| Author | Message | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 568 Registered: 3-2009 |
Is there any denomination out there that believes that Jesus will come the second time not secretly (rapture?)and then establish an earthly (millennial?) kingdom, but to start the new earth and new heavens (eternity)? Hec | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 10433 Registered: 12-2003  |
The Reformed tradition believes the millennium is right now--it's called amillennialism. The next thing, they believe, is the second coming and the new heaven and earth. They don't adequately deal with Revelation 20, however--where it clearly places the millennium after the first resurrection and before the second. They explain the first resurrection by saying it's referring to the new birth. The Bible, however, clearly identifies the resurrection. Jesus was the firstfruit; 1 Cor 15 describes the resurrection. "Resurrection" is never used to describe spiritual rebirth; it's always about the body. So this problem causes me to negate the amillennial theory. I can't say I know how it will all play out, but Revelation 20 does speak of a millennium on earth after the first resurrection. Colleen | ||
| Pegg Registered user Username: Pegg Post Number: 412 Registered: 2-2006 |
The leader (retired Baptist minister) of the Revelation Study I'm in just assumes a pre-trib rapture. His comment at the end of chapter 4 (Ladiocia) was, "This is the last we see of the churches throughout the book of Revelation. That's because they've been raptured." So far I've seen no evidence to support this. In chapter 6 (breaking the seals - horsemen) he said, "The reason we are told this is to give us urgency in telling the Gospel because we don't wish our loved ones to be involved in this mess." Now we're up to chapter 7 and I'm anxious to see who he's going to say the angels are sealing since the saints are all in heaven. So far I've been trying to read commentaries that take a futurist, historist as well as spiritual view. I think some also mix the views. Personally, I don't care what anyone or any denomination holds. I will make up my own mind about what I think. I am quite sure that if end times events were so important, God would have made them very clear. The fact that they're shrouded in mystery leads me to believe these are disputable matters. What Is Not Disputable Is WHO Is Responsible For My Salvation --> Sure Glad He Was Clear About That!  Pegg | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 7534 Registered: 3-2004  |
I was going to go to a Revelations study at my church, on Wednesday night, but I did not. I am at the church Tuesdy night for a CR step study, Thursday night for the Prism weight loss program and Friday night for Celebrate Recovery. I tried 4 nights in a row and I get to tired. I am obligated to attend the other nights as I am a leader on Tuesday and Friday nights. Thursday night I am there to learn how and what to eat so I can loose weight and not have high blood pressure and Diabetes. That is important to me and my family. I am so glad the study of Revelations is not a salvation issue. I just have to set my priorities and I have. Diana L | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 10435 Registered: 12-2003 |
The timing of the rapture is probably one of the most debatable aspects of the end times. Just by the by, Pegg--I'm suspecting that your Revelation teacher will talk about the angels sealing the Jews who are on earth who believe during the tribulation. Again, I'm not dogmatic; I'm just saying that those who hold to a dispensational model see the church being raptured when the full number of Gentiles has come in (as per Romans 11) and the Jews then being unhardened and evangelized during the tribulation. I agree with you: the one thing that is not disputable is WHO is responsible for my salvation! Colleen | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 570 Registered: 3-2009 |
I've heard that many believe that during the "millennial kingdom" there will be a temple in Jerusalem (as per Ezequiel)and that there will be sacrifices.
