| Author | Message | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 10372 Registered: 12-2003  |
Yes, Jeremy--Roger Morneau. Thank you! (And definitely, her own angel guide is a major clue...) Colleen | ||
| Jrt Registered user Username: Jrt Post Number: 813 Registered: 10-2008 |
Raven, Can you give me a reference about James coming back to Ellen in her dreams and giving her advice? I haven't heard of that before. Not that I don't believe you (I do!) - just I'd like to read it for my self and archive the source. Keri P.S. I'll describe the pictures tomorrow. | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2999 Registered: 10-2004  |
Keri, Here is a link to the "dead James dream": http://www.truthorfables.com/EGW_Talking_to_the_Dead_James.htm Notice that she took the dream as coming from God ("The Lord forbids me")! Jeremy | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 1046 Registered: 7-2007 |
Keri; Adventism certainly fits all those categories! Concerning number 5, though; in my over 50 years as an Adventist, I fully believed and always heard that Jesus was fully God and had always been equal to the Father. I wasn't until AFTER I found out that Adventism was a cult that I found a place where Ellen White wrote that - about Jesus being elevated to being equal to the Father. I found it in her book called "Spirit of Prophecy" volume One; at the beginning of the first chapter (about page 17). (I didn't even know she had written a book by that name. I had only heard ALL her works referred to by that name!) quote from this chapter: "The Father then made known that it was ordained by himself that Christ, his Son, should be equal with himself; so that wherever was the presence of his Son, it was as his own presence." And then the chapter continues on telling how Satan was "filled with envy and hatred." It goes on to say a little later: "Satan thought that he was himself a favorite in Heaven among the angels." ...and then a little later, concerning Satan's angry thoughts: "Why should Christ thus be honored before himself?" And then the chapter continues with Satan gathering the angels: "As one aggrieved, he related the preference God had given Jesus to the neglect of himself." | ||
| 8thday Registered user Username: 8thday Post Number: 1177 Registered: 11-2007  |
River.. I needed that laugh this morning.. thanks! Great thread btw! My vote: CULT!!!!!!! Oh, and we read the Morneau book too when we were sda. Very fearfully convincing at the time.. | ||
| Jrt Registered user Username: Jrt Post Number: 823 Registered: 10-2008 |
I mentioned talking more about #14) above: Pseudomystical/Spiritistic/Occultic Influence and the pictures commissioned by James White. I went to look at them today so that I would be able to accurately describe them. I took notes and want to clarify my original post. There were 3 pictures and James White commissioned #2 and #3 [according to what the description besides them indicates] James died before #3 was completed so Ellen White is the one who finished the "order" and the post beside the picture says that they aren't sure what James changed and what Ellen changed or added to the third picture. Picture 1 I just tried to find a picture online to be able to post to you. It is found in Ministry Magazine, Oct. 1992, pg. 9-11. This article includes #1 and #2 pictures. Guess what ... the pictures printed in Ministry Magazine, Oct. 1992, pg. 9-11 leave out the most telling features of the picture! Now I could be wrong - because it is hard to see exactly with the format I have it in (djvu) - but it looks like what is hanging in the Center for Adventist Research at Andrews University is different than what is printed in the Ministry Magazine. Someone will have to tell me how to post a pdf, tiff, or gif here and I can probably post at least pictures #1 & #2. Information beside poster in Center for Adventist Research at Andrews University: Merrit G. Kellog, brother of John Harvey Kellog commissioned the first engraving in 1873. the eye in the middle, to Kellog, represented the all-knowing characteristic of God. To many, however, the eye reminded them of various societies, such as the Masons, then quite prevalent and powerful in the U.S. The "EYE" is what is missing from Ministry Magazine and also the animal used for sacrifice is not so clear in Ministry Magazine. In the Center for Adventist Research the animal is clearly a GOAT! Description of Picture: In the center of picture #1 is a large tree with split at top of trunk where a HUGE EYE is seen. The tree has 10 branches. On the left split at the top of the tree are 4 branches; the right of split is 6 branches. Guess what is hanging from the tree? The Left side hangs the first four commandments; the right side the last 6 commandments. The eye is the creepy thing. Far left of whole picture is angel with sword raised and Adam and Eve. Cain and Abel are depicted with Abel dead by alter and Cain running off of picture. The priest is right near the tree with a stone alter, a man and a GOAT. There is a large sword by the man and a bowl. Jesus on the cross is on the close right of the tree. A shadow from the cross falls down from the cross covering the priest/alter and Cain/Abel and Adam and Eve. A River flows by the right side of the cross with a woman and man and it looks like a baptism. The last supper is depicted in the far right corner of the picture and the New Jerusalem in the top right corner. An angel is sitting on top of one of the columns of the New Jerusalem. The striking thing of this picture is that EYE in the split of the tree and the Goat for the sacrifice. *** I will post about Picture #2 tomorrow. I have to be up by 5:00am tomorrow and I still need to read several pages for a meeting at 6:45am. The meeting is 40 minutes from my home. Sorry, ... but I'll post more later. Picture #3 is very interesting!  ... just peeking your interest. P.S. Jeremy, thanks for the post above and link!! | ||
| Borninchrist Registered user Username: Borninchrist Post Number: 303 Registered: 1-2009  |
