| Author |
Message |
Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 2978
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, August 29, 2009 - 10:40 pm: |     |
Hmmm, interesting article!
Jeremy |
Elaine
Registered user
Username: Elaine
Post Number: 4
Registered: 8-2009
| | Posted on Sunday, August 30, 2009 - 12:48 pm: | |
There are two "Flood" stories intertwined in Gen 6:5-8:22.
Gen. 6:19: "And of all the living, of all flesh, you shall bring two to the ark to keep alive with you, they shall be male and female. 20: Two of each will come to you to keep alive.
Gen. 7:2: "Of all the clean beasts, take yourselves seven pairs, man and his woman; and of the beasts which are not clean, two, man and his woman.
vs. 8: Of the clean beasts and of the beasts which were not clean, and of the birds and of all those which creep upon the earth, two of each came to Noah to the ark, male and female as God had commanded Noah.
v. 15: And they came to Noah to the ark, two of each, of all flesh in which is the breath of life."
See Richard Elliott Friedman's "Who Wrote the Bible" to see that there clearly are two different stories, both conflated. One is the Priestly version which has one pair of unclean animals while the "J" or Yahwhist version has seven pairs of clean animals and one pair of unclean animals.
"The two flood stories are separable and complete. Each has its own language, its own details, and even its own conception of God."
A careful reading of the entire story will clearly illustrate the conflation of two separate stories.
There are other stories in the Bible that are disparate: the Creation story in Gen. 1 is clearly unlike the one in Gen. 2. |
Asurprise
Registered user
Username: Asurprise
Post Number: 1015
Registered: 7-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, August 30, 2009 - 3:29 pm: | |
I looked Friedman up on the internet and found a critique of "Who Wrote the Bible?" by Rabbi Dovid Gottlieb. I didn't read his argument real thoroughly, but it looks like Friedman leaves much to be desired in his research.
(Just that title "Who Wrote the Bible?" sounds like a work of someone who doesn't know much about God and/or doesn't know God at all :-/ )
God entrusted the oracles of God to the Jews, so the Jewish people would be the ones to ask - not agnostic/atheist Jews or Gentiles of course! Plus, all scripture came about by inspiration of God, so really, God wrote it all!!! |
Elaine
Registered user
Username: Elaine
Post Number: 6
Registered: 8-2009
| | Posted on Sunday, August 30, 2009 - 4:36 pm: | |
If God "wrote it all" he surely contradicted in many places.
Were there 2 of each animal or 2 of unclean and 7 of clean--when both are mentioned.
Did God create light on the first or the fourth day of Creation.
Did he create Adam before all the plants or after all the rest of creation.
NU 11:33 God inflicts sickness.
JB 2:7 Satan inflicts sickness.
2SA 24:1 The Lord inspired David to take the census.
1CH 21:1 Satan inspired the census
2KI 4:32-37 A dead child is raised (well before the time of Jesus).
MT 9:18-25, JN 11:38-44 Two dead persons are raised (by Jesus himself).
AC 26:23 Jesus was the first to rise from the dead.
2CH 19:7, AC 10:34, RO 2:11 There is no injustice or partiality with the Lord.
RO 9:15-18 God has mercy on (and hardens the hearts of) whom he pleases
MT 1:17 There were twenty-eight generations from David to Jesus.
LK 3:23-38 There were forty-three.
MT 1:18-21 The Annunciation occurred after Mary had conceived Jesus.
LK 1:26-31 It occurred before conception.
MT 1:20 The angel spoke to Joseph.
LK 1:28 The angel spoke to Mary.
Those contradictions are only a small account.
Humans err. |
Elaine
Registered user
Username: Elaine
Post Number: 7
Registered: 8-2009
| | Posted on Sunday, August 30, 2009 - 4:44 pm: | |
Personally, I never rely on one individual's assessment. At Amazon, there are multiple reviews and much more insightful and informative than one mere individual. |
Asurprise
Registered user
Username: Asurprise
Post Number: 1018
Registered: 7-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, August 30, 2009 - 5:16 pm: | |
A better question is Who is Jesus? Everything stands or falls on Jesus. All those sacrifices in the Old Testament pointed to Jesus. All the prophecies, such as Isaiah 53, Micah 5:2 and the one in Daniel 9:26 where it says that Messiah would come BEFORE the temple was destroyed, which was destroyed in 70 AD, point to Jesus.
