| Author |
Message |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 10395
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, September 13, 2009 - 11:43 pm: |     |
Yes, Stonehenge is clearly visible. Thanks for the background into, Keri. And that pagan temple and the pyramids in the center are also weird. Pyramids are occultic symbols, too...and they really have no significant place in a salvation history account.
Another thing that struck me more and more forcibly as I went back and stared at the picture I took of this engraving this summer is that Jesus is still on the cross, and there is NO empty tomb. So the central point of the picture is an eternally crucified Jesus and no resurrection. It's especially interesting to me, given the eternally "dead" Jesus and the lack of an empty tomb, that the symbolic references to the the dead and the passage from life to death represented by Stonehenge are pictured.
Colleen |
Nowisee
Registered user
Username: Nowisee
Post Number: 104
Registered: 5-2009
| | Posted on Monday, September 14, 2009 - 10:14 am: | |
Jeremy, maybe you & the others have seen this, but if you google Loma Linda University Libraries, click on databases, then adventist heritage databases, then eg white estate & eg white estate photos, you can see these floral arrangements you talked about in your Oct.16, 2007 post by doing a search for egw funeral. I'm sure there is an easier way to do this but I don't know alot about computers!!! I tried putting the address on here, but it wouldn't work--you guys are all pretty savy with computers, so I know you'll be able to find these photos! |
Nowisee
Registered user
Username: Nowisee
Post Number: 105
Registered: 5-2009
| | Posted on Monday, September 14, 2009 - 10:45 am: | |
In case I'm being confusing, this is in reference to Jeremy's 3009 post above with the link to a previous thread which discusses two masonic type floral arrangements that were at her funeral in Battle Creek. My computer is acting up this morning, so I will try again to post the LLU link: www.llu.edu/library. |
Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 3011
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Monday, September 14, 2009 - 11:54 am: | |
Thanks, Nowisee! Here are a few of the photos:
http://lluweb2.llu.edu/heritage/WhitePhotosInfo.asp?PhotoID=939
http://lluweb2.llu.edu/heritage/WhitePhotosInfo.asp?PhotoID=938
http://lluweb2.llu.edu/heritage/WhitePhotosInfo.asp?PhotoID=936
Jeremy |
Jrt
Registered user
Username: Jrt
Post Number: 837
Registered: 10-2008
| | Posted on Monday, September 14, 2009 - 12:51 pm: | |
This will be brief.
I've been "thinking" about your post, Colleen. If you look at the link that Jeremy gave to the Ministry Magazine above. (I'll post it here).
http://www.adventistarchives.org/docs/MIN/MIN1992-10.pdf
The cover of the Magazine is Jesus ON the cross.
As I've thought about it ... many SDA "pictures" have Jesus still on the cross; with no empty tomb.
And that is the bottom line, isn't it. Jesus. We can talk about all kinds of things and the "weirdness" of doctrines, occultishness, supernatural, etc. But foundational is what and how does a person see Jesus.
Is he fully God, who became incarnate, suffered horribly, paid our debt, physically rose again, and has always been and continues to always be fully God.
A cross with Jesus still on it. How telling ... wow, thanks for that post.
Keri |
Hec
Registered user
Username: Hec
Post Number: 549
Registered: 3-2009
| | Posted on Monday, September 14, 2009 - 1:23 pm: | |
SDA criticizes the Catholics because of their use of the crucifix. They say that the crucifix has Jesus still on the cross, and Jesus is not on the cross. I guess when the Catholics use it, it's wrong, but when they use it it's OK.
Hec |
Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 3021
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, September 17, 2009 - 3:33 pm: | |
In working on my website last night, I noticed something in one of the EGW quotes that I think had creeped me out a bit before, but I had kind of just ignored it. Here is the quote:
quote:"As the Prince of life and the shining ones approached the grave, they were opposed by Satan with his company of evil angels, who were determined that the power of death should not be broken. But the glory attending the Son of God compelled the hosts of darkness to fall back. Satan insolently claimed the body of Moses because of his one transgression. Christ condescended to enter into no dispute with his adversary but meekly referred all to his Father, saying, 'The Lord rebuke thee.' Moses had humbly repented of his sin, no stain rested upon his character, and his name in Heaven's book of records stood untarnished. By the power of his word, Christ opened the prison-house, and set death's captive free." (The Signs of the Times, 03-31-1881, "The Death of Moses," paragraph 14.)
