| Author | Message | ||
| Pegg Registered user Username: Pegg Post Number: 261 Registered: 2-2006 |
Sunday School - "Deciding To Follow" Friends I am asking for your thoughts: Following is the Scripture passage for this week's Sunday School, which I have to lead in the absence of the regular group leader. The lesson title is listed above. While the teacher's commentary is useful, I am not thrilled with it. I am beginning to formulate my own ideas, but they are hardly well developed. I want to put this passage in the context in which it was given and examine it's application for the New Covenant Believer. I could really use some help! Deuteronomy 30:1-10 1 When all these blessings and curses I have set before you come upon you and you take them to heart wherever the LORD your God disperses you among the nations, 2 and when you and your children return to the LORD your God and obey him with all your heart and with all your soul according to everything I command you today, 3 then the LORD your God will restore your fortunes [a] and have compassion on you and gather you again from all the nations where he scattered you. 4 Even if you have been banished to the most distant land under the heavens, from there the LORD your God will gather you and bring you back. 5 He will bring you to the land that belonged to your fathers, and you will take possession of it. He will make you more prosperous and numerous than your fathers. 6 The LORD your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, so that you may love him with all your heart and with all your soul, and live. 7 The LORD your God will put all these curses on your enemies who hate and persecute you. 8 You will again obey the LORD and follow all his commands I am giving you today. 9 Then the LORD your God will make you most prosperous in all the work of your hands and in the fruit of your womb, the young of your livestock and the crops of your land. The LORD will again delight in you and make you prosperous, just as he delighted in your fathers, 10 if you obey the LORD your God and keep his commands and decrees that are written in this Book of the Law and turn to the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. Supporting passages that are listed include: A Pledge Of Obedience - Joshua 24:14-24 Turn To The Lord - Deuteronomy 30 Observe God's Laws - Psalm 105:37-45 Obey Christ's Commands - Matthew 28:16-20 A Gracious And Merciful God - Nehemiah 9:16-20 To Love God Is To Obey - 1 John 5:1-5 I Love You, O Lord - Psalm 18:1-6 Thank You In Advance Pegg  I have posted this request on CARM, also. Apologies for redundancy. | ||
| Bskillet Registered user Username: Bskillet Post Number: 555 Registered: 8-2008 |
Not a problem, really. Just compare v. 1 to: Read the rest of the verses through verse 10. It is a prophecy about the coming Messiah and His gathering us to Himself. | ||
| Pegg Registered user Username: Pegg Post Number: 262 Registered: 2-2006 |
That's Good, Brent! I want to make sure I have the context right before I get into making application, though. I think this is a Land and Prosperity Covenant with the COI, where God will provide land and prosperity as long as they give Him their full allegiance which includes following all of the nuances of the Law. But then He says He will circumcise their hearts. I don't think this happened for COI as a whole. I think it is a NC thing that came only after Christ ascended ("It is expedient that I should go...") I think it did happen for individuals, David perhaps for example. The teacher's commentary says that after they returned from the last captivity Isreal never wholesale followed after idols again, and that this was a result of the circumcising part. What do you think of that? Pegg | ||
| Bskillet Registered user Username: Bskillet Post Number: 556 Registered: 8-2008 |
Baloney. Their final idolatry was far worst than their first. They became addicted to the idolatry of their own self-righteousness and pride. They prostituted themselves with the god of ther own religiosity like they had never done with the Baals. Their idolatrous self-righteousness even led them to kill the very Son of God! Whoever wrote that baloney has no idea what the Gospel is about. Someone has never read Stephen's sermon in Acts 7. (Message edited by bskillet on August 27, 2009) | ||
| Pegg Registered user Username: Pegg Post Number: 263 Registered: 2-2006 |
