| Author |
Message |
Jrt
Registered user
Username: Jrt
Post Number: 753
Registered: 10-2008
| | Posted on Friday, August 21, 2009 - 2:07 pm: |     |
Hec,
Sorry, I was not implying anything different that what you have written.
I will leave it at that.
Keri |
Hec
Registered user
Username: Hec
Post Number: 459
Registered: 3-2009
| | Posted on Friday, August 21, 2009 - 2:13 pm: | |
((((((Keri, my sister in Christ)))))))
Hec |
Animal
Registered user
Username: Animal
Post Number: 628
Registered: 7-2008
| | Posted on Friday, August 21, 2009 - 2:19 pm: | |
Ditto....Huggssss for Keri !!!!!!! |
Javagirl
Registered user
Username: Javagirl
Post Number: 682
Registered: 6-2005
| | Posted on Friday, August 21, 2009 - 3:16 pm: | |
I think the discusstion above helped to answer my question about angry responses. I remember when I first came to the forum, and I was still SDA, at times I thought people were questioning whether or not I was a Christian, or if my church was a cult or "false gospel". It made me mad and defensive. I knew I was a Christian, and indeed I was. I had been saved several years before and knew it, as I mentioned in my story. I felt like people were judging my walk with Christ.
I know now that they were judging the denomination, as they should, and not me, but I was so tied into the denomination as my identity, that I could not separate the two at first.
Im wondering outloud if one can be an "Old Covenant Christian" vs a "New Covenant Christian". Paul seems to think one can at least fall backward into Old Covenant Christianity, and limited or false Gospel.
I do understand the need to be born again, and have one's dead spirit come to life.
I wonder if one could be a born-again Christian, albeit an "old covenant christian" like an infant Christian who has not grown up yet into truth. Are there SDA's in this postion. I would think so, based on my experience.
Interesting thought, unfortunately, Im outahere for the night. Hope this made sense as I think through this.
Lori |
Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 7370
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Friday, August 21, 2009 - 3:21 pm: | |
I was not a Christian as an SDA. I did not know God. I am thankful awesome God knew my heart and very gently pulled me out of adventism. It took Him a long time. He was with me as I raised my son and through all my rebellious period.
Diana L |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 5366
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Friday, August 21, 2009 - 5:07 pm: | |
I get these responses so often it gets boring. The other person was speaking in general terms and so was I, but people read it and the re-action is, "I was saved while I was an Adventist."
Again, even though it has been hacked over and explained so many times, here goes again.
The thought was not to say there is not a saved person in the Adventist church, the thought behind the statement is that Adventism is not Christian in its very nature.
In fact it is controlled by a spirit that is evil in itself. What does that say for the ones who claim their salvation as Adventist? Not anyone else's place to deny the claim. Gods work of the Holy Spirit within Adventism is his own.
I inadvertently opened up the can of worms, so I take responsibility for it. I have been on the forum long enough to know the responses.
Hec and Animal, I really don't care how you got out of Adventism, I'm just glad your not in it.
As a general rule though, you might consider that it is us who needs to line up with Gods word, not him needing to line up with us.
If you treat Adventism in general as the Christian faith, regardless of your own experience, then the question to ask yourself is are you coming into line with Gods word or your feelings?
There are four pillars to the Christian faith and if you do not have these four pillars as your foundation, then you cannot, in truth, call yourself a Christian.
Adventist, JW, Morman, Catholic all, call themselves Christians, but that doesn't make them Christians, because they do not have the four pillars of the Christian faith as their foundation. You cannot remove these four pillars with the bible doctrine, they are rock solid.
You can take the four pillars of the Christian faith and no matter how hard you try, you cannot remove a single one of them by looking into the word of God.
My thinking is the best way to come out of Adventism is to realize there is nothing back there worth holding onto. Just my opinion now, opinions are like donkey doo, they are all over the place.
So Hec and Animal, if you were saved wearing a pickle jar on your head, I praise God for it.
And my question has not been answered, how do you handle anger at things that set you off?
Christians are not above getting angry, just thought I would break it too you gently though.
I reworded the question for simplicities sake, just so I don't get Hec all upset. I think me and Hec has had our round enough for a while anyhow. 
River |
Asurprise
Registered user
Username: Asurprise
Post Number: 977
Registered: 7-2007
| | Posted on Friday, August 21, 2009 - 5:46 pm: | |
Jrt and Animal; you're both right! Let me explain....
