| Author |
Message |
Denisegilmore
| | Posted on Saturday, January 27, 2001 - 1:35 am: |     |
Hello Patti,
I'm am now glad that I was bumped off line earlier today. My post to you was one that had this backwards.
I thank you for the clarity of these words and how or what they mean.
This was confirmed earlier this evening at FAF meeting too. So again, I thank you for this clarity on this matter.
May God Bless you always,
your sister in Christ Jesus, our Lord God and Savior,
DtB |
Denisegilmore
| | Posted on Saturday, January 27, 2001 - 1:47 am: | |
Dear Patti,
We have ONE wonderful God, don't we?!!!
He loves us soooo much that it's unbelievable at times.
I know that the more I understand how much He does love us and how He died just for us, sinful humans, the more I want to show this love to others.
Because this news is such GREAT NEWS, it puts joy in my heart (remember the song 'I've got this joy, joy, joy, joy, down in my heart, down in my heart, down in my heart. I've got this joy, joy, joy, joy, down in my heart. Down in my heart to stay!) :)
That's the feeling I've got and with this feeling, I find myself showing it to others. Not as a conscience act necessarily, but just because it's in me. Does that make sense to you?
It's a joy unspeakable for sure.
I believe that those that live around me know something is up cause they are asking questions about God! Isn't this great?! To me it is wonderful to see God at work like this.
The Glorious Gospel gives me such a hope, that I just want everyone I know, to know this same hope. This is a hope that gives joy, no matter what tribulations we might have or what troubles we see.
God is good.
May the Lord shine His face upon you Patti, my sister in Christ Jesus!
your sister, DtB |
Denisegilmore
| | Posted on Saturday, January 27, 2001 - 2:06 am: | |
Patti again,
Still as some already know and that you might know too, I must search out, to the ends, the meaning of those words, imparted and imputed.
It is now a curiosity how these words came into the picture at all. Where did people get these words and place them as Biblical ideas or concepts? Do you know? I sure don't but am going to try to find out.
Pray that I find some resolution inside my mind as to the origin of these words, in a Biblical sense, to ease this wandering mind of mine.
God Bless you always,
DtB |
Patti
| | Posted on Saturday, January 27, 2001 - 8:35 am: | |
Hello, Denise!
I truly share in your rejoicing!
The Glorious Gospel gives me such a hope, that I just want everyone I know, to know this same hope.
So very, very true. And the Gospel is the only thing that brings such hope.
You asked:
It is now a curiosity how these words came into the picture at all. Where did people get these words and place them as Biblical ideas or concepts? Do you know? I sure don't but am going to try to find out.
I am not certain who originated the use of the English words "imparted" and "imputed." It was unfortunate, IMO, because the words are so similar.
The "concept" of "imputed" righteousness is clearly outlined in Romans. (The book of Romans contains the clearest exposition of the Gospel.) In Romans 4 and 5 especially, we are told that Abraham was saved because he believed God's promise, and God "credited" it to Him as righteousness. This is "imputation." It is attributing to one the characteristics of Another. This "obedience of the One" is the righteousness that we can claim in the judgment; the righteousness of Jesus Christ alone. It is perfect, it is finished, it is totally sufficient for our eternal inheritance. It is, in short, the Gospel.
"Imparted" righteousness is what happens IN the believer. It is not "credited" to us; it actually occurs IN US.
Somewhere along the line, I suppose it began as early as in ancient Galatia, people got the notion that the work of the Holy Spirit IN US was just as important as the work of Christ FOR US, and, thus, heresy was born. The heresy of relegating our justification for the sake of the doing and dying of Jesus Christ to "mere" salvation--how that expression grates on my nerves!!--and then looking into oneself for some further or "greater" personal blessing than being saved once-for-all by the work of Jesus Christ FOR US.
