| Author | Message | ||
| 4truth Registered user Username: 4truth Post Number: 25 Registered: 2-2006 |
I don't post here much, but I read sometimes and appreciate your opinions. I joined an ELCA church many years ago and have appreciated the focus on the Gospel and salvation by faith. Now that we have voted to accept gay clergy if the congregation desires it I am greatly troubled. Is disagreeing with a certain "social" statement reason enough to leave the congregaton I am deeply involved with? Right now I have a hard time thinking I can stay ELCA. Where can I go? Where will it stop? If theology didn't matter I would still be an SDA like most of my family. I hate this....... | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 10404 Registered: 12-2003  |
Welcome back 4truth! I understand your dilemma. We actually have a friend in apologetics who is treating the ELCA as a cult—and he's a Lutheran. It's not because of a "social statement"—it's because of their lack of respect for the actual words of Scripture. I so understand what you feel. Honoring the Bible as the inerrant word of God really is foundational to a church's doctrinal integrity. It was precisely the dishonoring of the plain meaning of Scripture and of the sufficiency of God's word that made Adventism what it is. God knows--He will lead you to a church where you can grow. I know it's hard, and sometimes it takes time...but it is important to be where you know the word of God is truly honored. (And please don't "hear" me saying I have an issue with gay people. I'm only saying that 1 Timothy and Titus are really clear about the qualifications for church leaders, and sexuality is one of the issues that must meet biblical standards. Membership is completely different from preaching and leadership.) Colleen | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 1571 Registered: 6-2006  |
Hi 4Truth, Have you spoken to your pastor about this? My church is ELCA as well and we're actually in the process of deciding which direction to go. We're definitely leaving this synod. My pastor is researching others and we'll have a congregational vote about it very soon. I agree with you ~ the whole thing is very troubling. I wonder how many congregations there are who do not agree with the vote, and if there will be some kind of reorganization of the ones that don't want to stay. Leigh Anne | ||
| Skeeter Registered user Username: Skeeter Post Number: 329 Registered: 12-2007 |
4truth, I think you are correct when you say "if theology didnt matter I would still be an SDA...." As for you staying in the church you now attend or searching for another... the only advice I can give is to pray and follow God's leading. Do what the Holy Spirit puts on your heart. I am sure we all wish for a "permanent" church home... but sometimes God has us in one place for a time, to learn and grow and then He calls us to move on for new learning, new growth, perhaps new relationships, new friendships. Which ever is the case for you.. staying or leaving... God will be there beside you and guide you to where he wants you. If it is for a lifetime or just a short while... I believe our relationship with Him needs to continue to grow...staying in one place can be comfortable... but moving on can sometimes bring on a whole set of new blessings we never imagined. Follow your heart. I used to feel so angry and confused about why God would allow me to be SDA for so long.. like it was all wasted time when I could have been learning truth instead of error... sometimes I still feel that way.. but it is getting less and less... now I realize that there was a reason for me being there. I still dont fully understand what it was.. but God does. Maybe God knew I would not be able to fully appreciate His gift of love, the gift of His sacrifice, the free gift of salvation..freedom from all those SDA/ EGW rules... if I had not FIRST known the bondage those things hold. I have not yet joined another church (as in a building of members.. or as our friend River calls them "stick churches") My church for right now at least is time spent in God's word, on this forum with my new found Christian brothers and sisters, and an occasional visit to a church with my son and Grandchildren. I like their church,I like the people, they teach only the Bible, maybe I will decide to join them as a member someday,, maybe not.. I dont know. I am going to wait and see when and where the Lord leads me. Francie | ||
| 8thday Registered user Username: 8thday Post Number: 1211 Registered: 11-2007  |
Praying God leads you into fellowship grounded on God's Word and living His love.. It is hard to move on, but He will be with you. Sondra | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 5531 Registered: 9-2006  |
Me...I had rather be a rat on a floating board than a human on a sinking ship singing glory all the way to the bottom. If my stick church starts that crap I won't even yell, "I'm outa here!" lest someone hears me and beats me to the door! | ||
| Bskillet Registered user Username: Bskillet Post Number: 587 Registered: 8-2008 |
My personal feeling: Who needs a denomination? Is the body of Christ divided? Just ask God to put you together with brothers and sisters who truly love His Son and each other. | ||
| 4truth Registered user Username: 4truth Post Number: 26 Registered: 2-2006 |
Thanks one and all. I have certainly talked to my pastor and I am on the church council (president, no less). We have sent out a questionaire to try to guage our member's reaction to this ruling. The pastor knows I and others will probably leave the congregation if we stay ELCA. There are definitely some members that feel strongly the ELCA did the right thing. What a mess we have gotten into! God help us. Thanks for your thoughts and prayers. I will keep you posted. (Message edited by 4TRUTH on September 16, 2009) | ||
| 4truth Registered user Username: 4truth Post Number: 27 Registered: 2-2006 |