Well, that's my opinion about most of the commentary for the lessons they are using. I really don't like it, but I don't choose it. Our regular leader mostly sticks to examining what the text actually says, looking at word meaning, etc. It's a bit dry to say the least. This is the last of a whole quarter in the first 5 books, and I have to say, I'll be happy to switch to the NT next week. I've always filled in on NT lessons before. This isn't my style, so when I have to fill in I have to start pretty much from scratch. But Brent, what do you think God was promising the COI? Isn't He promising them land and prosperity for continued allegiance? I guess what I'm trying to figure out is that I know they are under the Law in this covenant. For us, the Messiah has come. Is God promising these people and their immediate children nothing right now (but they think He's promising them everything right now with nothing left to the future!). In fact God is making a promise that will be available to the whole world (gentiles!) and is not special to them in their time frame? | ||
| Bskillet Registered user Username: Bskillet Post Number: 557 Registered: 8-2008 |
Yes, Pegg, He was promising that, if they did X, He would give them Y. But He knew the utter impossibility of sinful man doing X, namely keeping the Law. To them, instead, the Law became "a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear" (Acts 15:10). The Law was given to them to show them their sinfulness. The desire, ultimately, was for them to realize that, come to the end of their rope, and rely instead on the merciful grace of God. The blessings did indeed come to them, but only because Jesus took their curse, so that true loyalty to the Covenant--a loyalty that revealed to the Covenanted Jew his sin--would lead him to belief in Jesus Christ. My way of looking at it, Pegg, is this: We as Christians believe the ultimate defining moment of human history was at the Cross of Jesus Christ. Everything must be interpreted through that lense, or we will not know its true meaning. When Jesus came, the Apostles re-interpreted everything in the Old Testament through the lense of Jesus. We should do the same. Did the Law help Israel during the period before Jesus? Yes, at times. Sometimes it kept them from doing the awful sorts of things like child sacrifice that their neighbors were doing. Other times, they plunged head-long into sin, culminating in rampant child sacrifice in the Valley of Hinnom. The fact is, the Law functioned in a sense as a guard for them, to protect them, but its greater function was to demonstrate that they could not truly be righteous by their efforts, and instead would fall into awful things like child sacrifice. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 10302 Registered: 12-2003  |
I agree with Brent, Pegg. I would add that individual Israelites did trust God; the faith of Abraham which Paul explains in Romans 4 was always available to people, before, during, and after the old covenant. In a sense, God did partially fulfill this promise to those who trusted God's promises, such as David, the prophets, etc. But at the same time, the indwelling Holy Spirit who permanently resides in our hearts didn't happen before Pentecost. Those promises were much more fully fulfilled in the new covenant. Prophecies have sequential fulfillments. They have an immediate one, a future one, and generally a far future one as well. I think it's safe to say that there will be an even more complete fulfillment of this prophecy in the millennium when the hardening of Israel (see Romans 11) is over after the full number of Gentiles comes in. Understanding sequential fulfillments really deepens and enlarges the OT! And as Brent says, everything must be interpreted through the lens of Jesus and the cross. Colleen | ||
| Seekinglight Registered user Username: Seekinglight Post Number: 365 Registered: 3-2009 |
Children brought up in Sunday Schools that teach this stuff regularly will likely be rendered spiritually powerless when, as an adult, their caring neighbor shows up on their porch with a loaf of bread & invites them to an SDA prophesy seminar. The rest will be history  | ||
| Seekinglight Registered user Username: Seekinglight Post Number: 366 Registered: 3-2009 |
Oh, if they manage to avoid turning agnostic by that point.... | ||
| Pegg Registered user Username: Pegg Post Number: 268 Registered: 2-2006 |