Then there are the events of the New Testament. All of the disciples who walked with Jesus, (except for John) died martyrs deaths. A person will die for what he believes to be true, but he won't die for what he knows to be a lie. They died, testifying to Jesus' miracles, His resurrection and His ascension. They are eyewitnesses to Jesus and His miracles; which would make their testimonies admissible in a court of law.
There are those (such as a nephew of mine to whom I wrote recently) who believe that Jesus was a good man. Jesus, though, claimed to be God; so either He is a liar, a lunatic or He really is Lord.
Elaine; Who do you say Jesus is? |
Elaine
Registered user
Username: Elaine
Post Number: 8
Registered: 8-2009
| | Posted on Sunday, August 30, 2009 - 5:49 pm: | |
We can only know any thing about Jesus from the writers of the NT, and none of them were eye-witnesses, but reported what they had heard. No secular historian ever saw or talked with him.
The NT is our only source.
As to the OT prophecies, they were all re-interpreted to suit the conditions the NT writers as they wrote. The earliest writer, Paul, never saw or heard him and knew nothing about a virgin birth--if it had been important either he was never told about it nor felt it significant. Mark, the first gospel writer, begins his story at Jesus' baptism, and Matthew and Luke had conflicting genealogies and stories, so who you gonna believe.
He is whatever people want him to be. |
Pegg
Registered user
Username: Pegg
Post Number: 290
Registered: 2-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, August 30, 2009 - 5:50 pm: | |
Elaine!
If you have ever been SDA, I can fully understand finding these seeming contradictions in the Bible perplexing.
For all their braggadocio about being a "People of the Book", SDAs are clearly taught now-a-days that the Bible doesn't have to mean what it says, the Bible is full of errors, and inspired doesn't mean the same thing as trustworthy. This is done (either deliberately or not, depending on the individual) so that the threshold for inspiration can be lowered enough to include their prophet.
Only a few weeks ago I was conversing with an SDA pastor who was just about frantic because his teenage son was questioning the creation story and the existence of God on scientific grounds. I wanted to respond, "This is what happens when you begin to deny the trustworthiness of inspiration."
Again, you are welcome here. We may not jump on the bandwagon, but please don't leave. When you are ready you can tell us a bit about your story so that we can understand your perspective better.
Best Blessings of the Journey!
Pegg
(Message edited by pegg on August 30, 2009) |
Asurprise
Registered user
Username: Asurprise
Post Number: 1019
Registered: 7-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, August 30, 2009 - 6:12 pm: | |
Elaine; check out those genealogies. One is Mary's. Notice how Luke 3:23 is phrased: "Now Jesus Himself began His ministry at about thirty years of age, being (AS WAS SUPPOSED) the son of Joseph, the son of Heli. Heli was Mary's father. Matthew 1:16 says that Joseph's father was Jacob.
(A friend of mine told me that her atheist brother gave her the exact same list of "contradictions"!)
And BOTH Joseph and Mary were talked to by angels about different things at different times. In Matthew 1:20 Joseph is being told to not be afraid to take Mary, who was pregnant, to be his wife. In Luke an angel told Mary she was going to have a special Child. I don't see any contradiction. Also an angel told Joseph to flee to Egypt. And an angel (later) told Joseph to come back. |
Asurprise
Registered user
Username: Asurprise
Post Number: 1020
Registered: 7-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, August 30, 2009 - 6:21 pm: | |
Also those people who were "raised from the dead" were only raised to mortal life -- a resuscitation. Jesus was raised to immortal, eternal life. And if He hadn't been, no one else would be able to be raised to eternal life, either.
