| Author | Message | ||
| Christo Registered user Username: Christo Post Number: 158 Registered: 2-2008 |
THEY COULD NOT HAVE KILLED HIM IF THEY TRIED. I just want to start by thanking our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, for laying himself down, and rising himself up, on account it shows that he is our all in all, whether we want to realize it or not. We learn this from John 10:18 where Jesus says, No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father. Now we know from scripture that the penalty of sin is death, Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. We also know that Jesus was without sin. Hebrews 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. So how we might ask could he have died on the cross, for he had never committed a sin by which he could be punished for. The answer comes from scripture, and I would like to take us back to Leviticus 16 starting at verse 6And Aaron shall offer his bullock of the sin offering, which is for himself, and make an atonement for himself, and for his house. 7And he shall take the two goats, and present them before the LORD at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation. 8And Aaron shall cast lots upon the two goats; one lot for the LORD, and the other lot for the scapegoat. 9And Aaron shall bring the goat upon which the LORD's lot fell, and offer him for a sin offering. 10But the goat, on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat, shall be presented alive before the LORD, to make an atonement with him, and to let him go for a scapegoat into the wilderness. 11And Aaron shall bring the bullock of the sin offering, which is for himself, and shall make an atonement for himself, and for his house, and shall kill the bullock of the sin offering which is for himself: 12And he shall take a censer full of burning coals of fire from off the altar before the LORD, and his hands full of sweet incense beaten small, and bring it within the vail: 13And he shall put the incense upon the fire before the LORD, that the cloud of the incense may cover the mercy seat that is upon the testimony, that he die not: 14And he shall take of the blood of the bullock, and sprinkle it with his finger upon the mercy seat eastward; and before the mercy seat shall he sprinkle of the blood with his finger seven times. 15Then shall he kill the goat of the sin offering, that is for the people, and bring his blood within the vail, and do with that blood as he did with the blood of the bullock, and sprinkle it upon the mercy seat, and before the mercy seat: 16And he shall make an atonement for the holy place, because of the uncleanness of the children of Israel, and because of their transgressions in all their sins: and so shall he do for the tabernacle of the congregation, that remaineth among them in the midst of their uncleanness. 17And there shall be no man in the tabernacle of the congregation when he goeth in to make an atonement in the holy place, until he come out, and have made an atonement for himself, and for his household, and for all the congregation of Israel. 18And he shall go out unto the altar that is before the LORD, and make an atonement for it; and shall take of the blood of the bullock, and of the blood of the goat, and put it upon the horns of the altar round about. 19And he shall sprinkle of the blood upon it with his finger seven times, and cleanse it, and hallow it from the uncleanness of the children of Israel. 20And when he hath made an end of reconciling the holy place, and the tabernacle of the congregation, and the altar, he shall bring the live goat: 21And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness: 22And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness. The day of atonement which was one of the practices before the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem whereby two unblemished perfect goats( all sacrifices had to be perfect) were presented by the priest to the Lord, one for a sacrifice which is for atonement for our sins, and one to have the sins of the people placed on to be led by a fit man to be taken into the wilderness. Here we have four, really five participants in this scenario. We have,the sinners, the priest, the goat who provides the blood for the sin offering, the scapegoat, and the fit man. These five have now been narrow to two through Christ Jesus’ work of atonement on the cross. Us sinners, and Christ Jesus. Their are no longer any sacrifices of bulls or goats, as Jesus on the cross has fulfilled the scriptures of which the holy days were a shadow of things to come. Both in the actuality of the event on the cross , but also in our realization of what Christ has done for us with his shed blood. JESUS said in John 5:38-40 (King James Version) 38And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not. 39Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. 