Thanks Colleen. I have to say, I in no way understand any of the arguments about Israel and the millennium so I'm simply not prepared to go there (and I'm quite sure I won't be by Sunday!). Your comment about sequential fulfillment's is useful though. In contrasting the NC, am I right that we are given NO promises of earthly, tangible blessings such as prosperity? I can't think of any. The only thing I can think of that we are promised in that way is adversity as followers of Christ. In my mind, this is a huge contrast between the Old and the New Covenants. Would anyone be willing to help me flesh out this idea? I agree, Seekinglight. I think the issue you have raised is exceptionally important in Evangelical Christianity today. My best friend at church runs the little children's class. She and I frequently discuss the role of the teacher in introducing the Gift of Grace from the youngest age. This is however a group of adults. All of our lessons this quarter have examined the Old Covenant. While I have been frequently out of class doing things with the children, what I have seen is that glimmers of the NC have been suggested but have not been fleshed out. The whole group, including the leader seems to be laboring to complete the set of lessons. It is my opportunity and privilege to present the summary, the capstone, if you will. I am very appreciative of all of your comments... ...And Please Don't Stop Now! Pegg | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2972 Registered: 10-2004  |
Pegg, you asked:
The only thing that comes to mind, as far as earthly blessings, is Ephesians 6:1-3 which Paul adapts and modifies from the OC:
Wow, I actually had a hard time just finding a translation that didn't actually put quotation marks around verse 3! The translators don't seem to understand that Paul is not just "quoting" the commandment but that he is changing it and adapting it for the New Covenant. Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on August 28, 2009) | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 10310 Registered: 12-2003 |
Interesting, Jeremy—you're right about what Paul is doing! Mark 10:30 does include this comment about those who give up father, mother, houses, lands for the sake of the gospel: but that he will receive a hundred times as much now in the present age, houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and farms, along with persecutions; and in the age to come, eternal life. I'm currently understanding this to mean not necessarily literal wealth, but that God provides deeply for us in the new family He gives us in His body; He provides what we need (Matthew 6:31-33); He sustains us according to His will and His plan. So yes, much of this "100 times" provision is directly related to being born again and united to Jesus by the Holy Spirit—and thus to each other. I've seen that God provides what we need; never an abundance, and seemingly never in advance—but He does provide, both materially and emotionally and relationally. He makes it possible for us to live in this physical world and to do the work He asks us to do even against all odds. So yes—there is a sense in which earthly blessings are part of the new covenant—but not the way we usually think of prosperity. And suffering and loss are often concurrent with this blessing. Does that make any sense? And whatever the reality is re: the millennium, for sure the righteous will inherit the earth, and we are hands-down promised a new heaven and a new earth. So there is at least one future fulfillment still to come! Colleen | ||
| Pegg Registered user Username: Pegg Post Number: 271 Registered: 2-2006 |
He says, "Your bread and water will be sure," too, doesn't He? Again, this is nothing like the flowing promises of prosperity in the OC. Thank You Very, Very Much. Pegg | ||
| Pegg Registered user Username: Pegg Post Number: 272 Registered: 2-2006 |
Your thoughts along with reading the beginning of the book Deuteronomy are really helping me to formulate my thoughts. I can't thank you enough. While I have had very few responses to a similar thread that I posted on CARM, I wanted to re-post dialog that I had with an SDA pastor's wife there whose moniker is willowbird. The conversation started with another poster saying this: Certainly, God treated the children of Israel with love.Below willowbird speaks in response to this post and I respond to her comments. "If Ye Harken Not Unto His Word"You-All!Me: I'll tell you the way I see it, Willowbird!willowbird: The Bible is packed with evidence to the contrary. [That is the contrary of what NC has said - see above.]Me: Yes He has!willowbird: God has always been love, has always desired loving intimacy with His people, and has always measured His followers by what is going on in their hearts,Me:Would an Israelite who never offered a sin offering be forgiven, Willowbird? Could a Gentile who was not circumcised enter into the privileges of God's people? We are told that such a fellow would not even be allowed to keep the Sabbath! Do you think he would enjoy forgivness if he built an alter and made a sin offering?willowbird: not just behavior Your comments are a great blessing to me. Please continue to offer your insights. I Am Beginning I Have A Thrilling Lesson To Present! Pegg | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2973 Registered: 10-2004 |