I've heard of people "throwing out the baby with the bathwater" so to speak, when they find they've been in a cult. Please don't do that. IF you sincerely ask God to reveal Himself and the truth to you, He will, believe me! |
Pegg
Registered user
Username: Pegg
Post Number: 294
Registered: 2-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, August 30, 2009 - 7:16 pm: | |
Besides, Jesus is undoubtedly the only one who raised Himself!
Also, Gospel writers Matthew, Mark and John are eyewitnesses (unless one believes some outrageous story about impostors). Paul states that he saw Jesus personally and in vision. He denies that he received his teaching from anyone else. (Paul was writing theology, not the Christ-story. Why would you expect him to mention the virgin birth?)
I could go on about some of the issues I noted with the information you listed. You need to check out your source. This is a very good place to do it.
I'm Glad You Came
Pegg |
Elaine
Registered user
Username: Elaine
Post Number: 9
Registered: 8-2009
| | Posted on Sunday, August 30, 2009 - 8:36 pm: | |
Were Moses and Elijah raised to mortal life. Why did they appear on the Mt. of Transfiguration.
What happened to old Enoch.
Please furnish your sources for claiming that the three gospel writers were eyewitnesses--they do not make those claims for themselves.
Paul saw Jesus on the road to Damascus (reported differently by Paul and Luke) and his message was Christ and him crucified, so he was probably not interested in a virgin birth, or perhaps that story had not yet developed--the gospels were written toward the end of the first century.
Virgin births were claimed for many of the Caesars and they were said to have been impregnated by a god with a virgin. Perhaps the Gospel writers wanted to show their god was equal to the others.
FYI, I have dozens of books which I have read on this subject and my master's thesis was on early Christianity--the first four centuries. This has been researched ad infinitum. Every person has to do his own research and not rely on others. |
Hec
Registered user
Username: Hec
Post Number: 499
Registered: 3-2009
| | Posted on Sunday, August 30, 2009 - 8:53 pm: | |
River where are you?
Hec |
Dennis
Registered user
Username: Dennis
Post Number: 1788
Registered: 4-2000
| | Posted on Sunday, August 30, 2009 - 9:24 pm: | |
All the sacrifices, including those before the Mosaic Covenant, pointed to Jesus, the Lamb of God. It would be most inconceivable and unthinkable that pigs, dogs, monkeys, porcupines, or other unclean animals were sacrificed by Abel and others as shadows pointing to the Cross. The Old Covenant was the first time that specific lists were actually written down as seen in the Pentateuch.
However, these clean/unclean distinctions obviously existed beforehand as an oral tradition from the very beginning. The promise of a Savior is recorded very early in the Bible (Gen. 3:15). Thus, sacrifices were made beginning with the children of Adam and Eve. Clearly, God directed all those sacrifices with exactness. God's sovereign acceptance of one sacrifice over another was the root of the first murder scene. Indeed, our great God is very particular and choosey. After all, salvation is from the Lord (Jonah 2:9). It's all about Him!
Dennis Fischer |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 10315
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, August 30, 2009 - 9:27 pm: | |
Elaine, the premise of this forum is that the Bible is the inerrant word of God in the original manuscripts. When one takes it as completely reliable, it fits together and explains itself. When one assumes the apparent contradictions are actually arising from sources that disagree, there's no way for the data to make sense.
We are not here to debate the reliability of Scripture; we are here because the word of God has changed our lives by introducing us to the Lord Jesus who is the eternal Son of God, the second person of the Trinity. Because God is the Creator and author of salvation, the burden of proof is on Him to reveal Himself.
As long as we are critiquing what His word claims for itself, we can never accept it on its own terms and allow it to reveal its message. We have to be willing to let it do what it says it will do.
Reality is greater than we can see. There is spiritual reality, and we cannot understand it without spiritual insight. Our time-bound, cognitive analysis cannot summarize or even comprehend spiritual reality. "Flesh give birth to flesh; Sprit gives birth to spirit."
To those who have believed—not merely cognitively assented but believed and surrendered their lives to the Lord Jesus—1 Corinthians 2:12-13 makes complete sense: Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God, which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words.