(A similar quote is also found in Patriarchs and Prophets, page 478, paragraphs 3-4.)
The part about meekly referring all to his Father is bad enough, but the phrase "the shining ones" caught my attention. Even though it is definitely spooky since it's in EGW's writings, I at first thought, "Well, it must be a Biblical phrase, or at least a common Christian phrase, for angels." Wrong! It is found nowhere in the Bible. And if you do a Google search for that phrase, you will see that is an occultic term.
Just thought I would pass along some more evidence of EGW's occultism that I found (like we needed any more!).
Jeremy |
Jrt
Registered user
Username: Jrt
Post Number: 843
Registered: 10-2008
| | Posted on Thursday, September 17, 2009 - 4:52 pm: | |
Interesting, ...
You know what also struck me Jeremy, by the quote you use above ... The reference that it was Moses "repenting" and so "no stain rested upon his character" - inferring that repentance was the means of salvation for Moses.
And then ... what about Christ condescending to Satan - as also referenced in the quote. That is SO wrong. Christ doesn't have to "condescend" to anyone! He is fully God and Sovereign over evil. That inference makes me angry! But it all goes back to a Jesus that was elevated to the status of "Son of God" and the whole "Great Controversy" theme of EGW.
Keri |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 10410
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, September 17, 2009 - 4:59 pm: | |
Oh my goodness, Jeremy--I just did the Google search. You're totally right. There's no doubt about the origin of that term, "the shining ones". It's widely known in occultic circles with many books written and even an old but active secret society built up around them.
You know, it's not possible to explain away the increasing numbers of evidences that Ellen and James had ties to the occult or the "dark side". The evidences are just too numerous and varied. The reason most of us haven't recognized them before is that we were sheltered from the occult.
Adventism has hidden in plain sight for too long. But you know what? God Himself is revealing the truth. As Richard said to me today, no one could expose the truth about Adventism; it has to be God who does it. They are too big, too developed, and too clever.
But God is sovereign, and He will reveal truth in His time—He IS revealing truth. To quote a phrase, "God never lets anyone sin successfully forever."
Think about it: when you factor in the unbiblical, satan-centric points of SDA atonement with the scapegoat being satan, the weak Jesus, the incomplete atonement at the cross, and now these evidences of occultic influences—I just want to ask people to stand back far enough to let these individual "components" resolve into a whole picture.
It just isn't biblical Christianity. It bears no resemblance to the gospel of God.
God is calling us to trust Him!
Colleen |
Raven
Registered user
Username: Raven
Post Number: 1075
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, September 17, 2009 - 5:00 pm: | |
Here's a website I came across while googling on "shining ones":
http://www.guidedbiblestudies.com/topics/virtues.htm
quote:The Catholic Church refers to the Virtues (sometimes referred to as "the shining ones") as the spirits of motion that govern nature, have control over seasons, stars, moon and sun, as well as in charge of miracles, and providing courage, grace and valor.
So I guess "shining ones", doesn't necessarily have to be an occultic term, even if there is no support for the term from the Bible. It could have just been folk lore.
(Message edited by Raven on September 17, 2009) |
Pegg
Registered user
Username: Pegg
Post Number: 392
Registered: 2-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, September 17, 2009 - 5:07 pm: | |
Probably words she read or heard that caught her fancy.
Pegg |
Nowisee
Registered user
Username: Nowisee
Post Number: 107
Registered: 5-2009
| | Posted on Friday, September 18, 2009 - 12:25 am: | |
Jeremy--Been gone a few days & wanted to thank you for your help re: those pictures. After doing some studying of SDA history, it is so interesting to see photos of some of the people I've been reading about. Ellen W's twin, from what I've found, didn't believe in her own twin as a prophet & remained a Methodist til her death.
Keri, it's been my experience (& I'm 4th gen) that the SDA church really doesn't like to emphasize the empty tomb/Christ's resurrection. My theory is that they really don't want to promote anything that might lend credence to Sunday as an important day. We always did Easter eggs when I was little, but really never a mention of Jesus rising victoriously.
