| Author |
Message |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 5593
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Monday, October 05, 2009 - 10:00 am: |     |
Some ranchers raise pig's and some will even admit it. Either way they're raisin' pigs.
River |
Dennis
Registered user
Username: Dennis
Post Number: 1812
Registered: 4-2000
| | Posted on Monday, October 05, 2009 - 5:37 pm: | |
A knee-jerk reaction of many Adventists when informed about yet another financial or sexual scandal is to quickly add, "Well, this happens in all churches." It is like they're broadcasting some type of disclaimer. I remember my late mother-in-law telling me repeatedly, "The devil works the hardest in our schools." If that is really true, then why should we send our children to a SDA school where the devil is working overtime? Why not send them to a non-SDA school where the devil is not as busy? Obviously, Adventists do not think through their comments as being really anti-Adventist. Their initial reaction is simply to save face. Indeed, they are their own worst enemies.
Dennis Fischer |
Kathy23
Registered user
Username: Kathy23
Post Number: 65
Registered: 6-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 07, 2009 - 9:21 am: | |
I had a teacher in 7th and 8th grade at my SDA school that I was so afraid of. He was constantly yelling at the class for something. Very verbally abusive. I heard stories of physical abuse also. Yet, time and again I heard students say he was the best teacher they ever had. I couldn't wait to get out of his class. I just don't understand. |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 10481
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 07, 2009 - 12:30 pm: | |
Sigh. Oh, Kathy—I feel so bad for all the students who have attended SDA schools and suffered at the hands of frustrated teachers who were struggling with personal demons hiding behind the strictures and performance of Adventism.
I look back on my years teaching in SDA schools, and I can easily remember colleagues who, I believe, were deeply compromised and were sometimes potentially (or actually!) dangerous to their unsuspecting students.
When people have a religion characterized by deception, denial and double-speak, there's no way for anyone to be accountable or to admit what's going on in their lives. Whether one is a victim or a perpetrator or a victim and a perpetrator, there's no good option for them.
They don't know the true Jesus of the Bible and His complete, life-changing salvation that includes new birth; they can't talk to their parents or bosses, etc., because they, too, are caught in the deceit, denial, and double-speak and are worrying about their own reputations.
Adventism breeds despair and Obsessive-compulsive attempts to cope. There's no real hope. It is incredibly, deeply horrific at the deepest personal level...and it makes me sad just thinking about the hopeless pervasiveness of this sort of perpetual cycle of abuse.
Jesus is the ONLY hope. He is the ONLY answer. Without knowing the real Jesus of the Bible and the true gospel of God, people are without God and without hope in the world.
Colleen |
Foofighter
Registered user
Username: Foofighter
Post Number: 88
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 07, 2009 - 6:47 pm: | |
Dennis,
I've heard those comments before, about the devil working harder on Adventists, whether it is the school or church. SDA's talk about the devil a lot! They seem to be more familiar with his activities than with what Jesus is doing, or has done for us, for that matter. |
Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 7583
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 07, 2009 - 7:21 pm: | |
Now that you folks mention it, I heard a lot about the Devil working harder in SDA churches/schools. I also heard very little of Jesus and what He did for us. Thought that was the way it was supposed to be. I never questioned anything from church or from my parents. I was taught not to question anything an adult told me. Luckily no adult asked for anything that would really hurt me (abuse wise). I am seeing that our awesome God was watching over me as a child. Seeing as He watched over me, why didn't He watch over my half brother and sister, whom my Mom mistreated so badly???
Diana L |
Seekinglight
Registered user
Username: Seekinglight
Post Number: 446
Registered: 3-2009
| | Posted on Friday, October 16, 2009 - 11:19 am: | |
I'm just catching up on this thread again. Colleen, your last post really hit it.
Diana, your last question is one I've often asked myself. I have wondered for a long time why some folks suffer more than others. Life is just very unfair. This problem was eloquently explicated by the philosopher Epicurus. He argued this way,
"God either wants to eliminate bad things and cannot, or can but does not want to, or neither wishes to nor can, or both wants to and can. If he wants to and cannot, then he is weak - and this does not apply to god. If he can but does not want to, then he is spiteful - which is equally foreign to god's nature. If he neither wants to nor can, he is both weak and spiteful, and so not a god. If he wants to and can, which is the only thing fitting for a god, where then do bad things come from? Or why does he not eliminate them?"
