know I will be praying for this forum.
Keri |
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