40And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life. King James Version Colossians 2:16Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:17Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. THE BODY WHICH IS OF CHRIST. HOW AMAZING!! When it was said you shall keep the holy days forever, it was by the faculty of belief. Understanding the atonement of believers in Christ Jesus to God , through God as Christ Jesus. For the scriptures, pointed, and testified, and prophesied of Christ. Now that we are walking with Christ the shadows are apparent only when we look away from Jesus. Now these two goats were perfect in every way, and were chosen by lot, one for a sin offering, and one for the scapegoat, and yet if these holy days are a shadow of things to come, THE BODY WHICH IS OF CHRIST, it comes to heart that these two goats are but descriptions of the different aspects of not only what is, but how our atonement with God was accomplished. Now the one goat that shed his blood, represents the shed blood of Jesus on the cross, the blood that was spilled outside of the camp. and was never brought into the earthly sanctuary built by men, but is brought into the temple of God, of which we are, to cleanse us of sin through Christ shed blood, and then we are given the Holy Spirit. 1 Corinthians 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 1 Corinthians 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? Now the scapegoat portrays the mechanism by which Jesus could die for our sins in that he became sin. When the sins of the world. past , present ,and future were placed upon him. as pictured by the sins being placed on the scapegoat. 2 Corinthians 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.. 1 Peter 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. 1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: Without the sins of the world being placed on Jesus, and Jesus becoming sin, our sin, my sin ,your sin, actually taking upon himself our sin completely, he could have never died on the cross. He paid the penalty for our sin, by taking on our sin. Romans 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. If anyone had tried to kill Jesus before his time it would have failed. It just plain could not have happened. There was no sin in Christ for which to be punished by, so his death could not have occurred. Their is no record of Jesus sinning nor could there be, as he had to be the spotless lamb of God, and also he is God, and God cannot sin. Yet by the time of his death he became sin, became our sin, and then was able to die, and receive our penalty of death. He laid himself down, so he was also the high priest who drew the lots for himself to accomplish both to die for our sins, and take our sins back to Sinai, the wilderness, where the law was given, and faith did not exist. Task at hand Jesus delivered humanity from the penalty of sin , which is death, and gave us eternal life. Hebrews 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. Hebrews 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation. Now as for the sacrificed goat, Hebrews 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; Now who was the fit man we might ask? Who would lead him away? Jesus was the fit man when he carried himself and the cross away from the temple, and the pharisee's, up to the mount where he was crucified. Today is the day of salvation. Today is the day of atonement. Enter his rest, "JESUS", today. Thank you Jesus!!!! Chris (Message edited by Christo on September 17, 2009) | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 5536 Registered: 9-2006  |
Yes, thank you Lord that I do not have to pay the terrible penalty for my sin. It humbles me to know that you took my sin upon yourself, upon the cross to bear them away. You died that I might live. Wonderful savior, wonderful Lord, my redeemer. River | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 7479 Registered: 3-2004  |
Thank You Chris for reminding me. And thank You Awesome God for Jesus. Diana L | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 10407 Registered: 12-2003  |
Chris thank you. You make some very perceptive points above. I like how you pointed out there were five "players" in the original shadow ritual: the sinner, the priest, the fit man, the sacrifice, and the scapegoat—and that this shadow resolves into only two parties—the sinner and Jesus. And in the fulfillment of this atonement shadow, there is really only One "Participant". Jesus is the priest; Jesus is the fit man. Jesus became our sin (2 Cor 5:21). Jesus is the sacrifice, and Jesus is the scapegoat. In Him every shadow is realized and takes on flesh, and we, the sinners are the beneficiaries. When you spell it out as you did, it becomes so clear that the scapegoat cannot be Satan. No one but Jesus could bear our sin away from us. Interestingly, the Bible does not even represent Satan in the rituals foreshadowing our salvation. The OT ceremonies and shadows all stood for our sin, which does not equal Satan, and Jesus. Only in a false gospel do we find Satan being a significant player in the matter of our sin and salvation. Satan deceived Eve, but God's revelation of His grace and mercy to us only addresses our own sin and our own salvation accomplished through the Lord Jesus. Praise God from whom all blessings flow! Colleen | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 1052 Registered: 7-2007 |
You're right Chris; no-one could kill Jesus. He's God, after all! But I'm SO GLAD that He willingly laid His life down for us!!!!!!!!  | ||
| Christo Registered user Username: Christo Post Number: 160 Registered: 2-2008 |