Again, thanks for your responses. I have read them several times. I just came back from a council meeting and it seems there is little desire to leave the ELCA (even though several church members said they would leave). My pastor doesn't agree with homo clergy at all and is broken up about it. At a congregational level I am being fed Biblical truths and fellowship, but at a synodal and national level there is great heresy. I suppose this is happening at some SDA churches, too. (I'm sure about the heresy there  ) Would you stay in a denomination that promotes some heresy, as long as it isn't preached from the pulpit and you don't endorse it? (Message edited by 4TRUTH on September 24, 2009) | ||
| Gcfrankie Registered user Username: Gcfrankie Post Number: 595 Registered: 1-2007 |
Is your pastor so unhappy about this situation of homosexual pastors etc in the ELCA be willing to leave with the rest of you and maybe start a home study group and eventually a non-denominational church? I remember back in the late 50's-60's (I think) when the Presbytarian churches went through a simular situation (not homosexual pastors) and many people along with pastors left. If I remember right theirs was over high-up doctrinal issues. I have heard people say it does not matter what goes on in the church but what matters is being taught the true word of God. How can they teach the true word of God when they are not walking in step with Him? The old saying is, 'actions speak louder than words'. Here is a question for you and that is isn't heresy a sin against God? Titus spells out very clearly the qualifications of being a leader in a church are. Back in those days they did not have pastors as we do today. They were called elders and leaders. What I don't understand is how can they preach that homosexual is a sin against God and then allow for homosexual pastors and leaders. I am praying for you as to what you need to do. Gail | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 565 Registered: 3-2009 |
I am not well verse in this issue. Are this pastors "practicing Homosexuals" or just the orientation. Hec | ||
| Pegg Registered user Username: Pegg Post Number: 409 Registered: 2-2006 |
I am concerned about this issue as well. While the church I attend is likely even more conservative than I am and so I'm quite sure this would not be an issue on a church level, the denomination has a distinctly liberal and active component in the constituency. I think it's a real possibility that we will face this exact question at some point. I am convinced that practicing homosexuality is no worse sin than practicing gossip. Thing is, Scripture has clear guidelines about holding church office... ...Doesn't it also say the leader should be the husband of only one wife (could he be divorced for other than adultery?)I know what I think emotionally...Objectively, I'm not sure I know what to think. Pegg (Message edited by pegg on September 25, 2009) | ||
| 4truth Registered user Username: 4truth Post Number: 29 Registered: 2-2006 |
My pastor is very unhappy with the ELCA, but thinks it is not his place to push the congregation from tne denomination. The ELCA position used to be a pastor could consider themselves to be homosexual, as long as they were celebate. Now anything goes, I guess. The thing that bothers me the most is not necessarily that they would let a gay pastor in, (we're all sinners) but they refuse to call the lifestyle a sin. (read the Bible!). My pastor's wife said to him, "but where would you go". To me that reasoning is a open invitation to condone heresy whenever it pops up. Maybe this is God's plan to move me somewhere else to imrove my spiritual life and to somehow use me to help the lives of others. Thanks for your repies. I feel kinda bad posting here basically only when I have a problem. God bless! | ||
| Martin Registered user Username: Martin Post Number: 87 Registered: 11-2008 |
"But where would you go?" Wherever God would lead... I guess that would be the correct answer to that question. No difference to wondering where would you go when you leave Adventism. | ||
| Jeremiah Registered user Username: Jeremiah Post Number: 439 Registered: 1-2004  |
The Lutherans didn't appreciate being called innovators by the Greek Orthodox back in the 1500's. Martin Luther actually thought very highly of the Greek Christians. The Lutherans were trying to return the Church to the condition it was before the Roman innovations. Maybe there's something inherent in the western version of Christianity that makes innovation a necessity. Like the Specialized bicycle company... "innovate or die!" In America especially we think that if something doesn't change it must be dead. There is a tendency to consider the Christian teachings "old" and "outdated". Today people outside of Christianity can't understand why there is a difference between homosexual relationships and what has traditionally been called marriage. There are calls to "update" Christianity or see Christianity become extinct. But God is the ultimate example of unchangeability, and God is anything but dead! And I would suggest that a person seeking an unchanging church on earth should look to the Christian East like the Lutherans did so long ago. An explanation of the Lutheran-Orthodox dialogue in history can be found here; http://www.stpaulsirvine.org/html/lutheran.htm Jeremiah | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1808 Registered: 4-2000  |
As Christians, we truly need each other. We are not lone rangers as believers. We are biblically-admonished not to avoid assembling together. My advice is to join a church family that most closely resembles your biblical understanding. If your biblical understanding varies in the future, simply make the required changes as to where you attend church. Of course, no changes are needed if the issues involved are not salvational in nature. Dennis Fischer | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 7533 Registered: 3-2004  |
