| Author | Message | ||
| Bskillet Registered user Username: Bskillet Post Number: 616 Registered: 8-2008 |
I stumbled across an interesting article on Charles Finney. I now know where Ellen White got her theology. Consider, for instance, the following gems from Finney And This sounds a lot like the Ellenism that the righteousness of Christ is imputed only to the obedient. I think this also helps me understand why I feel such a disconnect with a lot of evangelicals. Finney is a hero in evangelicalism, and perhaps that means that in some sense I have a disconnect because I am less of a Seventh-day Adventist than a lot of evangelicals are. But more to the point, my concern with some of what goes on within evangelicalism is that it seems to pave the way for people to be deceived into Adventism or other legalistic cults. For instance, I was talking to an evangelical sister last Sunday. I mentioned my wife and I had been raised SDA, and about a year ago Jesus delivered us from it. She asked what we meant by being delivered. I told her it was a horrible form of bondage to legalism. She told me she had an SDA friend who was telling her about keeping the Sabbath, and she herself was wondering if what this person said was true. Should we be keeping the Sabbath? It struck me that evangelicalism never prepared this sister to deal with a question like that. She was completely unprepared to deal with the heresies of Judaizing that Paul wrote an entire book of the Bible--Galatians--to oppose. Didn't she know the obvious point of Col. 2:16-17? Hadn't she been taught Gal. 4 and what it means? Didn't she know what 2 Cor. 3 clearly teaches about the Decalogue? Doesn't she know that the entire book of Galatians says that living to the Law is slavery? Evidently, no. Maybe all she was taught by her evangelical teachers was that God gave us the Ten Commandments so we can fight with the ACLU to get them posted in courthouses. I guess I'm just frustrated because things that are plainly taught in Scripture about the difference between Old Covenant and New Covenant, are not well-known by my evangelical brothers and sisters. And even those who claim to know them often live in a reality of calling something New Covenant, and though they don't live to the Law proper, they still approach Christianity through a viewpoint that reflects Old Covenant religious perspectives. I think this article on Finney helps explain why a lot of American Christians, though not as far off base as SDAS, still have difficulty differentiating the Gospel from legalism/moralism. What do you do? (Message edited by bskillet on October 20, 2009) (Message edited by bskillet on October 20, 2009) | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 5651 Registered: 9-2006  |
Welcome to the house of frustration Brent. You wonder if many of the people read the context of the bible at all? Hang in there buddy, and don't let it get to you. River | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 10529 Registered: 12-2003  |
Brent, it's true that in general, Christians are not taught the new covenant clearly. This understanding is one of the things that God gives us as part of His redemption of our past: He opens the reality of the core of the New Testament to us. I have concluded that I can't be paralyzed by the lack of understanding I encounter. Rather, I have to speak and teach the new covenant at every opportunity. River's comment is so true: "You wonder if many of the people read the context of the Bible at all?" Colleen | ||
| Seekinglight Registered user Username: Seekinglight Post Number: 455 Registered: 3-2009 |
Brent, the way I understand it is that Christianity in America is still suffering greatly because of Charles Finney and the 2nd Great Awakening events. Brent, Sondra, and I were bemoaning the legalism in American Christianity a few months ago on this thread: http://www.formeradventist.com/discus/messages/11/9135.html?1249765847 I mentioned that the reason Adventism flourishes is because, in general, Christians don't understand the role of the law. Some folks were a bit offended, but here's the thing: From a historical and sociological perspective, we see that the Pelagian ideas of Charles Finney have definitely stuck around. Folks (both believers and nonbelievers) still perceive Christianity as a system of morals. I still hear evangelicals talking about how the nation needs to "turn back to Jesus" and then He will bless us. What they mean by "turning back to Jesus" is to put the 10 commandments on courtroom walls, outlaw abortion, outlaw gay marriage, etc. I'm sorry, but these things are not what turning back to Jesus really is. They're simply morals and ethics, which have no power to save, as we know. And Jesus doesn't bless us and heal our land when behave morally. I've heard American Evangelicals quote 2 Chronicles 7:14 out of context because it's talking about Israelites under the OC, not Americans. Back to Finney--I don't think he believed in original sin. If you ask most American Christians today, I don't think they truly believe it either. Many take the view of philosopher John Locke, that folks are born innocent--with a blank slate, and you can choose what goes on that slate. Also the norms of society determine what goes on the slate. I just finished reading R.C. Sproul's book called "The Consequences of Ideas" and it talks about how the different philosophers affect our thinking today. I don't think he mentions Finney, (he's not a philosopher anyway), but he does