Believe it or not, Denise, there are many professed Christians, SDA, RC, mainstream, etc., who believe that the work of Jesus Christ is merely the beginning of salvation; that His work of saving us is not complete unless we complete the work by experiencing a change of heart, change of life. But you see, that very word, "experience," denies faith, because faith is believing in things that you cannot physically discern. And anything that is not of faith, is sin.
This heresy, that Christ's work was merely the initiation of salvation and not full salvation in and of itself, is the root of all believer-centric religion. The focus is not upon the merits of the Holy Lamb of God, but upon the "heart," "character," "feelings," "mind," of the believer. It is a simple physical law: If we are focused upon ourselves, we are not focused upon Jesus Christ.
Yes, the Holy Spirit works in us, but He [b]never[/b]testifies of Himself. Do you understand the implications of that remark? The Holy Spirit will not lead us to testify of [b]His work in us,[/b]. NEVER. His testimony is of Jesus, our dead, risen and exalted Savior. And He inspires us to testify of Him also.
So, you see, "imparted" righteousness, any "good" that we experience in our human flesh is permeated with sin, because WE are permeated with sin. Therefore, our only hope is the "imputed" merits, the righteousness we access by faith alone, nothing less than the perfect life and death of our Lord Jesus Christ. This is the Gospel. ALONE.
I am immensely enjoying our discussions!
Thank you for your time.
Grace and peace always,
Patti
PS You are curious about the development of the terms "imputed" and "imparted." I have my own curiosity about where it came into the ranks of Christianity that the main work of the Holy Spirit was the regeneration of the character of the believer.
PPS Have you read Luther's "Commentary on Galatians"? It is truly a must-read. Here is the link again if you cannot locate it.
Luther's Commentary on Galatians
I also recommend studying deeply into the Reformation.
God bless always. |
Valm
| | Posted on Saturday, January 27, 2001 - 5:16 pm: | |
Dear FAF readers,
I have not posted much the last couple of days because the conversation has distressed me. In part because of the insanity of sparring back and forth and coming to no point. But when I really thought about it the reason went much much deeper than that for me.
If the "no transformed life" theory is correct, it would destroy my faith as I know it. It would require me to form a whole new way of thinking and living (again).
In addition and EXCEEDING the change issue is that I would find not having a new life here on earth devastating. I wholeheartedly accept my imperfection. However, I cannot imagine staying in a sorry state of sin without the hope
of progress. This isn't about self righteousness, this is about being happy. This isn't about a focus on me or a holier than thou feeling. This is about living life more abundantly as Jesus promised.
The laws of love aren't for God (in my view); they are to allow us to be happy. Anyone can go through the mechanics of the laws. But without the Holy Spirit coming into our lives they would be just that -- dead mechanical laws. And when you do things mechanically (or at least when I do) I come to resent what I am doing.
If the "no transformed life" theory is correct, my whole view of God would change. I cannot conceive that he would wish us to stay in what I call "the cesspool of sin" just to recognize our dependence on him. That would be abusive.
God gives us his Holy Spirit to come out of it. If he doesn't, there is no point in even bothering to get up in the morning.
Thrilled to have Christ in me, my hope of glory,
Valerie |
Denisegilmore
| | Posted on Saturday, January 27, 2001 - 5:17 pm: | |
Hello Patti,
This statement that you made:
>
Believe it or not, Denise, there are many professed Christians, SDA, RC, mainstream, etc., who believe that the work of Jesus Christ is merely the beginning of salvation; that His work of saving us is not complete unless we complete the work by experiencing a change of heart, change of life.<
Oh believe me,,,I've seen it and thus the reason for not attending Church for going on 6 or 7 months now.
Simply being me, inexperienced as to orthodox Christianity, I read the Bible and rejoiced!
Got on my knees and repented, alone, in a mobile home almost 2 years ago, then started attending Church.
What I witnessed was not what I expected. And what THEY expected of me, was NOT me being me!
So, then with a background of Sabbath keeping in my younger life, I found the Sabbath in the Bible as well. The Church I was attending was a Sunday going Church, so I asked the Pastor why we didn't have service on Saturdays. He explained to me real briefly that we are under this new covenant.