We are not here to debate the authenticity and reliability of the Bible. We are assuming its reliability because unless we put it to the test on its own terms, we will never know if it's telling the truth. Most of us have experienced its reliability.
Elaine, the God of the gospel is the Lord Jesus who literally changes lives and gives eternal life—and that life and that transformation begin NOW—while we're still in our mortal flesh.
We not going down the road of debating whether or not the Bible is God's word or men's words. We are not entertaining the notion that Jesus is not the Lord Jesus, the eternal Son of the Father who died, rose, and ascended to God, then sent the Holy Spirit.
I cannot prove the literal reality of the new birth scientifically any more than I can prove my live for Richard is literal. But the new birth produces change that is impossible for a human to achieve. The burden of proof is on God, not us. We have to be willing to submit our minds to His word and allow Him to reveal Himself to us on His terms.
He is, after all the Creator, our Sovereign Lord. As Job said,''Therefore I have declared that which I did not understand, Things too wonderful for me, which I did not know…Therefore I retract, And I repent in dust and ashes" (Job 42:3b & 6).
Colleen |
Jeremiah
Registered user
Username: Jeremiah
Post Number: 438
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Monday, August 31, 2009 - 7:32 am: | |
I think that when a person experiences the reality of God for themselves, they then have something by which to explain history and the Bible. What can happen is you can discover that these contradictions are merely different human expressions of a common experience. Only by having that common experience for yourself will you start to understand the history you read. Until you experience God, you'll think He doesn't exist, and even after you know God you'll easily forget, maybe. But I believe the writers of the Bible are speaking of something that is available also to us.
Jeremiah |
Bskillet
Registered user
Username: Bskillet
Post Number: 572
Registered: 8-2008
| | Posted on Monday, August 31, 2009 - 3:49 pm: | |
quote:Virgin births were claimed for many of the Caesars and they were said to have been impregnated by a god with a virgin. Perhaps the Gospel writers wanted to show their god was equal to the others.
Then the virgin birth would have been included in the Gospels of Mark and John, written to pagan Greco-Roman audiences, instead of the Gospel of Matthew, written to a Jewish audience. For a Jewish audience, the virgin birth claim would have seemed shameful, which is all the more reason to suppose its truth. It takes a powerful honesty to divulge something when doing so would engender animosity on the part of the audience.
(Message edited by bskillet on August 31, 2009) |
Asurprise
Registered user
Username: Asurprise
Post Number: 1024
Registered: 7-2007
| | Posted on Monday, August 31, 2009 - 5:49 pm: | |
Elaine; I have a challenge for you. Ask the Lord to reveal Himself to you. If you really mean it, He will.
Now in Adventism, we were all just taught to have "faith" which seemed to be just an abstract concept, along with "empowerment to overcome," "living a victorious life," etc. The trouble is; in Adventism, it IS ONLY an abstract concept. Am I right in assuming you are a former Adventist? If so, then you've likely had the frustration of going through the motions of only play-acting the part of a Christian, because there ISN'T any power or love or any real Person behind the religion.
When I was an Adventist, I didn't have too much in the way of causing me discouragement, except that I didn't notice any improvement in my life. Things just pretty much stayed the same, but I'm naturally a happy-go-lucky type person, so I didn't worry about it too much and nothing caused me cognitive dissonance until God took hold of my life. The devil pretty much left me alone until I became a Christian. I was lost, though I didn't know it, so certainly he didn't want to "rock the boat!"
Things in the Bible like a "relationship with God", and "the comfort and Presence of the Holy Spirit" were concepts I agreed with while I was an Adventist; but to me they were "spiritual" concepts to be taken by faith.
I had NO IDEA that when a person is a real Christian, (by "Christian," I mean someone who REALLY HAS accepted Jesus' sacrifice; not someone who "hopes to be saved," or who thinks they "WILL be saved" if they "overcome," or who thinks they will if they "don't keep on sinning," etc.), they actually HAVE a FELLOWSHIP with God Himself!