mention Locke, William James, Kant, Descartes, and several others. All these folks of the "enlightenment" have shaped the way Christians think today--including us. Finney's views reflect Pelagius' (a monk who lived in 300 or 400 AD), and it just shows me that there really is nothing new under the sun. Pelagius' views were condemned as heretical back then, but we still fight them today. I've heard it said that we're all, by default, Pelagians--it's in our nature. So, understanding the historical context of all this has been very validating to me as I've been studying my way out of Adventism. I appreciate Dale R's ministry because as he educates Christians about Adventism, hopefully they can correct some of their erroneous assumptions and theology. I hope they can think about where these different ideas originated and understand that some of their assumptions aren't from the Bible. I believe this will take a lot of the perceived validity out of Adventism and make it easier for people to abandon it or avoid joining in the first place. BTW, Brent, Modern Reformation is an excellent publication, IMO. I've learned heaps from reading it over the past few months. Perhaps that is a resource that formers can recommend to SDA family and friends. Because it's not written by any "scary" formers like Dale, it may feel less threatening to them. | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 657 Registered: 3-2009 |
Hurray! Brent is posting again. See the discussion you created? I learn from theses posts. Thanks everybody. Hec | ||
| Bb Registered user Username: Bb Post Number: 584 Registered: 7-2004 |
Today I was reading a book by R.T. Kendall. He was speaking on total forgiveness and how we do that. I want to share one paragraph... "We have a gracious God: "Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful" (Luke 6:36). This is true godliness. Not how plainly you dress, what movie theaters you don't attend, what things you give up, or how often you go to church; it is total forgiveness and being merciful just as God is." It sounds like he could have been writing to the adventists, or the judiazers. Then in my BSF class on the study of John, I found some more interesting parallels that I know we have talked about before, but is so interesting! “The Spiritual Significance of the Sign” Wine symbolizes spiritual joy. At the very beginning of Jesus’ ministry, this sign symbolized the glorious mission of Jesus. He came to transform the “water” of Judaism with its austere legalism from mere outward and dull formalities (for example, prescribed fastings) into the joyous, exhilarating “wine” of the Christian gospel. Jesus spoke of His teaching as “new wine” (Luke 5:38). The Old Testament prophets sometimes used “wine” to symbolize an intense joy and heart satisfaction in God Himself. (See Song of Songs 1:2,4; Isaiah 55:1; Joel 2:24-27; Zechariah 10:7) Although drunkenness was a great disgrace, wine was considered an essential at every feast. The rabbis said, “Without wine there is no joy.” The old wine is like the old order of things-Jewish religious life where one tried to keep the Ten Commandments and failed and where pure joy was always overshadowed by a sense of sin. The new wine was produced by a creative action that only Christ can perform. He came to give people a new life, a new creation, a new birth. (See John 3:5-6; 2 Corinthians 5:17; Ephesians 2:10; 4:24.) This new joyous life in Christ is infinitely better than the old. The original water in the jars speaks of Jewish legal cleansing, which could never satisfy the conscience because it was only a shadow of that which was to come. (See Hebrews 9:9-15.) When the Lord, at His death on the cross, provided true cleansing from sin (1 John 1:7), He also provided the unspeakable joy of a life freed from guilt, lived in the presence of God Himself. Jesus brings joy. God has appointed Him with the oil of joy more than any other human (Hebrews 1:9). He exchanged “legalistic water” for the “wine of joy” of the Holy Spirit. Always He is seen as “delighting in mankind” (Proverbs 8-30-31). If He manifested Himself first at a marriage union, it was surely to reveal that when He is given His rightful place in family life, blessings will follow. It is His desire to give joy to His own, “the full measure of my joy within them” (John 17:13). | ||
| 8thday Registered user Username: 8thday Post Number: 1303 Registered: 11-2007  |
I've really thought there was a connection there from what little I've read of the early holiness beliefs.. sounded so much like egw. I really think they were a big influence on her. And one of my dear "evangelical" friends on facebook quoted this on his status yesterday... and he truly believes it:
I have no idea who J.Miller is/was - but wow. And yet another verse used completely out of context. Great quote Bb.. such a breath of fresh air.. compared to these!! If that's the book on forgiveness, I've read it. It's great! (Message edited by 8thday on October 20, 2009) | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 1076 Registered: 7-2007 |