Well, I wouldn't listen to him nor believe him as I remembered so vividly, keeping ALL of the feasts!
So, I found the SDA Church. One of the many Churches I attended with my father in my younger life.
Here I thought that the Sunday keepers expected alot of me, with their traditions I hadn't found in the Bible! Now I'm back in the ranks of the SDA Church and they had a whole new set of rules for me to keep!
I tried, and tried and did my best but was hating attending Church and found myself to be quite the hypocrit in Church. I wasn't being who I really am.
But, I thought that I read the Bible wrong or something and the 'church' confided in me, that indeed, I did read the Bible wrong and that without EGW, I couldn't read it the right way.
So, I began my collection of EGW and believed "some" of her statements. The problems kept building for me. Being that perfect Christian, an SDA Christian, one of the remnant, was something I was finding impossible to do.
So, in Sabbath School too, I started asking questions about this IJ and other such things. Because I had not found them in my supposedly 'wrong' way of reading the Bible.
This cause a turmoil within some people that knew me and it was causing me great confusion.
So, eventually, having been turned down from baptism after all my questions, my differences, my confusion and searches, I quit going to Church and decided to rely on the Bible as God directed me to read it.
This is where I'm at. Free at last, free at last, Thank God Almighty, I'm free at last!! MLK.
It's getting better and better and clearer and clearer. The Gospel. This is my Good News from God.
God is leading me, through the thick of persecution of some, through betrayal of others and things of like nature. But all in all, is God Almighty, holding my hand, putting people in my life that are ALIVE SPIRITUALLY and forever comforting me.
Our God is a good God. His mercy endureth forever and ever. He shall never leave nor forsake us. His promises are sure.
I have no clue why I wrote all of this but there you have a really really short version of what I've seen, experienced, and am experiencing.
Praise God with me!
Now, I'm off to read this now printed out commentary on Galatians by Martin Luther. Thank you for that link Patti. :)
Blessings on your head,
DtB, still standing on the Rock! |
Patti
| | Posted on Saturday, January 27, 2001 - 5:32 pm: | |
You are welcome, Denise!
I can't wait to hear your comments on Luther's comments! J
Our God is a good God. His mercy endureth forever and ever. He shall never leave nor forsake us. His promises are sure.
One hundred per cent!
I have no clue why I wrote all of this but there you have a really really short version of what I've seen, experienced, and am experiencing.
Praise God with me!
I have, I am, I do, I will!
God is leading you. Those who bombast salvation by "mere" faith have no idea what they are speaking of. This faith thing is difficult. Without the aid of the Holy Spirit, we would not even WANT to perceive the saving work of Jesus Christ. But He does work in us and we grow, daily, monthly, weekly, into a more and more steadfast confidence that He is worthy and that He is faithful and will keep His promises to us. Sometimes, it seems, the Spirit leads us in some rather meandering ways, or perhaps that is just the reflection of our own stubbornness at not wanting to believe that our salvation has been fully secured for us; but our destination has been assured; our fare has been paid in full.
May God be with you in your diligent studies, Denise, and may He reveal His salvation more clearly to all of us daily.
With love,
Patti |
Max
| | Posted on Sunday, January 28, 2001 - 7:34 am: | |
Very heartfelt post, Valerie,
I especially liked, ^^In addition and
EXCEEDING the change issue is that I would
find not having a new life here on earth
devastating. I wholeheartedly accept my
imperfection. However, I cannot imagine
staying in a sorry state of sin without the hope
of progress. This isn't about self righteous-
ness, this is about being happy. This isn't
about a focus on me or a holier than thou
feeling. This is about living life more
abundantly as Jesus promised.^^
No, it's not "all about you," but the reason
Christ came IS "all about you." That's the
meaning of His agape love. And your
response is "all about Him"!