Epicurus summed up THE dilemma of all dilemmas! And God doesn't give us the answers to these questions yet. I continually ask God to strengthen my faith to believe that God is fair and good even though it doesn't seem that way. |
Handmaiden
Registered user
Username: Handmaiden
Post Number: 177
Registered: 7-2008
| | Posted on Friday, October 16, 2009 - 12:39 pm: | |
The truth is the God is NOT fair.
Fairness is a humanistic idea or doctrine.
If God were fair we would all look the same.
We would all have the same parents and live in the same country,
and have all of the same experiences etc etc etc.
God is not fair. He is JUST.
His JUSTICE is balanced by His MERCY.
i praise God that He is NOT fair
as it is totally NOT fair for the INNOCENT, PURE, HOLY and PERFECT Son of God to die in the place of GUILTY humanity.
If God was fair my dear ones...we would all be on our way to hell.
But Jesus paid our debt satisfying God's justice allowing His great mercy to bring us to salvation.
God is all powerful and all merciful.
He does know and see the pain the hurt and the inhumanity of man to man.
He also saw His Son carry the sin of the whole world,
not just the sins of those who believe, but the sins of the whole world.
He had to turn His eyes away.
The sin debt is paid.
ONLY ONE sin will be unforgiven...ONLY ONE sin will send a person to hell... that is rejecting the conviction of the HOly Spirit to humble yourself and accept whaT Jesus did for your on the cross.
God is good. God is faithful. God is trustworthy.
i do not know WHY He allows so much suffering.
i do know that i trust the ONE who sent His Son to die for me...when i was still His enemy.
i do know that if i would end it and God does not...that i do not have all of the facts that God has...
one more thing i do know for sure i am NOT more merciful than God is.
Are you more merciful than God?????
God has a reason and a purpose for each and everything He allows.
He will NOT give us more than we can bear.
i trust His heart ...do you???
That is why we walk by faith and not by sight.
I also know that God does a work to do in us, who are born selfish and self centered.....etc
Only here in this temporary, snap of the fingers life....
can He shape and mold our characters and conform us to the image of Christ our Lord.
Only here can He prune us to make us more fruitful.
Only here can he "fertilize" us to make us grow.
Only here can he make the perfect cuts to make us a brilliant diamond.
In heaven there will be no more tears, or sorrow or suffering or death and that my friend is our true life... not this down here.
Rejoice for eye has not seen nor ear heard nor has it entered into the heart of man, what God has prepared for those who love Him.
Wisdom is seeing life from God's perspective.
His ways are not our ways. His ways are higher than our ways.
One day we will know and understand but today we much trust in the goodness of our God.
i heard the story of a man, who as a young boy, in the depression era, had a very bad ear infection. His parents took him to the doctor and at the time all the Dr. could do to treat the little boy was to have his parents hold him down and scrape out as much of the infection as he could. This as you can imagine was an extremely painful procedure. The young boy very much resented the Dr. and his parents, who helped in his torture...being too young to realize that the painful experience was for his own good and was very hard for both the Dr. and parents.
Not until much later and much loss of relationship did this boy... understand.
one thing is needful to sit at His feet and learn of Him
love
handmaiden |
Pegg
Registered user
Username: Pegg
Post Number: 463
Registered: 2-2006
| | Posted on Friday, October 16, 2009 - 11:58 am: | |
quote:"God either wants to eliminate bad things and cannot, or can but does not want to, or neither wishes to nor can, or both wants to and can. If he wants to and cannot, then he is weak - and this does not apply to god. If he can but does not want to, then he is spiteful - which is equally foreign to god's nature. If he neither wants to nor can, he is both weak and spiteful, and so not a god. If he wants to and can, which is the only thing fitting for a god, where then do bad things come from? Or why does he not eliminate them?"
God knew we would ask this question. He inspired Paul to answer it.
quote:Romans 9:14-18, 22-24 - What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden....What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— even us, whom he also called
now look at what he says in verses 19-21:
quote:One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' " Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?
The way I see it, you can believe that God is ordering everything or that at many, many points He has let things get horribly out of control.
