| Author | Message | ||
| Max |
Patti, ^^Are you still SDA?^^ No. ^^I am asking you this because you are giving me the same arguments they do.^^ No I'm not. ^^They will not let go of this self-focus; they believe they can please God with their lives. And this is what you are saying.^^ No, it's not. | ||
| Max |
Patti, ^^One of the things that became startlingly clear to me before I left the SDA church was the fact that she teaches the same gospel as the RCC did during the Reformation, and does today. You are preaching that same gospel, and many formers here are buying into your words. This truly concerns me, because it is a case of jumping from the frying pan to the fire. If we do not stand on the Gospel, as given to us by Christ Himself and the Apostle Paul, we stand on the gospel of the Galatians: a believer-centric gospel of character regeneration; legalism.^^ I'm sorry you feel that way, Patti. | ||
| Max |
Patti, ^^What I hear you saying, and what I hear everyone echoing, is indeed the SDA/RCC gospel, a gospel, not of imputation of righteousness, but of actually being made righteous.^^ I'm sorry you misunderstand. | ||
| Max |
Patti, ^^But if the grace of Redemption merited by Christ is to be appropriated by the individual, he must be "regenerated by God", that is he must be justified. What then is meant by justification? A biblio-ecclesiastical term; which denotes the transforming of the sinner from the state of unrighteousness to the state of holiness and sonship of God. Considered as an act, justification is the work of God alone, presupposing, however, on the part of the adult the process of justification and the cooperation of his free will with God's preventing and helping grace). Considered as a state or habit, it denotes the continued possession of a quality inherent in the soul, which theologians aptly term sanctifying grace. . .^^ No one I know of on this website is saying that. | ||
| Max |
Patti, ^^if the grace of Redemption merited by Christ is to be appropriated by the individual, he must be "regenerated by God"....^^ No! Real grace is the fist of God to the face of unregenerate sinners! It is real grace that demands obedience, not the "changed grace" of Jude 4. Cheap grace demands nothing. Hitler was a "cheap grace" Christian, and he led a nation of "cheap grace" Christians into "hell on earth." Bonhoeffer opposed him and all his "cheap grace" Nazi "Christians" by crying out for "costly grace." Grace that DEMANDS your all! "Fist of God to the face" grace. And of course the "cheap grace" Christians did what "cheap grace" Christians do -- they martyred him. For all who live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. | ||
| Max |
Patti, ^^Of late, however, Catholic exegetes have become more and more convinced that the Epistle in question, so remarkable for its insisting on the necessity of good works, neither aimed at correcting the false interpretations of St. Paul's doctrine, nor had any relation to the teaching of the Apostle of the Gentiles. On the contrary, they believe that St. James had no other object than to emphasize the fact -- already emphasized by St. Paul -- that only such faith as is active in charity and good works possesses any power to justify man whilst faith devoid of charity and good works is a dead faith and in the eyes of God insufficient for justification.^^ I lose no sleep over what Our Friends the Catholic exegetes do. I let our Sovereign handle them. Scripture alone is enough for me. For unless I am convinced by Scripture alone, I cannot and will not recant. Here I stand. I can do no other. | ||
| Max |
^^So I am confused as to your agenda. Clearly you are in more agreement with the Catholics (and SDAs) than the Protestants.^^ Clearly? How so? | ||
| Max |
^^So I am confused as to your agenda.^^ I have no agenda. | ||
| Max |
^^Where do your loyalties lie? Are you on the side of the Reformation or of the Catholic church?^^ On the side of Scripture alone. | ||
| Max |
^^Either we are saved by trusting in the imputation of the righteousness of Jesus Christ alone, or we base our hope at least in part on something that happens inside of us.^^ I'm not thinking inside your box, Patti. Scripture, Scripture alone! NIV Romans 3 21 But now a righteousness from God, APART from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness from God comes through FAITH in Jesus Christ to ALL WHO BELIEVE. There is no difference, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God [EACH IS "CHIEF OF SINNERS!], 24 and are justified freely by HIS GRACE [not Satan's "changed grace"] through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished-- 26 he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus. I learned this by reading my Bible alone when I was fifteen years old and since then my belief in it has never been shaken. | ||
| Max |
Patti, ^^If we claim that our witness is our "changed lives," then who among us has a faultless witness?^^ Since no one on this website has claimed that, your question is hypothetical and moot. | ||
| Max |
Patti, ^^If we claim that our witness is our "changed lives," then who among us has a faultless witness?^^ Our witness is not our changed lives. Rather it is the lives of those believers who behold "the Lord's glory" and "are being TRANSFORMED into his likeness with every-increasing glory" who testify to the cross of Christ. Not claiming "faultless witness," but rather "chief of sinners." "Sinless in Christ" and "chief of sinners" all at the same time. | ||
| Max |
Patti, ^^If we make the claim, we must back it up. If we claim that our testimony is our changed lives, then our lives had better be flawless, or else our testimony is void.^^ Since no one on this website is making such a claim, there is no need to back it up. We do not "claim that our testimony is our changed lives." Rather it is our TRANS- FORMED lives that testify to the cross in order that God may have all the glory. We do not claim that "our lives had better be flawless," so there is therefore no need to claim that our testimony is void. Lives that are being TRANSFORMED into new creations are lives that do not make void testimony. For that would be voiding the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. | ||