Unfortunately there is no way to post any pictures on the forum, Keri. We're waiting for the description of pic #3. | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 3002 Registered: 10-2004 |
Thanks for posting about these, Keri! It does look like they changed the picture for Ministry! Here's the link to the article, if anyone wants to check it out: http://www.adventistarchives.org/docs/MIN/MIN1992-10.pdf Did you want to post your own pictures that you took, Keri? If so, you could email me the pictures and I'll upload them to my webspace, if you want. Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on September 11, 2009) | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 10382 Registered: 12-2003 |
I don't remember the pictures totally clearly; I saw them this summer. But the first picture in Ministry appears to be altered. In some ways it seems more like the second picture as I remember, but even there, if it is like the second, it is altered. I'm so glad, Keri, that you went back and took notes. Those pictures have been on my mind since July, but I couldn't remember enough to really say anything. I tried to take a picture of the third one--but the reflection in the glass is pretty distorting. I do know that when I saw these pictures, I realized the occultic influence on the very early Adventists was real and probably pretty out in the open. I believe "things" got cleaned up as time passed... Frankly, I think Ellen's visions seemed pretty normal when she started having them. I think that the paranormal manifestations which were going on all around her in New England were pretty much similar to what she was experiencing. As time passed, I suspect the brethren knew they had to clean up their presentation if they wanted to continue to appear Christian...and I'm not even sure how "Christian" they wanted to appear at first... Colleen | ||
| 8thday Registered user Username: 8thday Post Number: 1182 Registered: 11-2007 |
If anyone gets those posted, I definitely want to see them!! Sondra | ||
| Handmaiden Registered user Username: Handmaiden Post Number: 127 Registered: 7-2008 |
There is no doubt at all that the sda from its inception is and always has been an insidious cult. The fact that it is not recognised as a cult for the most part by mainline Christianity is very disturbing to me. satan is far more dangerous in his angel suit than in his devil suit - that every one recognises. The catholic church meets 10 at least of the 14 signs of a cult and flagrantly boasts of its differences from Biblical Christianity and yet so many think that it is Christian too. It breaks my heart that there is sooooo much deception that poses as true christianity and so little discernment amoung genuine christians but i am hoping and praying that that will soon change. The true Jesus alone is all sufficient to save us entirely from our sins and false religion too. i am forever grateful that He saved me from my sins and delivered me from a false religion. He brought me out of the kindom of darkness into His glorious light. Praise the Name of Jesus lift up the Name of Jesus for the Name of Jesus lifted me. JOY JOY JOY He set me free i love to sit at His feet and worship the King of Kings love handmaiden | ||
| Cloudwatcher Registered user Username: Cloudwatcher Post Number: 26 Registered: 5-2009 |
A couple of you refered to EGWs "spirit guide." Never heard of this... tell me more. | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 3003 Registered: 10-2004 |
Cloudwatcher, EGW said that the same "young man of noble appearance" had visited her for 26 years (and this was only in 1875!). She called him by various names, such as her "Guide," her "Instructor," her "accompanying angel," "attending angel," etc. See more at this previous post of mine: http://www.formeradventist.com/discus/messages/5371/4604.html#POST60187 Also, for more about EGW's demonic/occultic experiences, see this old thread: http://www.formeradventist.com/discus/messages/7427/5462.html?1177938150 Also see the book White Washed by Sydney Cleveland, which has a whole chapter dealing with EGW's occultism. Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on September 12, 2009) | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 3004 Registered: 10-2004 |
At EGW's "Elmshaven" home, Ellen's angel would wake her up in the middle of the night and make her write. One former Adventist recounts the following:
And we know that it was not a holy angel! Jeremy | ||
| Jrt Registered user Username: Jrt Post Number: 826 Registered: 10-2008 |
Oops. Thanks, Colleen. I may need to clarify something. I might have made a mistake in my post #823. Ministry Magazine, Oct., 1992; pg. 9-11. The Magazine most likely printed picture #2 and they definitely printed #3. My mistake. I'm sorry, I was in such a hurry to post last night that I must not have been paying close attention. So it may be that Ministry Magazine didn't brush out the "eye" and "goat"; but rather published picture #2 which does have the "eye" missing and the "goat" has been changed to a lamb. What I posted about the description of picture #1 above is taken from the notes I took. And Picture #1 did have an "eye" and a "goat". The article in Ministry Magazine doesn't mention this first picture or describe it at all. There is no mention of the "eye". Which is telling. Nor is there mention of the goat. Picture 2 Information beside Poster #2 1876 James White liked Kellogg's engraving. He took the concept and improved aspects of it, principally the removal of the offending eye. The rays of light formerly coming from the eye now come from the New Jerusalem. There were several other small modifications, but the overall effect was the same. Description #2 is very similar to #1 except The "eye" is taken out. Tree is still there with the ten commandments hanging from it. The goat is changed to a lamb. The people who are being baptized look a little different than in #1. So now here is the question for you to have some fun with ... The link Jeremy has posted above for Ministry Magazine does look like they have printed picture #3. The clarity is a little more obscured in the link to the magazine (than the actual picture), BUT you can make out the "thing" in picture #3 that is weird and out of place and telling of occultishness. It is not something "hidden" like pictures where you try to find 8 horses , rather it is in the picture as a part of the picture; not hidden. See if you can find it and I'll post more later about #3. Keri P.S. Jeremy lets see what we can do about the pictures ... I might not be able to get to it until later in the week coming up. Sondra - we'll see what we can do. | ||
