| Author | Message | ||
| Believer247 Registered user Username: Believer247 Post Number: 53 Registered: 3-2009 |
I have been reading Romans this week and this verse really stands out to me. Romans 5:13 completely blows the Investigative Judgement out of the water. Romans 5:12-"therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because all sinned. " Verse 13: For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law." Then verse 14 goes on to say that death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam. These verses are saying that sin entered the world and death through sin so death spread to all men, because all sinned. Sin was in the world, but until the law was given at Mt Sinai, sin was not imputed or kept an account of, (as in a book), because there was no law to obey or disobey.If I remember correctly, the IJ scenario says that in 1844 Jesus went into the Most Holy Place to begin judging all who ever lived, beginning with Adam on to the present. This verse plainly says sin was not kept account of until the law was given. As as Adventist, I do not remember reading this verse or ever hearing it read or discussed. Of course I can see why. | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 1080 Registered: 7-2004  |
Wow - great verses! It also proves the 10 C's are not THE eternal law of God. | ||
| Believer247 Registered user Username: Believer247 Post Number: 54 Registered: 3-2009 |
Yes Raven, that's true! I hadn't even thought of that. | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 583 Registered: 3-2009 |
I have somewhat of a problem understanding these verses. What does it mean when it says that "sin is not imputed when there is no law? Does that mean that there was no law at all to obey before the Sinai law? If that is so, then why did God tell Cain "sin is at the door?" What sin, if there was nothing to obey? Why did God burn Sodom and Gomorrah? The Holy Spirit had not come yet to leave in the believer and guide him as after the ascencion of Jesus. The Siani law guided the Israelites. What guided the pre-Israelites? There was sin. God punished sin before the Sinai law. How do we reply to a SDA when they say that "sin is transgression of the law, so there has to be a law before Sinai for sin to exist?" Hec | ||
| Freeatlast Registered user Username: Freeatlast Post Number: 617 Registered: 5-2002 |
Hec, it means that there is no way to account for something unless there is an accounting method to apply. Without a tax code, the IRS can't prosecute you for tax evasion. Without an inch ruler, you can't measure length in inches. Without traffic laws, police can't pull you over and issue a citation and collect a fine. Without defining what a decibel is, and having a decibel meter, you can't measure how loud something is. This is Paul's point. Without some accounting method for sins, you can't measure someone's sinfulness. The Law was never intended to serve as a comprehensive definition of sin for all time. It was to be the standard by which Israel would have an objective measure of their own level of sinfulness. Make any sense? | ||
| Freeatlast Registered user Username: Freeatlast Post Number: 618 Registered: 5-2002 |
Hec, there is probably no reply you can give that an inculcated SDA will accept. The Bible clearly states that sin was in the world before the law. The law was brought on the scene 430 years after Abraham in order to MEASURE sin in Israel. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 10461 Registered: 12-2003  |
Exactly, Freeatlast. Great answer! Hec, even though there was no way to "account sin" before the law, still sin was in the world, and death reigned. All people died—and God even judged the world with a flood because people were so depraved and out-of-control. But they didn't have a way for anyone to keep track of exactly how much they sinned. There are two points Romans makes that I want to mention here: the first is in Romans 2:14, and it says that Gentiles who do not have the law can, on the basis of their consciences, obey the principles of the law. This means that people can, with or without the law, believe and trust God. If they believe Him—because He has revealed His divine nature and eternal power through creation (Romans 1:18-20), God confirms Himself to them and reveals to them how to honor Him. No law is needed for that. The second point is in Romans 5. The law was not given for the purpose of having a standard of righteousness. It was given, as Freeatlast said, to identify and increase SIN. We have always looked at the law backwards. Paul says in Romans 7 that he wouldn't have known what coveting was if the law had not said, "Do not covet". When he became aware of the law, coveting sprang to life.
Adventists try to say that the law is necessary for sin to exist, therefore, the law is eternal. But what Paul is saying is that sin exists. We are born depraved, separated from God. We are spiritually dead. That is the result of sin. That condition exists. The law was for the purpose of making us see our true nature. Because we are born dead, we have no way to see that our condition is fatal and unnatural. We need HELP! The law came to identify sin—and, in fact, as it identified what sins are, humanity's sins increased because they now knew that certain "natural" things were sin, and they began to "obsess" about the things that had been happening without their perception of right and wrong. When your whole life is wrong, being introduced to something that identifies your condition as different from "right" and "healthy" and "good" causes you to become hyper-aware of your wrongdoing. This attention and hyper-awareness was the purpose of the law. It was never intended to be a means of people learning to live righteously. It was only intended to make people aware that they were helplessly mired in sin. It identified SIN; it did not reveal how to live righteously. Colleen | ||
| Insearchof Registered user Username: Insearchof Post Number: 182 Registered: 8-2005 |
Wow. I had not considered that before - that the law was given to measure sin so that we could see our true nature. Man. I have to think on this. Good stuff. I think I was trying to express this basic thought to a friend of mine a couple of weeks ago when he and I were talking about righteousness and the law. We are both ex-SDAs but he he is back and forth on how to view the law - one week he sees it rightly, the next week he falls back into the SDA mindset and tries to love the law. This is helping to clarify what I have tried to explain to him. Thanks FreeAtLast and Colleen. ISO | ||
| Believer247 Registered user Username: Believer247 Post Number: 55 Registered: 3-2009 |
Thanks to Colleen and FreeAtLast. You both have helped me understand these verses even more clearly. |