Max of the Cross |
Cindy
| | Posted on Sunday, January 28, 2001 - 8:56 am: | |
Valerie, Hi! :-) I agree with you on living in the more abundant life Christ has promised. His Spirit does stay with us when we believe!
Continually, though (even when my outward circumstances and even my inward thoughts do not give me much evidence of this more abundant life), I KNOW my faith RESTS on the fact of JESUS' perfect life and death in my place on the Cross 2000 years ago. He has accomplished all I need for living within His HOLY PRESENCE forever!
My faith can never be destroyed if that is the anchor to my soul!
Then again, the Holy Spirit impresses on me this fact that I AM ALREADY A MEMBER of HIS KINGDOM and so can live gratefully FROM this VICTORY, not wearily TOWARDS it!
I think I know what you mean when you say, "If the "no transformed life" theory is correct, it would destroy my faith as I know it. It would require me to form a whole new way of thinking and living (again)."
We desire a measure of peace and contentment now, don't we? And, like you, I feel this is where the Holy Spirit comes in to COMFORT and GUIDE us! I am very grateful for this daily!
I do trust, though, when my life seems out of control, that God is in control and that HE will hold me always in the palm of His Hand ...where my assurance of eternal life is always SECURE IN HIM.
Grace always,
Cindy
p.s. These sunny days are great here in the NW! I'm glad I moved here in a winter with so much less rain! :-)) |
Valm
| | Posted on Sunday, January 28, 2001 - 4:25 pm: | |
I wholeheartedly agree that we are not working to victory but from victory. The work I do now is not for victory it is because of victory. The work I do now is not to please God but is because he has provided me with guidelines for happiness. I also wish to honor him just as I wish to honor the people I love. I can not possibly measure up to him by my works, but I am happy to do my best.
My brother has an analogy of his children's works of art (refridgerator art). They are of now monetary value or of value to the art community. But in his eyes those pictures are just perfect. I guess that is a great analogy of our efforts and God's love for us.
I was thinking last night of how much I love my kids and that there is nothing I would withhold from them that would help them acheive happiness. (This is not the indulgent giving of a poorly disciplined parent but the real stuff). I can not imagine that God would not do the same for me. I do not expect indulgence (Oh, please let me win the lottery) but I am grateful for the help his Holy Spirit gives me day by day. Without it I am nothing. Without it my attempts to nuture my children, love my husband, thrive in my community would be feeble.
Christian folks often fail in many of these areas. It is not, in my opinion, because the power of Christ is not imparted to us. It is because we have gotten lazy in our part of receiving it.
Cindy, where did you move here from? You have come in on a glorious winter. Don't count on it next year.
Valerie |
Max
| | Posted on Monday, January 29, 2001 - 8:33 am: | |
Valerie,
I like your brother's ^^analogy of his children's
works of art (refrigerator art). They are of no
monetary value or of value to the art com-
munity. But in his eyes those pictures are just
perfect. I guess that is a great analogy of our
efforts and God's love for us.^^
It reminds me of Christ's stone/snake
analogy:
"Which of you, if his son asks for bread, will
give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will
give him a snake? If you, then, though you are
evil, know how to give good gifts to your
children, how much more will your Father in
heaven give good gifts to those who ask him?
So in everything, do to others what you would
have them do to you, for THIS SUMS UP THE
LAW AND THE PROPHETS." --Jesus, NIV
Matthew 7:9-12.
Jesus is talking about life in the kingdom of
heaven, which for believers exists under our
feet as well as over our heads.
He's talking about life in the kingdom of
heaven here and now as well as "beyond the
clouds" some time in future.
For Jesus also said, "The kingdom of God
does not come with your careful observation,
nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,'
because the kingdom of God is within [or
among] you."
The gospel is the "good news" of our "free
ticket to heaven," which by pure grace begins
here and now.