| Max |
Thank you for the vigorous discussion, Patti, and may God bless you! Max of the Cross | ||
| Max |
Hi Valerie, Thanks for the beautiful story of interacting with people within the borders of the kingdom of heaven. Your story, with your kids and Starbucks barista, etc., showed what life in the kingdom can be like -- even WITH the falling flat on the face. Our falling is the reason why we have a Mediator who says, "I will never leave you or forsake you." We must not only believe that our salvation has been secured from before the foundations of the earth were laid. We must also proclaim it. Such as you are doing on this website. Max of the Cross | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Patti, Thank you for your response;-)) Maryann: "How many of you can say that you did NOT have a person introduce you to Christ?" Patti: <<Of course. "Faith comes of hearing." "How shall we hear unless we have a teacher?" Faith does not come of observing someone's changed character, but of hearing of our acceptance with God for the sake of His Son Jesus Christ.>> My question to you Patti is: Would you listen to a teacher that did not live a Christian life? OR If you had a choice of choosing between two neuro-surgeon's (disciples) that told of the benefit of a much needed spinal surgery (salvation), would you choose the one that was shaking with Parkinson's or the one with steady hands? We are to go out as Matthew 28: 18-20 commanded: <<18And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, ìAll authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19ìGo therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20ìteaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.î Amen. New King James Version.>> I must ask you, are you going out with shaking hands or with steady hands. All/most illustrations can be shot full of holes so please accept this one in the human manner it was ment. <<teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you>> What were some of the things that Jesus taught them? Matthew 22:36-40: <<36ìTeacher, which is the great commandment in the law?î 37Jesus said to him, ì ëYou shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.í 38ìThis is the first and great commandment. 39ìAnd the second is like it: ëYou shall love your neighbor as yourself.í 40ìOn these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.î>> New King James Version. And: Mark 12:29-31 <<29Jesus answered him, ìThe first of all the commandments is: ëHear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. 30ëAnd you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.í This is the first commandment. 31ìAnd the second, like it, is this: ëYou shall love your neighbor as yourself.í There is no other commandment greater than these.î>> New King James Version And: John 13:34-35: << 34ìA new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another. 35ìBy this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.î>> New King James Version Love the Lord with all your heart and mind and soul and strength was a tall order AND then He ruined it with a really tough command of love your neighbor as yourself. Then in another place says we are to love one another as He has loved us! That is one TALL order! Then it is capped off with: <<By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another>> We are instructed and yes, even commanded to DO good, to love as Christ loved and in other words be Christlike lights unto Him. You said: <<I know you would never advocate our thinking that we are sinless; so why do we witness to something that will always be full of sin, i.e. our characters? >> Thank you so much for understanding that "I" believe we can never, of ourselves, before Christ's second coming, be sinless;-)). You asked: <<so why do we witness to something that will always be full of sin, i.e. our characters?>> I'm so glad you asked. Here is my answer: << 34ìA new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another. 35ìBy this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.î>> New King James Version We are commanded to love one another as Christ loved us and that covers it ALL! We are then promised that all will know we are His disciples! When we obey His command to love others as He has loved us, we are also fulfilling the promise, statement and command of Matthew 5:13-16: <<13ìYou are the salt of the earth; but if the salt loses its flavor, how shall it be seasoned? It is then good for nothing but to be thrown out and trampled underfoot by men. 14ìYou are the light of the world. A city that is set on a hill cannot be hidden. 15ìNor do they light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on a lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house. 16ìLet your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven.>> New King James Version To sum it up, if we don't witness to Christ both in pointing others to Him and the "salvation by grace alone" provided for us and by living Christian, Christ honoring lives, we are as salt that has lost it's flavor and is tossed away to be trampled upon. AND....the reason we are able to love one another? BECAUSE WE ARE SAVESD!!!! Not to be saved!!!;-)) Are you letting your light shine so that your Father in heaven may be glorified? Again, thank you for your response;-)) IBC=Insured By Christ | ||
| Denisegilmore |
Daniel 12:3 "And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever." Blessings, DtB | ||
| Patti |