It is so important how things transpired, after all God is God, and he could have provided salvation in any number of ways, or could he? Lets suppose that salvation was provided by God dropping 1000 ping pong balls off The Empire State building. Would that have transformed hearts.I think not. This is what we are up against with Adventism, they have created an illusion of how salvation is accomplished. Their scapegoat doctrine is deceitful extrordinare, as it assigns the attributes, and accomplishments of Christ to satan Knowing God is perfect, and all that he does is perfect, the plan of salvation being accomplished through Christ Jesus is perfect just the way it happened. As a matter of fact it is the only way it could have happened. First He is the creator of the universe, He was born in a manger a human baby, He lived a perfect life in the flesh, and as 1 Peter 3:18 says he was put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the spirit. Now the Adventist will say that this is all for example, for us to fallow. But it is not for example, it is for transformation. We chose did not to be in these bodies of ours, it is a gift. We are not self sustained, but God sustained, and it is certainly not by our living a perfect life. But when we realize what God has done for us, we realize that our flesh is not sufficient, but God is sufficient. God cares for us, and loves us. Then, and only then can we then surrender our spirit to God. To be quickened by the Spirit. I think that Adventism tries to surrender the flesh to God, so as to live a perfect life in the flesh, but it is the wrong gift, almost akin to Cain. It does not transform, because it is still holding power in the flesh, not in the power of our spirit tabernacling with the Holy spirit. Without an awareness of their spirit, how can they surrender totally to God. Our spirits make prayers that we don't even know how to make, but to listen to the conversation of this prayer with God is difficult when absorbed in the flesh. It matters not if this absorption is with the Super bowl game on Superbowl Sunday, or being absorbed in religious doctrines that present a distorted, limiting view of the power of God that makes God in our image. The mental gymnastics that our sinful flesh can conjure far exceeds any stone or wooden statues of old. If we only walk by sight, by the seen,by the faculties of our flesh, how can we trust in the bigger , much bigger unseen. Chris | ||
| Martinc Registered user Username: Martinc Post Number: 99 Registered: 9-2006 |
Chris, excellent points about the idolatry of trying to perfect our life in the flesh, while denying the existence of a human spirit. Like you said, "If we only walk by sight, by the seen, by the faculties of our flesh, how can we trust in the bigger, much bigger unseen." Adventist doctrine tries to perfect the outward man with diet and day-keeping, while putting our minds on the "things of the flesh," as it says in Romans 8. Here is the problem of Adventism encapsulated: "For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God." I'm thinking of the slogan for Loma Linda University, "To make man whole." This means that the whole person and all his faculties, spiritual, mental, and physical, are reduced to the physical. Wholeness is having healthy, superior, well-behaved flesh. Adventists are zealous for the law, but their doctrine creates the very mindset of flesh-focus, making us hostile to God, and thereby incapable of submitting to his will. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 10428 Registered: 12-2003 |
Such great analyses, Chris and Martin. I love your collective point that Adventism reduces the issues of "spirit" to merely flesh. I believe that the doctrine of soul sleep as taught by Adventists is, on the practical level, the most distorting belief they hold. When I was Adventist, I believed my spiritual health and perception was completely dependent upon beating myself into obedient submission and trying to figure out how to put into practice the love and integrity God demanded. I would not have said that my spirituality depended on my behavior. I didn't even really believe it depended on "behavior". But I believed that I could move myself toward "principles" of godliness by praying and refusing to indulge in whatever temptation faced me, such as the temptation be be angry or defensive or even to drink coffee...sigh. I didn't understand that no amount of praying and agonizing and committing my behavior to God would change me. I had to admit before God that I was totally depraved. I had to trust Him and accept His gift of a new Heart and His own blood covering me, not wrestle with pleasing Him. I see this same internal split played out in our intimate relationships. If we never actually recognize that our human souls are so broken that we cannot trust or believe the people God has given us as we surrender to Him, we always keep them at arms' length--and we don't even know we're doing it. We try harder and harder to please the other, trying to understand what they want and need, but if we don't actually see that the problem is not our behavior toward them but our deep, inarticulate lack of trust or belief in them, we just keep intensifying our frustration. And NONE of this belief and trust is possible if we are not born again. If our own spirits are not brought to life by the Holy Spirit indwelling us, we can't resolve anything—either with God or each other. Martin, your last paragraph above totally sums up the legacy of our erstwhile "flesh religion". Adventism taught us in deep profound, foundational ways that defy articulation that our spiritual life and health depends upon our submission to rules of living. Wrong! Our spiritual and physical health are subject to our submission to the Lord Jesus—God Himself who became flesh and defeated death and sin forever!!! Colleen | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1804 Registered: 4-2000  |