And, maybe it's because it's late, but I don't get what she's saying in the 'shining ones' quote about Christ 'approaching the grave'. Is she talking about Christ approaching death/dying? Then how could she say the 'shining ones' were approaching death/grave & include them with Christ? They weren't dying. The whole quote seems like nonsense to me. How exactly did Satan & his angels 'oppose Jesus' to stop Him from dying? Then she throws 'Jesus is an archangel' into the paragraph. Oops! False Jesus! |
Helovesme2
Registered user
Username: Helovesme2
Post Number: 2185
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Friday, September 18, 2009 - 5:28 am: | |
It was referring to Satan and his angels trying to stop Jesus from rising again, not dying. |
Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 3023
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Friday, September 18, 2009 - 11:20 am: | |
Actually, she's referring to her made up story of Moses' supposed resurrection.
And notice how it does take away from the death and resurrection of Jesus--she even speaks of "the power of death" being "broken"--in reference to Moses' supposed resurrection!
Jeremy
(Message edited by Jeremy on September 18, 2009) |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 10414
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 18, 2009 - 11:44 am: | |
Yes, Jeremy--that thought has occurred to me before, also. Moses couldn't have been resurrected in order to appear on the Mt of Transfiguration. If he had, Jesus would not have been the Firstfruit from among the dead.
The Bible doesn't say that Moses and Elijah had resurrection bodies. It only said they appeared, brilliant, with Jesus. God has always been able to cause spirits to be visible if necessary. Angels can be visible when needed. Even the "angel of the Lord" in the OT, usually thought to be the pre-incarnate Jesus, appeared visibly to Abraham, Gideon, Samson's parents, etc.
Firstfruits are firstfruits. Jesus is the Firstfruit from the dead--and He could only break the power of death after experiencing death. The whole drama of the curse, death and resurrection had to be played out in human flesh in order for the power of death to be broken. And only Jesus, the perfect human who was also God, could fulfill all that. Only He could both represent us because He both shared our flesh, and He was sinless—because He was born of God and never had a spiritually dead spirit.
He was the only human ever born with the Life of God in Him from conception. His Spirit was never depraved. Every one of us is conceived with a depraved spirit.
Colleen |
Hec
Registered user
Username: Hec
Post Number: 555
Registered: 3-2009
| | Posted on Friday, September 18, 2009 - 4:12 pm: | |
OK, I understand that Moses could have been in spirit at the transfiguration. However, wasn't Moses in Sheol (paradise, Abraham bosom) at the time? Before Jesus resurrection saved spirits were no in heaven yet. Elijah was in heaven because he went there without tasting death.
What was the dispute between Michael and Satan concerning Moses' body about?
Hec |
Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 3024
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Friday, September 18, 2009 - 4:22 pm: | |
The JFB commentary says:
quote:Josephus [Antiquities,4.8], states that God hid Moses' body, lest, if it had been exposed to view, it would have been made an idol of. Jude, in this account, either adopts it from the apocryphal "assumption of Moses" (as Origen [Concerning Principalities, 3.2] thinks), or else from the ancient tradition on which that work was founded. Jude, as inspired, could distinguish how much of the tradition was true, how much false. We have no such means of distinguishing, and therefore can be sure of no tradition, save that which is in the written word.
Jeremy |
Asurprise
Registered user
Username: Asurprise
Post Number: 1054
Registered: 7-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, September 19, 2009 - 1:11 pm: | |
Hec, I don't know; but one thing that we can know is that Moses and Elijah represented the law and the prophets. They disappeared and only Jesus was left. In the same way, the law and prophets have been fulfilled and only Jesus is left! |
Nowisee
Registered user
Username: Nowisee
Post Number: 110
Registered: 5-2009
| | Posted on Saturday, September 19, 2009 - 4:48 pm: | |
Duh! That first sentence sounded like it was referring to Jesus' death when I first read it. I guess I assumed it because of the 'power of death being broken' phrase because that's what Jesus did on the cross. After reading this, no wonder I was confused as an SDA!
BTW, did any of you notice the Mason in full regalia in the LLU White estate archives. Use the link Jeremy provided & look at Vol. 7, # 14 & 17. Interesting. Also see if you can find the close-up of egw in casket.
I humbly thank God He called us out into His light!!!!! How awesome is that?! |
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