Hec | ||
| Pegg Registered user Username: Pegg Post Number: 419 Registered: 2-2006 |
Hec! I am seriously a newby at Revelation, but I have been reading a lot of different ideas. One thing that makes a whole lot of sense to me is that it's not wise to pick and choose amongst what you want to be symbolic vs literal in Revelation. For example, this is the reason I'm very skeptical of using the passage about the saints under the alter (chapter 6) to the support immortal soul of the believer. I think the preceding part of the chapter is clearly symbolic (I don't expect to see red and black horses charging out in heaven!) so why would the nature of the writing immediately change without warning? These are my thoughts at the moment. I am very open to additional ideas. I have a book that I like very much called How To Read The The Bible For All It's Worth, Gordon D. Fee & Douglas Stuart. Mary probably has it or knows where to get it. A website I have enjoyed a lot for another perspective is John Stevenson's Bible Study Page I have found his approach to Revelation to be particularly matched to my emerging understanding (through ch. 6 at this point). I have not looked ahead, so my opinion may change as we go along. I have been interested to find that much of the SDA view (historist) is far from unique. I have been reading along in my SDA commentary and as well as looking up commentaries online and using the Simon J. Kistemaker, Revelation, that is part of my NT commentary set. I find that most of the old-timie commentary authors - including reformers - were of the historist persuasion. This would make sense, as we know that Ellen tended to lift whatever she wanted from whomever she wanted and then add a twist that would suit her purposes. Using the SDA commentary might not work for everyone, but it is useful for me to establish the exact teachings as I never had the stomach for learning anything more than what it took to pass my tests in church school - college, most of which I've succeeded to block out since. Well, That's My Ramblings -- Happy Wanderings, Yourself! Pegg (Message edited by pegg on September 26, 2009) | ||
| Jrossb Registered user Username: Jrossb Post Number: 18 Registered: 5-2007 |
Hi Hec The answer is Yes! There is a number of organizations that believe this very thing - sincerely believing that it is fully supported by scripture. This is an Australian Web site www.heraldofhope.org.au. I have found this site to be an excellent informative site and the information is put forward clearly, along with plenty of detailed charts to assist. It is going to be interesting as to how you find this information as opposed to what you have been used to. God bless as you continue your search JRossB | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 571 Registered: 3-2009 |
JRossB, It seems like you have been hiding. I have not seen you before in the forum, and by the number of your post, it seems as if you are pretty new here. Thanks for the link and Welcome back to the forum. Hec | ||
| Jrossb Registered user Username: Jrossb Post Number: 20 Registered: 5-2007 |
Hello again Hec and others, It may seem that I have been hiding because of my apparent inactivity in this arena. I can probably be branded as a lurker in that I don't post here very often being quite busy in other Christian areas. I do check out this site reasonably regularly just to keep a finger on the pulse. To get my story Refer back to Archived Members 1, section, click to open, scroll down to my post No 2 under the Heading By Way of Introduction from Western Down-under which is my story concerning myself with regards my previous life within Adventism. Current Update: Yes there is definately a far greater Christian life after Adventism. I am currently fellowshipping with a SCRIPTURAL GOSPEL Fellowship located about seven minutes from home. Having the true GOSPEL and being able to discuss scripture openly, not being beholden to any dominent religious dogma, agreeing to disagree without being disagreeable, rejoycing in ongoing learning experiences daily - yes it can and does happen. Keep active - keep asking questions - keep studying - stay very close to Jesus so that you can participate in the promises currently, and into the future. If you have any other questions get back to me. God will bless abundently as we continue to make ourselves available. JRossB | ||
| Surfy Registered user Username: Surfy Post Number: 584 Registered: 11-2007 |
Hec, that is the view that I am taking now. I think we will reign with Christ for the 1,000 years here on earth, followed by the resurection of the "wicked" and the final judgement of them. This creates at least two problems with adventist theology. 1. They believe that satan will roam the earth for the 1000 years even though Rev. 20 is very clear that he will be thrown "into the Abyss, and locked and sealed over him, to keep him from decieving the nations anymore until the thousand years are ended". NIV If the righteous are taken to heaven, for the millenium, who are the nations on earth that are being protected from satans deception? That must be the wicked that are still alive after Christ's second coming but doesn't adventist teaching say that all of them will be killed? BTW, I don't think they will all be killed. 2. I see one final judgement of the wicked....after the 1000 years. I don't see those who have just spent the 1000 years with Jesus, ruling with Him, to be subject to the judgement. There is just no way that we will spend 1000 years like that and then stand before the judgement seat and be found "guilty". Adventists fear the judgement because they have been taught to and because their belief on end time events deviates from Biblical teaching. They cannot grasp the concept that there is no condemnation to those who are in Christ. Surfy | ||