The SDA view of death (soul sleep and annihilationism), does not deal with "eternal sin" (Mk. 3:29 ESV). Moreover, Jesus said "whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come" (Mt. 12:32 ESV). There is a wide chasm between our sin and God's holiness. R. C. Sproul rightly states that "Sin is cosmic treason and a crime." Annihilationists trivialize sin through their quick-fix solution of obliteration. It is the easy way out of a very serious predicament. D. A. Carson, in his excellent book entitled The Gagging of God, puts it this way: "One might reasonably wonder why, if people pay for their sins in hell before they are annihilated, they cannot be released into heaven, turning hell into purgatory. Alternatively, if the sins have not yet been paid for, why should they be annihilated? The truth of the matter is that annihilation does not account for what Jesus calls 'an eternal sin.'" John Donne adds: "To fall out of the hands of the living God is horror beyond our expression and imagination. When all is done, the hell of hells, the torment of torments, is the everlasting absence of God, and the everlasting impossiblity of returning to his presence...to be secluded eternally, eternally, eternally from the sight of God." Hell's worst feature is its duration. Hell is eternal because the unconfessed and unforgiven sins of the ungodly are forever before the Father. In the face of all logic, the Bible teaches that if man does anything good, God gets all the glory; and if man does anything bad, man gets all the blame. Man cannot harmonize these two seemingly contradictory positions, but God can. The devout Bible student is not embarrassed that he cannot understand everything about God. After all, God's ways are higher than our ways, as the heavens are higher than the earth (Isa. 55:9). It's all about Him! Dennis Fischer | ||
| Christo Registered user Username: Christo Post Number: 162 Registered: 2-2008 |
Dennis, Good points, although... The Holy Spirit is constantly telling us to go to Christ, not go to hell. So what do we do with all this? GO TO CHRIST!!! It's like a judge telling you you are free to go,because you both have a common friend who straightened everything out for all parties involved, and then continuing to argue with the judge, the opposing attorney, the victims family, the bailiff, the court reporter, even the night janitor, about how right you are, FOR ETERNITY. The ultimate blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is to reject Christ. To reject Christ and his salvation that he provided us is to blasphemy the Holy Spirit. Chris (Message edited by Christo on September 23, 2009) | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 10432 Registered: 12-2003 |
Good point, Dennis--the fact of blasphemy against the Spirit not being forgiven in the age to come is talking about eternal sin. Colleen | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1805 Registered: 4-2000 |
The fact is that God "did not spare the angels when they sinned" (2 Peter 2:4). So what makes some people think that they are a "special case" to somehow circumvent eternal punishment? Moreover, the devil himself will suffer eternal torment (Rev. 20:10). The devil and his angels NEVER ever have a good day--even now each new day is worse than the day before. They have been intensely suffering ever since their expulsion from heaven thousands of years ago. Someone rightly stated that: "Hell only gets worse while heaven only gets better." The letter of Jude uses very graphic metaphors to describe hell (i.e., gloomy, utter darkness and blazing, eternal fire). These scary metaphors describe opposite extremes (intense, unquenchable fire versus being chained in pits of utter darkness) to emblazon upon our minds the awfulness of the place called hell. Jesus even stated that "if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell" (Mk. 9:47). Sounds like hell is a place to avoid at all costs! It is well that we seek to interpret the various metaphors for hell. Truly, we can only appreciate God's grace to the extent that we understand the depth of His divine wrath. His grace still amazes me, Dennis Fischer | ||
| Martinc Registered user Username: Martinc Post Number: 100 Registered: 9-2006 |
