| Author | Message | ||
| Jrt Registered user Username: Jrt Post Number: 809 Registered: 10-2008 |
I came across the marks of a cult: http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/Cults/marksof.htm What do you think? Does Adventism fit? How does Adventism line up with the 14 points? The Marks of a cult in brief are: 1. Extrabiblical Authority No matter what SDA's say, their official doctrine states; Ellen White is a continuing source of truth while the Bible is only a standard. 2. Works Salvation/Legalism Ellen White, who is the continuing source of truth states, We should never say we are saved [Christ Object Lessons, p. 155]. Yet the Bible says,"I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life." 1 John 5:13 In one breath in EGW writings, she has a wonderful phrase on Grace alone, through faith alone, through Christ alone, and then in the same paragraph is a phrase on working towards salvation. It is complete double-speak. Look at Christ Object Lessons, pg. 315. 3. No Assurance of Salvation See #2 above. Another example is the SDA doctrine of the Investigative Judgment - it gives NO assurance of Salvation. The IJ IS a SDA belief. Even though some Adventists will say they don't believe in it - I would wonder WHY are they an Adventist if they don't believe in the IJ or EGW? (Looks like an integrity issue to me - follow something you don't believe in) 4. Guru-Type Leader/Modern Prophet "The cult leader is looked to as the infallible interpreter of Scripture, specially appointed by God to be a special saint, guru, or contemporary messiah, and thereby, has divine authority that must not be violated." I have read a SDA conference presidents piece in their conference communique on EGW and he compared her to Jeremiah, the prophet in the Bible. 5. Vacillating, Ambiguous Doctrines/Spiritual Deception Adventists believe that Jesus was "elevated" to the position of the Son of God, and that is what caused the "war in heaven". Yet if asked who is Jesus, and SDA will immediately say, "The Son of God". This implies a mainstream Christian belief - yet an SDA does not see Jesus as eternal with the Father. 6. Exclusivity from/Denunciation of Other Groups "Each cult group, regardless of what other doctrines are taught, will all have this one common idea -- "The Only True Church Syndrome." The members of each specific organization have been taught that their church, organization, or community, is the only true group and that all other groups are false ... To leave the group is, in the minds of the cult member, tantamount to leaving God." It is amazing to me that when I mentioned I was leaving Adventism, because I understood Grace and was following Jesus ... some of those I told cried ... not out of joy ... but because they thought I was "lost". Think about the doctrine of the "remnant" that SDA's hold. Again, some Adventists say, "Oh, I don't believe in that!" Then why are they an SDA? Because that doctrine IS one of the fundamental beliefs of the SDA Church. 7. Claims of Special Discoveries/Additional Revelation "Rather than conforming to Biblical rules of evidence (2 Cor. 13:1), cult leader revelations almost always emanate from hallucinations, visions, dreams, private discoveries, etc. These new revelations often become codified as official written "scripture" of the cults (e.g., The Book of Mormon), and are considered as valid as that of the apostles (and even more relevant because they are given in these end times)." 8. Defective Christology Ever hear the Adventist debate about whether Christ was like Adam before the fall, or was Christ like Adam after the fall, or was he both fully god and fully man, or ... and Adventists are still debating! 9. Defective "Nature of Man" "Most cults do not see man as an immortal being; instead they see him either as an animal without a soul or as a being which is being perfected to the point of becoming a god. They usually do not see man as a spirit clothed in a body of flesh awaiting the redemption of body and soul." Need I say more ... Adventists never fully deal with Rom. 3! And here is a quote from EGW, "God requires perfection of His children". (COL, pg. 315) 10. Out-Of-Context Scripture Use as Proof-Texts/Segmented Biblical Attention "Cults tend to focus on one verse or passage of the Bible to the exclusion of others, and without regard for the context in which Scripture is given (e.g., 1 Cor. 15:29 used by Mormons to justify baptism for the dead). In addition, cults have made an art form out of using Christian terminology, all the while pouring out their own meanings into the words." How many Adventists understand "proof-texting"?!! 11. Erroneous Doctrines Concerning Life After Death and Retribution "Covering the gamut from soul sleep to annihilationism to purgatory to universalism to the progression to godhood, cults invariably deny the existence of a final judgment of, and a final "resting" place for, the unrighteous." Only JW's and Adventists believe in soul sleep. And only JW's and Adventists believe in annihilation. 