| Skeeter Registered user Username: Skeeter Post Number: 363 Registered: 12-2007 |
Mark Martin has on his website a few talks that are very interesting. From Mark 13 there are 3 sermons there (that I see so far) Whats going to happen ? #1 Whats going to happen ? #2 The Tribulation Has anyone here heard these ? and if so what do you think ? do you agree with his interpretation of Mark 13 ? I would like to know why or why not ? Because I REALLY don't know... Will there really be a "rapture" before all the really bad things happen ? or will we all have to go through those things and then Christ comes and "every eye shall see him " and it all happens at once ? If there is a "rapture" will it be "secret?" this subject confuses me. | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 1062 Registered: 7-2007 |
I heard that the idea for a SECRET rapture came from a lady who lived about the time of Ellen White. | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 572 Registered: 3-2009 |
Mark Martin also has a series of sermons on the entire book of Revelation. Has anyone here listen to them? If so how does he compare to the rest? Maybe because of my SDA background, I just can't go along with the popular (Tim Lahaye?)view. Not that I have studied it. It just seems too sensationalist. BTW, what's the difference between Dispensasionalism and the New Covenant theology? Hec | ||
| Pegg Registered user Username: Pegg Post Number: 422 Registered: 2-2006 |
Hec! I haven't studied the trib stuff or the millennium stuff in depth either. What I'm trying to do is keep my slate clean and just see what I can learn. I don't mind looking at or listening to anything. I won't give it credence, however, because of who says it (that includes my pastor and it includes former SDAs, famous or not <wink>). I go back to Scripture and keep putting the pieces together. This system doesn't provide conclusive answers quickly, but it has served me well so far. Pegg | ||
| Pegg Registered user Username: Pegg Post Number: 423 Registered: 2-2006 |
BIG difference! I'm likely not the best one to explain it, though, as I'm just getting a handle on it myself. BTW - There's a very big difference between Covenant Theology and NCT as well. Have you read any of Reisinger's stuff? He is an easy read and has a good way of explaining stuff. I have to say that there are times when I find his arguments weak. In that case I throw that argument out and consider the rest. This doesn't happen very often. The first book I read of his was Tablets of Stone. I was out of SDA after that one! Next I read Abraham's Seed. This contrasts Dispensationalism, CT and NCT. I had no grounding in D or CT and little in NCT at the time, so I found it confusing. I have, however, found the bits I picked up from it useful in application to further study. I recently read, But I Say Unto You and am reading In Defense Of Jesus, The New Lawgiver. Both of these contrast CT with NCT. I would recommend reading But I Say Unto You first, as it gives foundational information. In Defense Of Jesus is a response to a Covenant Theologian who wrote a book debunking NCT called In Defense Of The Decalogue. You should be able to find these books at a Christian Bookstore (Mary can likely get them for you), or you can order them at Sound Of Grace. Happy Reading! Pegg | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 10442 Registered: 12-2003 |
Regarding Revelation--one thing that I've quite compelling is reading "Israel" to mean "Israel", not "the church". While all God's people inherit God's promises to Israel, God keeps His promises to Israel (as per Romans 11). Reading Revelation as literally meaning "Jews" when the tribes are mentioned, for example (as in the 144,000) puts a whole new perspective on things. Another interesting commentary on Revelation is John MacArthur's "Because the Time Is Near". Colleen | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 10443 Registered: 12-2003 |
Hmmm--I was in a hurry! I meant to say all God's people inherit God's promises to Abraham, not "Israel"! The promises of the land are pretty specific. Colleen | ||
| Believer247 Registered user Username: Believer247 Post Number: 48 Registered: 3-2009 |
Pegg, I also have read Tablets of Stone by Reisinger. He is very good at explaining the covenants, the purpose of the 10 C's and the Sabbath being the sign of the covenant,etc. I have started reading But I Say Unto You, I bought Abraham's Seed but have not read it yet. I ordered all of them from Amazon. | ||
| Brian3 Registered user Username: Brian3 Post Number: 241 Registered: 8-2005  |
I believe this site has everything John Reisinger has ever written. http://www.newcovenantmedia.com In Christ, Brian | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 576 Registered: 3-2009 |
Brian, when I try to access that site, I get an error. Is is it working? Hec | ||
| Brian3 Registered user Username: Brian3 Post Number: 242 Registered: 8-2005 |
Hmmmm, it just worked for me. Maybe it was just at that time last night? In Christ, Brian | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 579 Registered: 3-2009 |
Thanks. It's working now. Hec |