Animal, you were saved BEFORE you became an Adventist. You didn't have anyone to tell you that you couldn't completely accept Jesus' sacrifice for you, so you accepted His sacrifice and were saved. Even though you were decieved later, you were KEPT saved by the power of God (see 1st Peter 1:5).
JRT, you're right that Adventism is NOT Christian, because of the simple fact that an Adventist isn't allowed (if they really believe all the doctrine) to completely accept Jesus' sacrifice for them. They are taught that they can lose it (snapping my fingers) just like that! They're taught that when they "accept Christ," only their PAST sins are forgiven. If only a person's PAST sins are forgiven, then they'd be lost the next second; because then they wouldn't be covered anymore. The Apostle Paul wouldn't have been able to tell believers that they "have been saved" (Ephesians 2:8,9); that God "has saved us" 2nd Tim. 1:9; and that God "saved us" (Titus 3:5). John wouldn't have been able to write his letter saying; "your sins have been forgiven you" (1st John 2:12).
Now I was RAISED an Adventist, and I was one for over 50 years. I was taught that a person can't believe they are saved (Ellen White), so I couldn't quite accept Jesus' sacrifice for me. I was taught that only my PAST sins were forgiven each time I asked forgiveness, so I hoped that when it came time to die, I'd have time to ask forgiveness (so much for the assurance that the apostle Paul talks so much about).
I was lost, because I innocently DID NOT accept Jesus' sacrifice in my behalf - that's the way I was taught by the Adventist church. My guess is that the vast majority of people in a false-Christian cult like this, are lost; though I don't deny that a person can be saved BEFORE they join such a cult. And I know that a person can be saved BEFORE they leave the cult if somehow they can get past the teaching and REALLY ACCEPT Jesus' finished work.
I don't see how a person can be saved while believing that Jesus' sacrifice isn't enough though. A person would somehow have to come to the point of totally giving up on themselves and no longer be trying to save/partly save themselves. I just don't see how anyone could possibly come to that point while believing Ellen White or Joseph Smith or the pope or the Watchtower society.
Dianne |
Jrt
Registered user
Username: Jrt
Post Number: 754
Registered: 10-2008
| | Posted on Friday, August 21, 2009 - 6:33 pm: | |
Hec and Animal,
I was not upset when I wrote, "I will leave it at that". Unfortunately, on the internet you can't read the tone of my voice, nor my facial expressions.
The comment was simply I have nothing more to say.
I was going to post in the member's section, but I'm pretty tired tonight. I was simply going to explain my sensitivity to the topic as I was reading it ...
Put up some freezer corn this evening ... want some ... they said it was the best corn all season ... it will come in handy this winter.
Friends in Christ,
Keri |
Animal
Registered user
Username: Animal
Post Number: 629
Registered: 7-2008
| | Posted on Friday, August 21, 2009 - 6:50 pm: | |
River...Hec and Animal, I really don't care how you got out of Adventism, I'm just glad your not in it.
Animal.. I am glad as well. God gets the glory !!!
River....As a general rule though, you might consider that it is us who needs to line up with Gods word, not him needing to line up with us.
Animal....I agree 100%. I never stated or believed the later. But good advice nontheless.
River..,If you treat Adventism in general as the Christian faith, regardless of your own experience, then the question to ask yourself is are you coming into line with Gods word or your feelings?
Animal...I live by faith not by feelings, at least that has always been my goal as I grow in my walk with Him. Sometimes I stumble(trying to be honest here).Feelings tend to get me in trouble.
River....There are four pillars to the Christian faith and if you do not have these four pillars as your foundation, then you cannot, in truth, call yourself a Christian.
Animal...You may have as many "pillars"as you like. I dont count pillars. I have but one foundation, and that is CHRIST and Him crucified. HE IS MY ALL IN ALL. I am also not impressed with talks about Covenants either. The gospel message is simple. The only covenant that matters is MY covenant with GOD. Simple as that.
River....My thinking is the best way to come out of Adventism is to realize there is nothing back there worth holding onto. Just my opinion now, opinions are like donkey doo, they are all over the place.
Animal...in this case, your opinion is right on the mark. See,,we can agree on certain things...lol lol.
River...So Hec and Animal, if you were saved wearing a pickle jar on your head, I praise God for it.
Animal...you can have the pickle jar..Give me Jesus.