12. Entangling Organization Structure Hmmm ... SDA organizational structure; churches, conferences, unions, divisions, ahhh at last the general conference. ... hmmmm 13. Financial Exploitation Just heard an SDA pastor tell me that the conference they were working in was pressuring pastors to preach on stewardship ... to the point of having salvific implications - and that was in the U.S. 14. Pseudomystical/Spiritistic/Occultic Influence Ever see the pictures in the Center for Adventist Research in the James White Library of Andrews University that were commissioned by James White when he was alive ... It is interesting the progression of his commissioned pictures ... hmmm very, very, interesting. So is Adventism a sect? cult? or denomination? And when things don't add up in your mind about what you believe ... Do you just dismiss it? ... Live with cognitive dissonance? ... Or do you follow hard after Truth? - which by the way is NOT doctrine, but Jesus, Himself (John 14:6). Do you choose to live with integrity? Or do you just live with cognitive dissonance? You decide. *Quotes taken from http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/Cults/marksof.htm | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2997 Registered: 10-2004  |
I also came across that page awhile back, and found it to be amazing that Adventism fits each and every one of those marks of a cult! Keri, for those of us who haven't been there, could you explain more of what you're talking about under #14, regarding the pictures that James White commissioned? Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on September 09, 2009) | ||
| Bskillet Registered user Username: Bskillet Post Number: 578 Registered: 8-2008 |
Cult. It fulfills all of those except maybe the last one. | ||
| Seekinglight Registered user Username: Seekinglight Post Number: 398 Registered: 3-2009 |
In Cultic Doctrine (new revision), chapter 18 is devoted to this topic. | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 1811 Registered: 5-2007  |
Seekinglight, I have the new revision and have just read that chapter. However, I seemed to have missed or passed over the material you are refering to. Could you give the page/paragraph to help me zero in on your reference, regarding "the pictures that James White commissioned"? Phil | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 5475 Registered: 9-2006  |
Thanks Keri, I just copied and pasted your post to go incorporate into my story. You saved me a lot of work girl, I like it.  River | ||
| Seekinglight Registered user Username: Seekinglight Post Number: 400 Registered: 3-2009 |
Phil, Keri is the one who mentioned the James White commission. This aspect is not in Dale's book. I am also curious and looking forward to her explaining that concept further. | ||
| Jrt Registered user Username: Jrt Post Number: 812 Registered: 10-2008 |
Jeremy, Phil, and Seekinglight; I will try to write about it later this afternoon/evening - or it may not be until Friday. Also, in the Center For Adventist Research is a compilation of EGW private library that she had. She had quite a book collection that included books on spiritualism. Yep, spiritualism. One of the books in her personal library that is now housed there is entitled, "Lights and Shadows of Spiritualism" by D.D. Home. Another book in her personal library was entitled, "The Vicarious Sacrifice" by Horace Bushnell. As I skimmed this book on the Vicarious Sacrifice - I was struck that the author was declaring that we are NOT to hold that "Christ became penally subject to our deserved penalties. pg. 74" Bushnell lived from 1802-1876. Interesting huh ... I am not surprised we get the scapegoat as representing Satan in Adventist theology. This woman who is said to have only had a limited education - sure had a wealthy library for someone in that time period. Will write more later. It may not be until tomorrow. Oh, just a further thought. Dale's book, chapter 18 is a compilation that he made of what constitutes a cult. He used excellent sources. My thought is that whatever list you find, Adventism will fit at the very least 2/3 of the list that mark a cult. Makes a person wonder, huh. Keri | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 10371 Registered: 12-2003  |