Take Your Pick.
Pegg |
Seekinglight
Registered user
Username: Seekinglight
Post Number: 447
Registered: 3-2009
| | Posted on Friday, October 16, 2009 - 1:01 pm: | |
Yes, Romans does give us some clues, but, IMO, it still largely leaves the big questions unanswered. Paul anticipated this in Romans 9 by basically saying that we cannot fully understand/question God. It's like the clay telling the potter what to do, etc. To secular philosophers, this is a cop-out, but to people of faith, it is comforting. Still, the questions do remain.
Handmaiden, would you mind explaining the difference between how you're defining fairness and justice? According to Merriam Webster: fair implies an elimination of one's own feelings, prejudices, and desires so as to achieve a proper balance of conflicting interests fair decision. just implies an exact following of a standard of what is right and proper just settlement of territorial claims.
Is this what you're aiming for? Just curious...
IMO, God is fair/just/righteous by His own standards but not necessarily by our own. At least that's my understanding at this time. Not everyone has come to this conclusion, obviously because it is a position that requires faith--which we know of course, only God can give. Epicurus couldn't get passed the dilemma in his lifetime, to my knowledge.
(Message edited by seekinglight on October 16, 2009) |
Pegg
Registered user
Username: Pegg
Post Number: 464
Registered: 2-2006
| | Posted on Friday, October 16, 2009 - 3:00 pm: | |
quote:Epicurus couldn't get passed the dilemma in his lifetime, to my knowledge.
Of course he couldn't, Seekinglight!
This is the way it's always been...
quote:1 Cor. 2:14 - The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.
1 Cor. 3:19-20 - For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God's sight. As it is written: "He catches the wise in their craftiness"; and again, "The Lord knows that the thoughts of the wise are futile."
I am convinced that EVERYTHING that happens in this world - that has ever happened or ever will happen in God's universe - happens only by His volition, under His control and for the express purpose of His glory.
I don't think this is a position of faith.
I think it is the only logical conclusion to be drawn when one considers the interconnectedness of all things.
As you have well said, coming to peace with this position does take faith.
Makes Me Wonder Why On Earth He Would Choose To Give The Gift To Me.
Pegg
(Message edited by pegg on October 16, 2009) |
Seekinglight
Registered user
Username: Seekinglight
Post Number: 448
Registered: 3-2009
| | Posted on Friday, October 16, 2009 - 2:52 pm: | |
Oh, I see what you meant, Pegg, and I agree. We know God can totally prevent all human suffering and yet He does not do so at this time. Faced with a very ugly world, coming to terms with this takes faith that He gives me. There's an old song called "Farther Along" that gives me a lot of hope. It talks about how later on, when I'm with Jesus, He just may give me a glimpse as to the rationale behind it all. Until then, I hold on to Paul's statement that the stuff that is seen is not the "true reality", but the things that are unseen--they are the things that are eternal and that matter most(my paraphrase).
quote:Makes Me Wonder Why On Earth He Would Choose To Give The Gift To Me.
Amen, sister! |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 10514
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Friday, October 16, 2009 - 3:50 pm: | |
We can't understand God's perspective because we're locked into time and three dimensions. We're finite. When we are born again, however, we do receive the mind of Christ (1 Cor 2:16), and spiritual things begin to come into focus.
God's glory is the ultimate value and purpose in the universe. And when we realize that God reveals Himself to every person (Psalm 19 and Romans 1:18-20) through what has been made, we see that perceiving His existence is not a mystery. It's right there. Romans 1 tells us, though, that the wicked have suppressed the knowledge of God with their wickedness.
When a person responds to God's general revelation of Himself, He knows how to reveal Himself personally to them. On this side of the cross, He reveals Jesus...we don't have to wonder how people can hear about Him. Even Muslims without access to the Scriptures are having dreams revealing Jesus.
Whatever method it takes, God reveals Himself to those who respond to His general revelation.
Adventists not only have God's general revelation, they have His special revelation. They have suppressed the clear revelation of the Lord Jesus with the Scriptures open in front of them. This suppression has eternal consequences unless individuals bow before God's own revelation of Himself. He must open their hearts and minds, and they must choose to bow.
God is faithful; not one of His will be lost.