^^I am asking you this because you are giving me the same arguments they do.^^ No I'm not. Indeed you are. Just join up with AI or come to the SDA board at CARM to see for yourself. They preach the same gospel you are preaching. They thrive on the book of James. ^^They will not let go of this self-focus; they believe they can please God with their lives. And this is what you are saying.^^ No, it's not. Oh, but you ARE. You are saying that our holy life is our witness. Do we not please God when we witness? Therefore, you are saying that we actually please God with our holy lives. It is simple algebra. If A = B, and B = C, then A = C. As to your "Fist of God to the face" grace. What a frightful expression! You will find nothing that resembles it in Scripture. Jesus is portrayed as the Lamb of God, the Good Shepherd, the Prince of Peace; He says His yoke is easy and His burden is light. He invites us to come unto Him and find "rest." I don't know where you get your ideas, but they are not biblical. The only people who get a fist to the face (ultimately) are those who reject the grace of God, not, NEVER, those who experience it. Your philosophy sounds more and more ascetic and mystical (a la RCC) the more you describe it. I am truly worried about what you are building your hopes on. Our hope should be built upon the finished work of Jesus Christ for us. "And Jesus said unto them, "The work that God requires is to believe on the One Whom He has sent." No penance, camel's hair garments, fasting, castegating of flesh is required. Jesus paid our penalty in full. All He asks us, again and again, repeatedly, is that we trust in Him to save us. Why is it so hard for us to believe? "Lord, I believe; help Thou mine unbelief." | ||
| Patti |
Would you listen to a teacher that did not live a Christian life? Since I know no one who perfectly reflects the holiness of Christ, then what you are asking me is how much sinfulness I am willing to accept in a person before I will listen to the words of the Gospel from their mouth? I could say, conversely, how much sin am I going to have to rid my life of before I tell others of the saving work of Jesus Christ? I am just not communicating, it is obvious. The Gospel is not about holy living. Even the Catholics recognize that the Protestant Gospel completely separates salvation from holy living. The Gospel is about forgiveness. You are verbalizing the very reason that I felt very awkward in giving any kind of testimony about Jesus. I felt that if I witnessed, then I must have a perfectly upright life so that others would not see me and be disappointed. That is because I did not know what I was witnessing TO. Whenever we involve our own characters in our witness or in our salvation, then we must indeed "get our house in order" before we tell others, or at least TRY to. But the Gospel is not about getting our houses in order. It is about a finished and full salvation. We are all sick. That sickness is called sin. It doesn't matter who we are, we are all sick unto death. A tiny bit of sin is just as lethal as a megadose. So waiting until one has "cured" himself of the sickness in order to witness is not likely. No human ever has been cured. No one has ever conquered his/her sinful nature. Jesus says a little leaven corrupts the entire loaf. It doesn't matter, Maryann, if I am openly living in sin or if I hide my sins in my heart, every fiber of my being is permeated with sin. It is a condition I cannot escape in this lifetime. I am righteous only by faith. By believing in something I cannot see--the perfect obedience of Jesus Christ that justifies the many. I have an inheritance coming. It is a sure thing. Right now I still live in poverty, but I can live joyfully because I know my inheritance is sure. And I can tell others, although I still live in spiritual poverty, of their great inheritance that is coming. I do not have to wait until I actually have the inheritance in hand to tell others. The Gospel is that the inheritance is a done deal; it is being kept in trust (I like that expression! How suitable!) for us in Heaven where our sinful hands cannot corrupt it. "Blessed are they who hunger and thirst after righteousness"--Notice it does not say, "blessed are they who are filled with righteousness." Instead these are people who are empty of anything righteous, and they know it. They hunger for a day of sinless living; they thirst for the ability to please God with their lives. "For they shall be filled." Not only will we be cleansed from sin. We will be FILLED with righteousness. Today by faith; tomorrow in reality. "We know that when He appears (not before), we will be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is." We cannot physically see Him as He is today. We can only cling to His promises, and trust that He is faithful. So, in answer to your question, Would you listen to a teacher that did not live a Christian life?--I would listen to anyone who preached the Gospel of our salvation in Jesus Christ. Just like we are not to focus on our characters, but on Jesus Christ and Him crucified, so we are to judge their messages, not on their characters, but in comparison to the Gospel. Paul says, "If I or anyone else (including angels) preach to you a different gospel, then let them be accursed." The Gospel is the standard by which we judge all things. All things. The Gospel is a message of faith, not of sight. Focused on Jesus alone, we would not be able to judge anyone else's character, because Jesus eclipses all else. Focused on Jesus alone, we would have to accept everyone exactly the way they are, because that is how Jesus accepted us. Focused on Jesus alone, we would have to remember that His grace is sufficient for even the chief of sinners. Focused on Jesus alone, we would have to treat others as if God regarded them as holy, because that is the way God regards us, for the sake of the obedience of the One Man, Jesus Christ. | ||
| Valm |
Dear Friends, I believe this conversation, and perhaps others are at an impasse. I have the feeling that while the talking stick continues to be passed about the listening componenet is not engaged. Please let us consider if the continual batting back on forth opinions is helpful to any of us participating much less those who may be coming here for support. |