Keri, go for it--talk about those pictures! Yes, they are very telling... Telling also is the fact that Ellen's visions were accompanied by paranormal manifestations including "not breathing", often a pink light and the smell of roses (see Syndey Cleveland's book White Washed), the fact that occultism is a fascination for people within Adventism, the fact that at the very core of Adventist theology and soteriology is—SATAN as the one who bears the punishment for the sins of the righteous and cleanses heaven by bearing them out of the heavenly records into the lake of fire. I know of no other Christian organization who takes the word of demons, as in the late Charles Morneau who wrote on prayer for the Adventists, as to whether or not Adventism is to be trusted. Morneau, a former spiritist immersed in the occult, wrote that he realized Adventism was the true religion when the spirits warned him against it as dangerous. Now tell me, who believes the words of demons? Demons deceive. But Adventism was pleased to publish Morneau's story, endorsing his "warning" as evidence that Adventism was God's true church. Colleen | ||
| Cloudwatcher Registered user Username: Cloudwatcher Post Number: 16 Registered: 5-2009 |
I have this little booklet by Mark Finley called Studying Together -- it tells SDAs how to reach others for Christ (and by others they mean Christians including Baptists, Presbyterians, Methodists, Episcopalians and those who attend "Bible churches"). Anyway, in it there's a list 5 identifying features of a cult: (let's see if they fit their own definition). Identifying feature #1 - Cults usually have a single, powerful human leader who becomes the cult's messiah. Identifying feature #2 - The cult leader's word, or his teachings, become absolute truth. Identifying feature #3 - Each cult uses "pressure" tactics to coerce its members into submission. Identifying feature #4 - Each cult denies the central truth of the gospel that Jesus is the divine Son of God Identifying feature #5 - Cults often urge their "converts" to leave their families. Incidentally - there's a section on how to reach formers... "Research indicates that most former Adventists do not leave the church because of doctrinal reasons...." ha ha ha | ||
| Animal Registered user Username: Animal Post Number: 686 Registered: 7-2008  |
Remember.... If it walks like a duck If it talks like a duck If it smells like a duck.... Guess what??.. IT'S A DUCK !!!!!! Animal..I am NOT a duck!!! | ||
| Seekinglight Registered user Username: Seekinglight Post Number: 402 Registered: 3-2009 |
As a lover of ducks and advocate for birds everywhere, I protest this comparison. My parrot just told me he agrees! | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2998 Registered: 10-2004 |
Colleen, I believe you're thinking of Roger Morneau, not Charles Morneau. Bskillet, I wouldn't even know where to start in describing/listing all of the things that match the last mark, "Pseudomystical/Spiritistic/Occultic Influence"--although Colleen did a good job summarizing some of it. The most obvious thing, however, is the fact that EGW had her very own spirit guide. Jeremy | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 1813 Registered: 5-2007 |
Seekinglight or Whomever, We have Canadian Geese all over the place and yes they are a beautiful bird I wouldn't want to go away. I love having them and even have a picture of them as my desktop on the computer. But, they do smell and there is nothing quite like the yucky experience of stepping in goose poop. No offense intended. Fearless Phil | ||
| Animal Registered user Username: Animal Post Number: 687 Registered: 7-2008 |
Animal humbly apologizes to the bird communities of the world as well as to bird lovers. Please forgive me, oh great parrot of Seekinglight. Maybe i should have used the word "trial lawyer" instead ?..LOL LOL -Animal | ||
| Seekinglight Registered user Username: Seekinglight Post Number: 405 Registered: 3-2009 |
Trial lawyer! ROFL. Much better, Animal BTW, my parrot and I were just joshin'. We both get quite a kick outta your posts, Animal! Phil, I've stepped in those "goose gifts" many a time. It's the gift that keeps on givin'! | ||
| Bskillet Registered user Username: Bskillet Post Number: 579 Registered: 8-2008 |
Sounds like something from those hemp-wearing hippie types. I wonder if Ellen smoked doob. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 5484 Registered: 9-2006 |
More like smoked goose poop. They didn't know they could smoke a rope back then. She might have snarkled the horse liniment out of the barn. I smoked a toke or two in my time when I was a hemp wearing hippie and believe me it don't make you that crazy. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 5485 Registered: 9-2006 |
Her spirit guide was probably dropping acid. That stuff will do you in. | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 1071 Registered: 7-2004  |
Other evidence of EGW's involvement with spiritualism: Her visions were supernatural experiences, and they were not from God. That only leaves one other source. Also, she received and followed instruction from her husband through dreams, after he had died. She couldn't possibly have believed it was really her husband, due to the SDA doctrinal teaching of the dead, yet she took his advice seriously and wanted more - I wonder who she thought was giving the advice? |