But, as you point out, ^^Christian folks often
fail in many of these areas. It is not, in my
opinion, because the power of Christ is not
imparted to us. It is because we have gotten
lazy in our part of receiving it.^^
We often fail to enjoy the kingdom of heaven
here and now. For what could be more joyful
than giving our children bread and fish instead
of a stone and a snake?
Or seeing the shine in their eyes when they
see that we find their refrigerator art to be
perfect.
I'm glad that Christ put that "though you are
evil" phrase in his analogy, for it reminds us
that even though we are righteous (sinless)
only in Him, we still remain -- all of us -- chiefs
of sinners.
Yes, we are working from victory rather than
toward it. We love because we have first been
loved by Christ. Our faith works. The gospel
produces. The Vine does bear fruit. For Jesus
did say, "Ye shall be my witnesses." Still, our
witness is not to the fruit. Rather the fruit
witnesses of Christ in us, our hope of glory.
A city that is set upon a hill cannot be hid.
Therefore, "Let your light so shine so that
people can see your good deeds and glorify"
-- not you, but -- "your Father in heaven."
MC |
Max
| | Posted on Monday, January 29, 2001 - 10:42 am: | |
Denise,
About the words "imputed" and "imparted," I'm
not enough of a student of historical theology
to attempt an answer for you. But I can give
you the current dictionary definitions to the
words "impute" and "impart." From these you
can see how they differ.
__________________
impute. Comes from combining two word
parts:
(1) "im-" = "in-" = "into."
(2) "putare" = "consider."
The "in-" is combined with the "putare" to
become "into"+"considered" or "considered
put into."
Webster 10th says: "impute" means "to credit
to a person or a cause : ATTRIBUTE (our vices
as well as our virtues have been imputed to
bodily derangement --B. N. Cardoso)." A
similar word (synonym) would be ASCRIBE.
So "to impute" would be very similar to "to
attribute" or "to ascribe."
In theological terms, the righteousness
(sinlessness) of Christ is "considered" (by
God) to be "put into" you. Or "imputed" to you.
You could think of the the baptismal service --
being buried with Christ in the watery grave
and being raised up out of it -- to symbolize
this initial consideration (by God) that you are
righteous (sinless) in Christ. Christ's
righteousness (sinlessness) is IMPUTED to
you.
__________________
impart. Comes from combining two word
parts:
(1) "im-" = "in-" = "into."
(2) "partire" = "to divide" or "to part"
The "im-" is combined with the "partire" to
make "into-" + "part" or "to give [something]
into you."
Webster's 10th says the word "impart" means
"to give, convey, or grant from or as if from a
store (her experience IMPARTED authority to
her words) (the flavor IMPARTED by herbs).
In theological terms, the righteousness
(sinlessness) of Christ is "given" (by God) to
you day by day in parts or divisions or pieces.
You could think of the communion service --
the eating of the broken bread (Christ's broken
body) and the drinking of the spilled wine
(Christ's spilled blood) -- to symbolize this
ongoing impartation.
Christ's righteousness (sinlessness) is
IMPARTED to you.
__________________
To summarize, then:
1. "imputed righteousness" would mean that
you are considered by God to have the
righteousness (sinlessness) of Christ right off
the bat or immediately the instant you accept
Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and
Savior.
2. "imparted righteousness" would mean that
you are given (by God) you day by day in parts
or divisions or pieces the righteousness
(sinlessness) of Christ AFTER you have
accepted Jesus Christ as your personal Lord
and Savior.
__________________
My personal opinion, as I have stated before,
is that OFTAs have so distorted the meaning
of these terms, especially "imparted
righteousness," that the meaning has
become blurred to the point that there is no
real, living distinction between the two.
Eventually, in the erroneous SDA view,
"imparted righteousness" becomes everything
and "imputed righteousness" becomes
nothing.
My take on this situation, especially for
formers, is to forget the 150-year-old
theological tussle between these two terms
and the images used to illustrate them.
One of these images is the glass of oil with
water being poured in to eventually float out all
the oil.
I favor getting back to the terms and images of
Scripture alone.