A Christian actually HAS the fellowship of the Spirit with them. It's hard to explain. For me, I didn't actually sense the Presence of God until after I asked for the Holy Spirit. That didn't happen until several months after I was saved. The only reason I asked for the Holy Spirit, was because I thought God might want me too and I did so reluctantly because of Adventist "baggage" regarding "speaking in tongues" etc. I had no idea what to expect. I never did (yet) speak in tongues, but shortly after I asked that (maybe a couple days or so), I sensed His love and His Presence.
Yes, His Presence. I didn't know what to expect, so I didn't just imagine it or anything.
Let me give an example. Let's say you're standing in line at the Post Office and you're talking to someone in front of you. Then suddenly you "feel" the presence of someone standing behind you. You turn and sure enough, another customer is standing behind you. It's something like that, only you just know you're sensing God.
Now I know you would never believe me, so you'll have to ask Him yourself. Not flippantly though --- you'll have to ask Him sincerely to reveal truth and Himself to you. And I'd like to extend that invitation to any Adventists who are reading this. Please ask the Lord to reveal the truth to you. |
Asurprise
Registered user
Username: Asurprise
Post Number: 1025
Registered: 7-2007
| | Posted on Monday, August 31, 2009 - 7:06 pm: | |
...also Elaine; you will find that YOU won't be "doing" the fruits/works anymore either. That's the Holy Spirit's job. We're not saved by the works that He does in us either. Notice what the apostle Paul said to believers: "...having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, Who is the guarantee of our inheritance..." Ephesians 1:13,14. |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 5414
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 01, 2009 - 1:37 am: | |
Elaine,
You stated:We can only know any thing about Jesus from the writers of the NT, and none of them were eye-witnesses, but reported what they had heard. No secular historian ever saw or talked with him.
The NT is our only source. (end quote)
You are a liar, we have the Holy Spirit who confirms Gods word in our heart.
You obviously do not have the Holy Spirit, you lie because your father, the devil, has put into you a cold heart of unbelief, but if you do not change and seek God with a repentant heart, you will be lost as you are now in a lost condition.
I won't debate with you or try to convince you of the validity of the Bible, either with you or the devil. I already know your future as of now.
I don't debate with evil spirits in people.
Most sinners are just that, sinners, and they go ahead and live a life of sin, but some try to appear among Christians with an evil and cold heart of unbelief to try and defeat the work of God, you are one of those, wells without water and clouds without rain, having no hope nor contentment, you try to destroy the faith of others.
In your pride you lift yourself up, but you will be brought low.
I urge you to repentance.
River |
Asurprise
Registered user
Username: Asurprise
Post Number: 1027
Registered: 7-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 01, 2009 - 10:33 am: | |
Elaine; you asked for my sources that the writers of the gospel were eyewitnesses - both Matthew and John were diciples who walked and talked with Jesus; so they were obviously eyewitnesses.
Now as to whether there were eyewitnesses other than the NT writers; here's a link to a "Jews for Jesus" site. http://www.jewsforjesus.org/publications/issues/5_5/noevidence
But, really; all a person needs is the evidence provided by the Bible writers themselves. They died for what they believed (except for John). No one will die for what they know to be a lie, and all these people knew whether it was true or not.
Remember, ask the Lord to show you the truth and reveal Himself to you. If you really are serious - don't play around with Him; He knows your heart - He WILL show you. |
Grace_alone
Registered user
Username: Grace_alone
Post Number: 1561
Registered: 6-2006
| | Posted on Friday, September 04, 2009 - 8:59 am: | |
Now where did Elaine go? |
Seekinglight
Registered user
Username: Seekinglight
Post Number: 392
Registered: 3-2009
| | Posted on Friday, September 04, 2009 - 10:03 am: | |
Hmmm...I can't imagine where she might be.... |
Animal
Registered user
Username: Animal
Post Number: 668
Registered: 7-2008
| | Posted on Friday, September 04, 2009 - 12:25 pm: | |
Now ladies..be nice...LOL LOL |
Grace_alone
Registered user
Username: Grace_alone
Post Number: 1567
Registered: 6-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 08, 2009 - 5:48 pm: | |
Hit and run, I guess... |
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