River...And my question has not been answered, how do you handle anger at things that set you off?
Christians are not above getting angry, just thought I would break it too you gently though.
Animal....Of course I have to deal with anger as things set me off. Despite my user name I am human.(really I am human).What I usually do is remind myself that God is in control and He has His eye on me. Then I ask for Gods grace to give me peace of mind. Sometimes I also sing a hymn or religous chorus to refocus my heart and mind on what really matters...my relationship with Him.
...Animal |
Animal
Registered user
Username: Animal
Post Number: 630
Registered: 7-2008
| | Posted on Friday, August 21, 2009 - 6:59 pm: | |
Keri...
I am not upset or mad at you. You did no wrong. I guess I misunderstood you post. For that I am sorry. Please forgive me. Enjoy your corn. I am jealous...lol lol lol
....Animal |
Skeeter
Registered user
Username: Skeeter
Post Number: 243
Registered: 12-2007
| | Posted on Friday, August 21, 2009 - 7:20 pm: | |
As for dealing with anger....or feelings of hopelesness, utter frustration, etc.
I have in the past month or so been simply singing (in my head) "one day at a time sweet Jesus, one day at a time" Might sound silly to some... but it works for me. :-> Then I just ask for God to forgive my FEELINGS and help me deal with things/ people/ situations as He woud want me to. Which usually comes down to just keeping my big mouth shut and praying for whoever/ whatever the situation happens to be. :-/
Francie |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 5368
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Friday, August 21, 2009 - 9:04 pm: | |
Quote: Animal...You may have as many "pillars"as you like. I dont count pillars. I have but one foundation, and that is CHRIST and Him crucified. HE IS MY ALL IN ALL. I am also not impressed with talks about Covenants either. The gospel message is simple. The only covenant that matters is MY covenant with GOD. Simple as that.
Animal the foundation of the four pillars of the Christian faith is Christ and him crucified.
Study of this and the covenants is very important to bring one to an understanding of things God wanted us to know, and while our own covenant with him and him being our all is all that counts for us, there are others out there who need our growth in knowledge of the whole council of God.
I said this, not for you and not to argue, but for everyone, me included.
River |
Hec
Registered user
Username: Hec
Post Number: 461
Registered: 3-2009
| | Posted on Saturday, August 22, 2009 - 11:31 am: | |
So according to Dianne, I'm not saved because unlike Animal, I was "born" in the SDA movement. So now, the standard for being saved is not Jesus, but in what church one is born in. If one accepts Jesus before becoming SDA one is saved and even if one becomes SDA one keeps his salvation. But if one accepts Jesus while SDA, one is not saved.
That's the problem when we add requirements to the simple statement of the Gospel:
quote:"What shall I do be be saved? Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved." Acts 16:30,31.
"...that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." John 3:16.
I think that I'll stick to the Word rather than human arguments.
Hec |
Asurprise
Registered user
Username: Asurprise
Post Number: 981
Registered: 7-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, August 22, 2009 - 12:17 pm: | |
Hec, you misunderstood. I know that people are sometimes saved BEFORE God leads them out of Adventism. Have you read Dale Ratzlaff's testimony? That happened in his case.
What I was trying to say, is that if one BELIEVES Ellen White, then they cannot believe those verses you quoted above. A person cannot believe BOTH Jesus and Ellen White. You can believe one or the other, but you cannot believe both. When I was an SDA, I tried to believe BOTH, but it doesn't work to do that. They cancel each other out and you end up with zero. A positive plus a negative equals zero.
So yes, a person CAN be saved while in the SDA church, but they certainly CANNOT believe what Ellen White says about salvation at the same time. |
Hec
Registered user
Username: Hec
Post Number: 462
Registered: 3-2009
| | Posted on Saturday, August 22, 2009 - 12:33 pm: | |
Thanks for the clarification. Now, you do know that there are 1000s of SDA who don't believe in EGW.
Hec |
Asurprise
Registered user
Username: Asurprise
Post Number: 983
Registered: 7-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, August 22, 2009 - 1:32 pm: | |
No, I didn't know that. I believed in Ellen White, though I had to take both her and the Bible metaphorically in order to function as an SDA. The whole SDA church is based on her writings, starting from the IJ; but when I was an SDA, I thought she and the Bible agreed. I just thought she EXPLAINED the Bible.