Colleen |
Handmaiden
Registered user
Username: Handmaiden
Post Number: 178
Registered: 7-2008
| | Posted on Friday, October 16, 2009 - 7:37 pm: | |
DEFINING JUSTICE AND FAIRNESS
JUSTICE IS ...
The application of the principles of God's Word which are totally consistent with His holy character.
The principles of justice are universal and are not optional.
Justice reveals the true nature of God and the rebellious nature of man.
Justice requires full payment for every violation of God's holy law.
FAIRNESS IS...
Lowering God's standard to the level that can be achieved with our human ability.
Fairness is based on man's value system and man's timetable.
It is the product of human comparison.
Fairness is looking at a situation from the viewpoint of each person rather than from the viewpoint of God.
love
handmaiden |
Seekinglight
Registered user
Username: Seekinglight
Post Number: 450
Registered: 3-2009
| | Posted on Friday, October 16, 2009 - 7:51 pm: | |
Interesting, Handmaiden. Are these ideas that you gathered from Scripture, from another author, or are they products of your own experience and observations? |
Pegg
Registered user
Username: Pegg
Post Number: 469
Registered: 2-2006
| | Posted on Friday, October 16, 2009 - 8:44 pm: | |
quote:There's an old song called "Farther Along" that gives me a lot of hope. It talks about how later on, when I'm with Jesus, He just may give me a glimpse as to the rationale behind it all.
Father Along
1. Tempted and tried, we’re oft made to wonder
Why it should be thus all the day long;
While there are others living about us,
Never molested, though in the wrong.
Refrain:
Farther along we’ll know more about it,
Farther along we’ll understand why;
Cheer up, my brother, live in the sunshine,
We’ll understand it all by and by.
2. Sometimes I wonder why I must suffer,
Go in the rain, the cold, and the snow,
When there are many living in comfort,
Giving no heed to all I can do.
3. Tempted and tried, how often we question
Why we must suffer year after year,
Being accused by those of our loved ones,
E’en though we’ve walked in God’s holy fear.
4. Often when death has taken our loved ones,
Leaving our home so lone and so drear,
Then do we wonder why others prosper,
Living so wicked year after year.
5. “Faithful till death,” saith our loving Master;
Short is our time to labor and wait;
Then will our toiling seem to be nothing,
When we shall pass the heavenly gate.
6. Soon we will see our dear, loving Savior,
Hear the last trumpet sound through the sky;
Then we will meet those gone on before us,
Then we shall know and understand why. I love it, too.
I've never been much on questioning why God has chosen to do the things He does. For me the part I love about this song is the intimacy it portrays.
Our church group sings at a nursing/assisted living home on Friday evening once a month. The pastor and another guy play guitar. It's like a campfire sing-a-long.
This ministry has proved such a blessing to us. When we started going nearly 2 years ago only a few folks would come out. They would mostly watch us sing - as if we were performers. Well, we're not! We're just a bunch of folks who love to praise the Lord and we want to share Him any way we can. As time has passed attendance has grown. Now several of us have to arrive 30-minutes early just to help roll out all the folks who want to come. It's been a month since the last we were there, but they recognize us right away. Some of these gentle old ladies get dressed up and put costume jewelry on for "singing". The ones who can navigate themselves follow us along down the hall. It feels like the Pied Piper.
It seems like just a few months ago these folks finally caught on that we don't come to sing TO them. I wish you could see them sing! These people can hardly keep their teeth in their mouths, most of them can't manage their song sheets without help (probably can't see!) but they know every word of all the old songs and they praise God at the top of their lungs (which isn't very loud - mostly you can see their mouths moving).
This Song Is One Of Their Favorites, Too, Seekinglight. I Think They Have Lots Of Things To Ask Him.
Pegg
(Message edited by pegg on October 16, 2009)
(Message edited by pegg on October 16, 2009) |
Seekinglight
Registered user
Username: Seekinglight
Post Number: 452
Registered: 3-2009
| | Posted on Monday, October 19, 2009 - 5:30 pm: | |
Pegg, thank you for sharing the story to go along with that song. I love visiting the nursing home because the folks there often know all the lyrics of the songs (all 7 stanzas!), and they sing it 'em they mean it! |
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