Thanks Dennis. As Pastor Jud, inadvertently, pushes my buttons when he has his once a year talk on finances and talks about tithe, IT IS NOT A SALVATION ISSUE. Sorry for the caps. I like every thing else about the church God told me to attend and I have gotten active in it. Diana L | ||
| Pegg Registered user Username: Pegg Post Number: 413 Registered: 2-2006 |
There you go, Diana! Because tolerance of Christian Freedom is an important tenet of the church I attend we are far from homogeneous in our beliefs. Sometimes I wish for the "good old days" when everything was spelled out in black and white and we could have a good rip-roaring arugment about one word in a sentence. What I've found though, is that this tolerance has allowed room for me to grow and allows room for continued growth. Whenever I get to thinking my brethren really should believe just like I do about one thing or another (or wondering if I should believe like they do), I've learned to ask myself..."Well, when I arrive on the other side, will St. Peter probably be standing at the door asking me, 'What did you believe about_______?" This Makes It Easy To Identify The Disputable Issues. Pegg | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1809 Registered: 4-2000 |
Diana, Good point about the issue of tithing. In smaller or rural communities, it is often difficult or impossible to find a church that exactly teaches every single detail the way we believe. In these cases, we can simply overlook issues of a non-salvational nature. If, however, tithing becomes a test of fellowship or of salvation, then it becomes a serious matter to address. Unfortunately, some preachers often prefer the word "tithe" to inflict a sense of guilt in their parishioners. Apparently, the word "tithe" sounds much more compelling than simply talking about an "offering." Some tithing pastors have privately admitted to me that the OT tithing codes are no longer binding, but they are afraid to lessen the language or rhetoric because that might reduce congregational giving even more. Dennis Fischer (Message edited by Dennis on September 26, 2009) | ||
| Loneviking Registered user Username: Loneviking Post Number: 671 Registered: 7-2000 |
'But where would you go?'. What's wrong with the Lutheran Church, Missouri Synod? That should be the first choice for those leaving ELCA. | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 573 Registered: 3-2009 |
Would this kind of "heresy" place ELCA in the same level as SDA? Hec | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 10444 Registered: 12-2003 |
Hec, it would not. The reason is that the Lutheran church grew up out of orthodox doctrine. The Adventist church is not rooted in orthodoxy. It was grown entirely from heresy, from a deceptive, Arian or semi-arian root with an incomplete atonement. That being said, if a denomination swerves from biblical truth, we have to be aware and react appropriately. But the difference is that, if the denomination wanted to reform, it could if it is founded on biblical truth. An organization like Adventism cannot "reform" because its root is inherently flawed. Colleen | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 5562 Registered: 9-2006 |
To reform, in this sense most nearly means restoration to biblical principles. Adventist have nothing to reform on so it is impossible for them. It has to all be chucked out and start new and clean. River | ||
| Gcfrankie Registered user Username: Gcfrankie Post Number: 603 Registered: 1-2007 |
In yesterdays paper there was an article about the ELCA on what to do with those who oppose the vote to let homosexuals with long time partners be pastors and leaders in the church. From what I read there is to be a conference as to whether to have a division for those churhes that do not want any part of the homosexual agenda because they see it as against Gods' teaching. It was asking the churches not to pull out as it would financially hurt ELCA but to stay until they can come up with a solution first. Boy, this statement sure sent up red-flags for me as to what is more important, the teachings of the bible or the money. If some churches choose to stay, is this not condoning the sinful nature of these people? The church has sure put itself into a dilemma. I am praying that they will listen to God. Gail | ||
| 4truth Registered user Username: 4truth Post Number: 30 Registered: 2-2006 |
I think the ELCA is in big trouble. In my estimate the people who will leave are likely to be the ones most spritually discerning, and probably most financially supporting, as a whole. Loneviking, I'm sure I will visit a LCMS congregation or two if things don't work out here. | ||
| 4truth Registered user Username: 4truth Post Number: 31 Registered: 2-2006 |
Dennis and/or Peg. Do you think this welcoming of homosexual clergy by the denomination would fall into a non-salvational and tolerance issue? Thanks. | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1810 Registered: 4-2000 |
4truth, Thank you for your excellent question. It is only a salvational matter when practicing homosexuals are allowed as clergymen. It is the yielding, not the orientation, to this forbidden lifestyle that makes it cosmic treason and a crime. Just because we are born with various troublesome tendencies doesn't mean we should act upon them and make them our lifestyle. Our sovereign God may not remove every "thorn" in our lives, but He supplies the grace and strength to successfully endure any obstacles. In addition to having good character, ministers need a good reputation as well. In other words, pastors (shepherds) need to be above public reproach or disgrace--especially in sexual matters. Dennis Fischer | ||
| Doc Registered user Username: Doc Post Number: 429 Registered: 2-2003  |
Dennis, I agree, wow that may be a first. (Please tolerate my humour as well!) Adrian |