| Jrt Registered user Username: Jrt Post Number: 834 Registered: 10-2008 |
Picture 3 Information beside the Poster 1883 Ellen White published 3rd version. Now no doubt Christ is the central element of the picture. The law is still present though removed to the background in the image of Mt. Sinai. Published 5 years before the 1888 emphasis. Shows that she was ahead of most of the church in her understanding of the central role of Christ in our salvation. Description In the background far left upper corner is Mt. Sinai with black clouds and lightening. There is an angel with a sword as in #1 & #2. Cain and Abel are again represented with Abel dead by the alter. There is a priest and man and lamb by an alter again. Christ on the cross is near the center of the poster. Again, as in #1 & #2 there is a river to the right of the main object - in this case the cross. In the river is a baptism. The last supper is on the bottom right of the picture with the New Jerusalem pictured in the top right corner. Between the last supper and the New Jerusalem is another mountain with a "split" in the top. Not sure what that is. Now, here is the really crazy thing ... and it is quite clear in the original picture that is hanging in the Center for Adventist Research at Andrews University. This summer as I was looking at the picture at the same time as someone else - we both exclaimed at that same moment what we saw. STONEHENGE. It is at the bottom right of Mt. Sinai in the picture. The other strange thing is this picture has either another picture of Stonehenge or a pagan type temple superimposed in front of the pyramids of Egypt. This is by the left hip of Jesus hanging on the cross in picture #3. Again, I want to say that Stonehenge is very clear from the original picture hanging in the Center for Adventist Research at Andrews University. Stonehenge is recognizable in the magazine, though a bit more obscure based on electronic resolution. Archeologists have determined that there are several hundred burial grounds directly surrounding Stonehenge. Stonehenge Information Archeologists have determined that Stonehenge was built up over many years. There are two major theories to Stonehenge. It was a place where people traveled for healing from all over the world (based on the excavations of the buriel sites) or Stonehenge was a part of a ritualistic landscape as a passage from life to death. Specifically, Stonehenge being a place of the dead. In the 1870's Stonehenge began to attract attention (which would be shortly before picture #3's copyright date). Specifically, during this time period, Stonehenge attracted neo-paganism, Druidism (which has human sacrifices), and new age philosophy. In Roman understanding Druidism included the transmigration of the "soul" - especially it's reincarnation after death [which is popular amongst Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism]. In the first half of the twentieth century Druidism developed a modern organization based on Freemasonry. Also, archeology has determined that the construction of Stonehenge highlights the "longest day of the year", summer's solstice and the "shortest day of the year", winter's solstice. Both of these days are celebrations for paganistic religions and satanism. We can be clear about one thing; Stonehenge is not Christian and definitely pagan. You may want to "google" Stonehenge and do your own research. So I would ask "WHY?" would Stonehenge appear in a commissioned engraving by the founders of Adventism? It doesn't make sense unless there is some sort of tie to something other than Christianity - more specifically, a tie to Pseudomystical/Spiritistic/Occultic Influence. | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 1050 Registered: 7-2007 |
Also, doesn't Ellen White have an obelisk on her grave? Isn't an obelisk, pagan? | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 3009 Registered: 10-2004 |
Wow, Keri, thanks for all of this information (and for going back there to look at the pictures)! I didn't notice the Stonehenge, but I did notice that strange-looking temple/building behind the cross. I wonder what that's all about?! Asurprise, Yes, the obelisk was actually placed there on James' grave while Ellen was still alive. Apparently, she is the one who had it placed there! And yes, the obelisk is pagan, connected with Baal worship (which is the basis for Freemasonry, which Ellen was also involved in). Obelisks are even mentioned in the Bible. If you want to be spooked out further, see this post: http://www.formeradventist.com/discus/messages/7427/6262.html#POST83436 Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on September 13, 2009) | ||
| Pegg Registered user Username: Pegg Post Number: 379 Registered: 2-2006 |
Didn't Ellen write someone a Testimony and make him quit Freemasonry? Pegg | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 3010 Registered: 10-2004 |
It was a verbal, in-person "testimony," and the way that she convinced the man that she had gotten a "message" that he needed to quit was because she had used a "secret hand sign" known only to the highest-ranking Freemasons, during her message. But the spookiest part of all is that she told him that she was just making the same hand gesture that her angel had made when giving her the message! How the Adventists can believe that this angel and event was of God is beyond me! Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on September 13, 2009) |