Pegg, Actually, the "bread and water will be sure" is an EGW quote. It is, however, taken from Isaiah 33:16 KJV, I believe:
Jeremy | ||
| Pegg Registered user Username: Pegg Post Number: 274 Registered: 2-2006 |
Oh My!!!!! Thanks For Preventing My Further Embarrassment! | ||
| Pegg Registered user Username: Pegg Post Number: 280 Registered: 2-2006 |
Jeremy - Could you flesh this out a little more for me, please? Thanks! Pegg | ||
| Pegg Registered user Username: Pegg Post Number: 284 Registered: 2-2006 |
My thanks to everyone for your thoughts and help. I believe the Lord spoke through this lesson in Sunday School this morning. I wanted to share my teaching notes with you. - I Can't Thank You Enough. You Are An important Part Of My Family of God! Pegg Deciding To Follow In our lesson today, Moses is conveying God’s words to the Children of Israel on the plains of Moab. After wandering around in the wilderness for 40 years, God has said that they are now ready to go in and possess the land He has promised them. A review of Deuteronomy 1-4 sets the stage for this story. Israel has been at this point before... You all remember the story. The first time God told them to go in and take the land of Canaan they responded by sending spies to check it out. The spies were tasked with scouting out the best route of entry. When they returned, all but 2 of them brought a horrific story of formidable giants and walled cities. Deuteronomy 1:26-28 They said, “Where can we go?” And God said, “I’ll tell you where you can go! Because you didn’t obey me, you can wander around in the wilderness until every adult, except 2 believers, dies off; then your children can go in and possess the land.” Today people ask, “Did God do this because He is cruel and vindictive?” Deuteronomy tells us the answer is “No!” God had a covenant with these people. Deuteronomy 5:1-4 Today, we don’t understand covenant’s very well. A contract is the most similar thing we have. The covenant of ancient times was even more binding than a contract. It was usually made by a conquering ruler to be installed on his vassels. This was NOT a negotiated contract. •These documents began by laying out the authority of the ruler. His relationship to the vassel nation was established. God had made this kind of covenant with Israel at Mount Sinai. They had agreed to keep it perfectly, but they broke it in not obeying Him. Their wandering wasn’t God’s vindictivness. It was the result of breaking the covenant. Now these people have all died off. It is their children to whom God is now ready to give the Promised Land. In the book of Deuteronomy, God, through Moses, is reviewing the covenant with this new generation. He wants them to re-commit themselves to it, and He wants no misunderstanding. In the passages leading up to today’s lesson, Moses has reviewed God’s authority as their Ruler. He has reminded them of the great mercies that were shown to themselves and their parents as they wandered, even in spite of their having broken the covenant. Next the rules of the covenant have been pointed out. Deuteronomy 4:12-13 The promised blessings have been listed and the curses that will ensue for not keeping the covenant have been enumerated in rather graphic detail. A covenant is a serious matter. Listen to what God says about the curses. Deuteronomy 29:19-28 This brings us to our lesson passage for today. How do you think these people are feeling about now? How are YOU feeling? So let me read you today’s passage. Deuteronomy 30:1-10 Notice that the tone of these verses is a little different from the others. It is more hopeful, don’t you think? Next Moses reminds them of what will happen should they turn away from God again. Then he says: Deuteronomy 30:19 “Today I have given you the choice between life and death, between blessings and curses. Now I call on heaven and earth to witness the choice you make. What do you think the people are thinking? Imagine God said all this to you. What would YOU say? Well, they said the same thing! “We’ll do it!” But we know they didn’t. Just a little while later, in the book of Joshua we see him going over all of this again, and here is what it says: Joshua 24:16-21 The people replied, “We would never abandon the LORD and serve other gods. For the LORD our God is the one who rescued us and our ancestors from slavery in the land of Egypt. He performed mighty miracles before our very eyes. As we traveled through the wilderness among our enemies, he preserved us. It was the LORD who drove out the Amorites and the other nations living here in the land. So we, too, will serve the LORD, for he alone is our God.” This is the way the Old Covenant was. God, through Joshua says, “I know you can’t do this.” He knew all along that his people wouldn’t be able to live under the stipulations