One of these images is the robe of Christ's
righteousness (sinlessness) which we
NEVER remove, not even after the Second
Coming.
Of course, our sinful natures don't like to think
about continuing to wear it throughout all
eternity -- because that might imply that we will
still be sinners in the heaven that exists over
our heads. But I say: Bite the bullet. Accept the
fact that we will be sinners throughout all
eternity future even though we will not be
committing any sins.
This is where the Lord has led me. You will go
in the direction the Lord leads you, I'm sure.
Blessings always,
MC |
Lydell
| | Posted on Monday, January 29, 2001 - 11:04 am: | |
, ^^Christian folks often
fail in many of these areas. It is not, in my
opinion, because the power of Christ is not
imparted to us. It is because we have gotten
lazy in our part of receiving it.^^
Max, I think there's snother problem as well. For many Christians don't even believe that there IS the power of the Holy Spirit indwelling them and empowering them to live their lives in victory.
If you don't believe the Spirit is honestly within you, then your mind can't be controlled by the Spirit to give you life and peace. If the Spirit doesn't fill your mind, then you are open to satan's attacks, you won't have discernment, you can't hear the promptings of the Spirit, and you certainly will never see the gifts of the Spirit or His power manifest in your life.
And what you end up with is a babe in Christ: born of the Spirit but controlled by the flesh. No renewing of the mind, no transformation of the life.
>We often fail to enjoy the kingdom of heaven
>here and now.
Yes, and isn't that a big difference between where we are now and Adventism? They forever talk of "someday you are going to see the Lord do amazing things" and "in the last days there will be a mighty move of God when the Spirit is outpoured". The Spirit is already being outpoured, the kingdom is already here, He is already invading this dark age, and they don't have a clue! They're still sitting at the bus stop waiting for the right bus to come along. |
Max
| | Posted on Monday, January 29, 2001 - 12:32 pm: | |
Indeed, Lydell,
I think you put your finger right on a huge
problem in America today: cultural Christianity.
It has absolutely nothing to do with "the power
of the Holy Spirit indwelling them and
empowering them to live their lives in victory."
Mahatma Ghandi, a lifelong Hindu, was once
asked what he thought of Christianity. The
gentle reply, "I think that would be a good
idea."
People remain "babes in Christ" all their lives.
The writer of Hebrews says they lack
repentance, obedience and submission to
God.
As far as OFTAs are concerned, ever since
their Great Disappointment in 1844 they've
been ordering God around.
* Witness to "hasten the Second Coming" --
as though as though God's timing has
anything whatsoever to do with our decisions
about what He's going to do and when.
* Outsmart God by getting married as soon as
possible BEFORE Jesus returns in order to
enjoy the pleasures of flesh as long as
possible before going to that land where
there'll be neither marriage nor giving in
marriage. People who think like this are
clueless about the un-mockability of a
sovereign God.
* A real OFTA biggie: Don't do anything! That
way "the time of trouble" CAN'T come in our
lifetimes to terrorize us, take away our homes
and force us to flee to the rocks and the
mountains there to live "on bread and water."
For they think to hold God hostage to his
promise: This gospel shall be preached to the
ends of the earth and then shall the end
come. And, all who live godly in Christ Jesus
shall suffer persecution.
The truth: Any group who says, "We have the
truth," doesn't. For the truth cannot be "had."
And in any case the truth is a Person, Christ
Jesus by name. And no person or group can
"own" him, much less order him around like
some prize riding horse.
MC |
Denisegilmore
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 31, 2001 - 8:09 pm: | |
Thank you Max for making it so much the clearer on the words 'imputed' and 'imparted.'
As you know, these words were driving me nuts!
God Bless you always,
your sister in our Lord Jesus,
DtB |
Patti
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 31, 2001 - 8:54 pm: | |
Denise,
I wanted to write to you but I cannot find your email address.
Would you write me?
drpatti@msn.com
Thanks in advance.
Patti |
|