I've read the autobiography of Charles Finney and I didn't see anything like that. Here's a quote from his autobiography concerning his conversion: quote: "Just at this point the whole question of Gospel salvation opened to my mind in a manner most marvellous to me at the time. I think I then saw, as clearly as I ever have in my life, the reality and fullness of the atonement of Christ. I saw that his work was a finished work; and that instead of having, or needing, any righteousness of my own to recommend me to God, I had to submit myself to the righteousness of God through Christ. Gospel salvation seemed to me to be an offer of something to be accepted; and that it was full and complete; and that all that was necessary on my part, was to get my own consent to give up my sins, and accept Christ. Salvation, instead of being a thing to be wrought out, by my own works, was a thing to be found entirely in the Lord Jesus Christ, who presented himself before me as my God and my Savior." | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 662 Registered: 3-2009 |
Seems to me that at the end of the day this person would be very tired and still had accomplished nothing. How different from the Gospel "Come to me all you who are weary and burdened, an I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon yo and learn from me, for i am gentle and humble in hear, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden light." Mathew 11:28-30 Hec | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1816 Registered: 4-2000  |
Seekinglight, I also greatly appreciate Modern Reformation magazine (www.modernreformation.org). Those who subscribe also get access to their excellent archives. Happy reading! Dennis Fischer | ||
| Nowisee Registered user Username: Nowisee Post Number: 156 Registered: 5-2009 |
I still really appreciate Bob George's ministry--he has been teaching old vs. new covenant, law/grace for 25 years or more. | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 1087 Registered: 7-2004  |
Brent, I have also seen many similarities between Finney's writings and Ellen White's writings. One similarity is that they sometimes contradict themselves, as seen with the quote Asurprise posted. In my mind, if a writer can't be consistent in what they write, then the heretical writings overshadow the ones they might get right. Here is another disturbing quote from the same link Brent posted:
Finney was not a false prophet, but like EGW, he certainly preached another gospel. | ||
| Loneviking Registered user Username: Loneviking Post Number: 674 Registered: 7-2000 |
What I see all of this going back too, from a Reformation standpoint, is two confessions: Augsberg and Westminster. Look them up. The Augsberg confession is primarily Lutheran and acknowledges that the 'law', including the 10 C's is gone. The Westminster claims just the opposite. Churches have lined up under one of these confessions ever since. And yes, although Finney made some good points in his writings, his basic theology is horribly off from my viewpoint. | ||
| Bskillet Registered user Username: Bskillet Post Number: 617 Registered: 8-2008 |
Not familiar with George's work, but in a similar vein I really appreciate John Reisinger, even though I don't always see it exactly the same way as he does. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 5658 Registered: 9-2006 |
Writings such as what Brent brought up remind me so much of some of the Pentecostal holiness churches. Basically you find the supposition that “God saves us and it is then up to us to stay saved.” I don’t really know how anyone finds peace in that kind of supposition and I don’t understand how they figure a supposition like that lines up with scripture. Thus we find in scripture in John 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: John 1:13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. If we can’t get ourselves born again by our own will, then how in the world are we to keep ourselves by our own will. What? Did we all of a sudden get more will power when he saved us? People say, “Oh well…we can lose our salvation if we’re not keerful.” Well friend, I might as well throw in the towel now, because I am THE sorriest, weakest! Excuse for a Christian God ever put on this earth, bar none. What am I supposed to do, toss out my t.v., wear long sleeved dress shirts to church, put my wife in a long black dress with a bun on her noggin? Maybe God decided, “I’ll just play around with old River’s mind till he gets around to kicking the bucket then I’ll strap him to a crotch rocket and fire him off to hell.” “He was a drunk, so I’ll do a miracle and yank him out of the hell he’s in, but its not fer keeps, I am just yanking his chain, because in reality he weren’t worth saving in the first place!” Maybe he just jerked me out of alcoholism and filled me with the Holy Ghost too entertain the troops. Is that the conversation I am too believe or should I go whole hog for John 3:16? Or should I believe this one? John I 5:13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God. Oh Glory! think I’ll just believe the Bible, yall holinesses can believe what you want. I may be one sorry sack of soap suds, but I am Gods sorry sack of soap suds! Oh Glory! I think I might just get up from here and run around the house a time or two! Oh thank you Jesus for having mercy on me, not only that but your mercy and love just keeps on a comin’! Yall don’t mind me now, I’m just turning things over in my head!  River | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 665 Registered: 3-2009 |
Amen! Hec | ||
| Pegg Registered user Username: Pegg Post Number: 484 Registered: 2-2006 |
Reisinger is one of my favorite Christian authors, although I agree Brent, I don't always see things the way he does. Very frequently I find his arguments related to SDA doctrine weak. I think this is because he argues against CT rather than SDA's unique brand of CT. Pegg |