of the Old Covenant. He knew that if they were the only guarantee they had they were already doomed. This is the reason God looked ahead in His plan and made arrangements for a New and Better Covenant. We have a glimpse of it already here. Deuteronomy 30:3-6 He will have mercy on you and gather you back from all the nations where he has scattered you. Even though you are banished to the ends of the earth, the LORD your God will gather you from there and bring you back again. The LORD your God will return you to the land that belonged to your ancestors, and you will possess that land again. Then he will make you even more prosperous and numerous than your ancestors! “The LORD your God will change your heart and the hearts of all your descendants, so that you will love him with all your heart and soul and so you may live! God says, “I’ll save you and then I’ll fix you!” Through the sacrificial system that was part of the Old Covenant, God pointed His people who would believe forward to a time when One would come Who would bear their sinfulness before God so that His blessings could fully fall upon them. In this way, the sacrificial system was the Old Covenant’s escape clause into the New Covenant. Jeremiah and Ezekiel both reassured Gods people about it. Jeremiah 31:31-34 “The day is coming,” says the LORD, “when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and Judah. This covenant will not be like the one I made with their ancestors when I took them by the hand and brought them out of the land of Egypt. They broke that covenant, though I loved them as a husband loves his wife,” says the LORD. Ezekiel 36:25-26 Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean. Your filth will be washed away, and you will no longer worship idols. And I will give you a new heart, and I will put a new spirit in you. I will take out your stony, stubborn heart and give you a tender, responsive heart. Which brings us to the book of Hebrews. The author of Hebrews says the new Covenant is Better. Hebrews 8:6 But now Jesus, our High Priest, has been given a ministry that is far superior to the old priesthood, for he is the one who mediates for us a far better covenant with God, based on better promises. What makes The New Covenant that we celebrate as part of the Lord’s Supper each week better? The writer of Hebrews tells us that, too. Hebrews 7:21-22 For God said to him, “The LORD has taken an oath and will not break his vow: ‘You are a priest forever.’ Because of this oath, Jesus is the one who guarantees this better covenant with God. The New Covenant is not guaranteed by God’s people saying, “All that the Lord has said, we will do.” Rather, Jesus Christ Himself is the Guarantor of the New Covenant that God has made with us. How does THAT make you feel? (timed writing exercise followed by discussion) | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 7404 Registered: 3-2004  |
Thank you for posting this. I would have liked to be in your class today. I learned so much just reading it. The one quote that stuck to me is the one from Deut 30 ..."the Lord your God will change your heart and the hearts of all your descendants, so that you will love Him with all you heart and soul and so you may live." The new Covenant is to love God with all your heart soul and mind and to love our neighbors as ourselves. Diana L | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2979 Registered: 10-2004 |
Well, first let's compare the passage in Ephesians 6 with what the Decalogue says:
First of all, Paul is not just quoting an OC command as authoritative for Christians because we are under the Law, but rather he is transferring it to the NC. Also, there are some differences in the wording--he is actually changing the command and adapting it for the New Covenant, by making it universal for all believers instead of only applying to Israel within the OC context. First, notice that instead of saying "on the land which the LORD your God gives you" (an OC promise to Israel only, referring to the Promised Land), he changes it to "on the earth" (universally applicable to all believers). He also leaves out the part from Deuteronomy 5 which says "as the LORD your God has commanded you." Also, I'm not sure of the significance of this, but he also switches the order for the parts about living long and it going well with you. He also adds a comment after stating the first part of the command. So he's not really "quoting" the commandment, as much as he is changing it, transferring it, and commanding it himself as part of the NC. Does this help clear up where I'm coming from on this? Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on August 30, 2009) | ||
| Pegg Registered user Username: Pegg Post Number: 287 Registered: 2-2006 |