When I found out that she was a false prophet and then found that the whole SDA church was wrong, I was finally able to take the Bible at face value and believe it exactly as it reads, without having to have Ellen White "interpret" it.
First, Hebrews 6:19,20; Hebrews 9:12,25 and Hebrews 10:12 show that Jesus entered the Most Holy Place in Heaven right away and didn't wait until 1844; is something that proves Ellen White wrong and second, the fact that Jesus brought in a whole new covenant and that the old one is obsolete, is something that proves that the whole SDA church is wrong; Hebrews 8:13 and Hebrews 9:15-17.
Deuteronomy 4:13 and Deuteronomy 5 are two places that clearly show just what the old covenant is. |
Hec
Registered user
Username: Hec
Post Number: 463
Registered: 3-2009
| | Posted on Saturday, August 22, 2009 - 1:52 pm: | |
Let me clarify my statement above. There are 1000s of SDA who do not believe in EGW. They do not read her and they do not want her quoted.
With that said, I do understand that in SDAism EGW understandings of the Bible are so intertwined with the Bible that even when they do not quote her, they are still praching her views. It is very difficult to separate EGW and SDA preaching/teachings if it can be done at all.
With that said, there are many who take the Bible alone and do not agree with the official movement teachings. Maybe they are not SDA at heart, but they call themselves SDA.
Hec |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 5372
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, August 22, 2009 - 7:46 pm: | |
Aw, give me a break! |
Javagirl
Registered user
Username: Javagirl
Post Number: 683
Registered: 6-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, August 22, 2009 - 9:25 pm: | |
Hec, I hear you, to quote you,
"Maybe they are not SDA at heart, but they call themselves SDA."
....also this one that I am adding,
"Maybe they dont call themselves SDA, but they are SDA at heart"
I have lived them both. I have called myself SDA, but not been one at heart.
And for a time lived in denial of my SDA affiliation, claimed to have no religious bent, but all the while lived in the fear of my SDA teachings even thought I didnt attend church.
Actually both stances are filled with fear. There is no sabbath rest! Either feeling guilty for not trying to keep the sabbath, or feeling guilty for trying and not being able, or at least thinking that one day, when the "Sunday laws" were passed, that I would return to the church just in time.....
OH, none of those options are good. They all miss the essence of Christianity, and they miss the wonder and joy of being born again, secure in salvation, and all that God promises in salvation and redemption and restoration! |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 10272
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, August 22, 2009 - 11:32 pm: | |
Lori, exactly! Even the Adventists who do not "believe in Ellen White" actually hold her in some sort of esteem. They may not read her; they may not even know what she says. But they are sahped by her.
Even Adventnists who don't "believe" in Ellen do believe in a worldview that espouses a "great controversy model". They believe God's central purpose is to defend and protect our and Satan's free will. They still believe that they will be evaluated on whether or not they honor God by keeping Sabbath. They still believe in soul sleep which denies the human spirit and thus misinterprets Jesus' sinless nature and the nature of sin and salvation.
So, even those who claim not to believe in Ellen are in bondage to her and to Adventism.
As Lori said, "they miss the wonder and joy of being born again."
Colleen |
Skeeter
Registered user
Username: Skeeter
Post Number: 251
Registered: 12-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, August 23, 2009 - 10:07 pm: | |
You are so right Colleen !
As a SDA I never really felt we needed Ellen White, only the Bible. BUT since all the lesson quartery's are based more on her writings than the Bible... and since we were expected to study those lessons each week so we could participate in Sabbath school class discussions,,, we did get drenched in her ideas even if we thought we weren't... It makes me wonder if that is why a lot of "SDA's" seem to get to church too late for the lesson studies but make it in time for the sermon and stay over for potluck... (notice they call them LESSON studies, not BIBLE studies)
Maybe they dont want to hear a bunch of Ellenisms and yet they dont want to miss out on the "blessing of the Sabbath" as far as the fellowship and the food .
Francie |
Jrt
Registered user
Username: Jrt
Post Number: 756
Registered: 10-2008
| | Posted on Monday, August 24, 2009 - 7:56 am: | |
Animal,
This is late in coming - but no worries. Too bad I can't send you some corn .
Keri |
Asurprise
Registered user
Username: Asurprise
Post Number: 993
Registered: 7-2007
| | Posted on Monday, August 24, 2009 - 8:30 pm: | |
Jrt; I wish you could send me some corn too! |
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