The final paragraph of Great Controversy really demonstrates the great gulf of understanding between the theology of spirit vs. flesh: "The great controversy is ended. Sin and sinners are no more. The entire universe is clean. One pulse of harmony and gladness beats through the vast creation." And Isaiah 66:24, speaking of the New Earth says, 24"And they shall go out and look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against me. For their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh." Admittedly, there is something naturally appealing in the idea that finally "the entire universe is clean." As an Adventist, it always seemed so self-evident, just as we found the idea of an eternal hell abhorrent. I believed that only "unspiritual" people would want a universe polluted with a place of perpetual punishment! But we measured the value of salvation only by the physical, and our sense of beauty and harmony. Like you pointed out Dennis, annihilation also trivializes the "high treason" of sin and the stupendous gift of eternal life. Although it feels compassionate, annihilation is a doctrine of the flesh. Our life is a Person, and Eternal Life's value is the value of the Son of God. | ||
| Christo Registered user Username: Christo Post Number: 163 Registered: 2-2008 |
Annihilation removes the imperative of concern for others salvation, and even ones own. I think it creates a psychology similar to the atheist, in that this is all there is, this earthly lifetime. I have observed that Adventists are not typically concerned with others salvation , mostly their own. Sure they want people to join their church. Even then, without knowing they are saved by Christ Jesus, what can possibly be hoped for, for themselves or others. I contrast this to Paul who would have gladly given up his salvation in exchange for the salvation of his Hebrew contemporaries, who rejected Christ. I don't find myself worrying about my future, as it is secured by Jesus. I think about others salvation, who don't know the Lord, and it is painful to bring that to awareness, because these are people I love. Sometimes I think I numb myself to the whole situation. But annihilation is not Biblically supported, and is less than an uplifting suggestion. I think annihilation gives the Adventist, some sort or strange comfort in that they have watched not only themselves fall short of the glory of God, but also their parents, siblings, friends, and congregation. Every year thousands of Adventists die, and according to the teachings of their church none of them measure up. Not realizing that they could be justified by faith in Christ Jesus. To watch people we love , or know, fail to receive the free gift of salvation through Jesus is really hard, and often I don't know what to do, how to minister. I wait for my prayers to be answered. But often I block it out of my mind. My friend says he prays for more time,and I know he prayed for me. I am glad God was patient enough to wait for me. Chris | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 10449 Registered: 12-2003 |
Martinc and Chris, excellent points. Martin, you make a really insightful point in your last paragraph--well, more than one, actually! But the ideas of annihilation trivializing the "high treason of sin and the stupendous gift of eternal life" is so right on--as well as the statement that annihilation is a doctrine of the flesh. That "flesh" statement dovetails with Chris's statement that Adventists get some sort of strange comfort from it. Indeed, with a worldview that says we have no literal immaterial spirit that can know God, eternity is comprehensible only in terms of flesh and physical pain. Eternal punishment is about depravity and accumulated sins resulting from an unregenerate heart. There are physical and spiritual components to this suffering. Eternal physical pain makes no sense as a consequence for a misdeed. It doesn't seem "equal" in nature or value. But the sin of being out of communion with God, in unrepentant rebellion, and severed from knowing Him is infinite in nature and value, because God is infinite—and because His intention for us is also to live for eternity. It is death to be out of communion with God. Our bodies do not need to be dead in order for "us" to be dead. Adam and Eve died the day they ate the fruit, and their legacy to us is that we are born dead. We have to be born again by the Holy Spirit in order to live. Hell doesn't even make sense if it's only physical. Revelation 20 makes it clear that it includes the physical, but the core of ourselves isn't physical; it our spirit. Both are involved, and hell is eternal separation from God. It is only a word game to say that annihilation equals eternal separation. That's avoiding the plain meaning of the words! A couple who is "separated" is not experiencing the death of a spouse. Separation is worse that death because there is conscious awareness of being unable to relate to the other while both are alive. If one dies, the remaining member of the couple isn't said to be "separated" from the dead loved one. They are said to be "widowed". They have the ability, legally and morally, to be united to another. A person who is "separated" is stuck, legally and morally, in a limbo of non-relationship. That image is what the image of hell's "eternal separation" is about. Today is Yom Kippur—the Jewish Day of Atonement. On this day, according to Jewish belief, God decides for another year whether a person's name is in the Book of Life or the Book of Death. We can KNOW with eternal certainty that our names are in the book of LIfe! In Jesus, we have passed from death to life (John 5:24). We are eternally secure! Colleen |