Okay. Yes, that helps at least in that it gives me a direction in which to think. Studying for this lesson has made me realize that my SDA mind spiritualized EVERYTHING in the OC. It doesn't matter if the promise was for land or cattle or children, I interpreted every promised blessing as a promise of spiritual plenty, salvation and a far off hope of Heaven and Homeland in the New Earth. I tended to interpret the curses in a similar fashion, but with the cravat that they obviously applied to the present as well, as evidenced by the COI experience. Basically, then, I have come to realize that I was taught to interpret the OC as if it all applied primarily to the Church, making the COI effectually non-existent. Accordingly, with the 5th commandment, I was taught that it meant that people who don't respect their parents (expanded to include teachers, pastors etc.) won't be saved. It only recently dawned on me that a kid who didn't obey his parents would undoubtedly risk injury or death frequently. When I saw Paul appearing to repeat the commandment I had no reason to question his meaning. Once I realized from Romans 4 that this quid pro quo was not God's way in the New Covenant, I simply closed the door on requirements other than belief. This is clearly the way Paul describes it. Everything other than belief is wages. We're either credited with righteousness or we're not. There's not some stage in between where you're partly credited and partly work. If works are required then it's not credit. Without a question, this wipes out every requirement of the OC, including all of the 10 Commandments. Once I got the picture of imputed righteousness that Paul described, the Sabbath as a requirement was just not an question for me. Neither was murder, lying, adultery, or disrespect for parents. It was all the same. If any were required for salvation, then it's wages. The question I wanted to know next was, "What does appropriate behavior for an adopted child of God look like." This is well described in the NT. What Paul is saying here seems to fit into that category. He is giving advice (to newly converted Gentiles) about how a Christian family should act towards each other. This blows the SDA theory that because this commandment is referenced in the writings of the NC, all of the 10 are somehow still applicable. Thanks For Giving Me Reason To Think It Out. Pegg | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2980 Registered: 10-2004 |
Also, the SDAs claim that when Paul says, "which is the first commandment with a promise," that he is referring to the Ten Commandments (which is actually the "Ten Words" in the original Hebrew). But actually, there are no other commandments in the Decalogue that have a promise--so he is not referring to the Ten, but rather to the entire Law of Moses, and is saying that this is the first commandment (out of the entire Law of Moses) with a promise. So you're right, he's defnitely not making the Ten C's binding on Christians, as the SDAs claim, or else he would have to be making the entire Law of Moses (all 613 commandments) binding! Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on August 30, 2009) | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 492 Registered: 3-2009 |
Jeremy, Could you post the second, third, etc. commandments with a promise? Hec | ||
| Pegg Registered user Username: Pegg Post Number: 293 Registered: 2-2006 |
Jeremy, I'm interested in this line of commandments with a promise. It is SO hard to get them to let go of that TEN(!!!) commandments stuff. Pegg | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2984 Registered: 10-2004 |
I actually did not know this myself, but had to look it up, although I was pretty sure there were other commandments in the Law with a promise (especially since Paul says that is the "first" one). Of course, there are many general statements about blessings coming upon them if they keep God's commandments (such as the beginning of Deuteronomy 30, which was posted to start this thread). But as for specifc commandments with a promise, here are some that I found:
Now these are only the ones that mention "bless"/"blessing"--there may be other commandments with promises also. So I still don't know for sure what the second or third commandments with a promise are. Also, Exodus 20:24 might be considered a commandment with a promise:
Jeremy | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 10320 Registered: 12-2003 |
So interesting. thank you, Jeremy! Colleen | ||
| Pegg Registered user Username: Pegg Post Number: 302 Registered: 2-2006 |
Thanks a bunch, Jeremy! That really helps. Pegg | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 500 Registered: 3-2009 |
Thanks, Jeremy. Hec |
