| Author | Message | ||
| Pegg Registered user Username: Pegg Post Number: 247 Registered: 2-2006 |
This is NOT a debate about health care Please DON'T GO THERE!  I think this article about the sociological foundations of the health care debate has implications to the the discussions that we Formers find ourselves having with current SDAs. A few selections: The problem: People on both sides of the [political] aisle often work backward from a firm conclusion to find supporting facts, rather than letting evidence inform their views.What Can We Learn From This? Pegg | ||
| Surfy Registered user Username: Surfy Post Number: 573 Registered: 11-2007 |
I think we can learn to look at the whole issue before making a decision. I doubt most of the people involved in debate, one side or another, have actually read every page of the proposal. That, and it seems like it is constantly changing every time we turn around. I, for one, would like to see the final draft and then make an informed decision. At that point, I would have to weigh my own interests (and that of my family) with the needs of the citizens of this country. It seems like this debate is all about me, me, me and should involve more of "how can we show compassion on those in need (and not destroy the budget in the process)?" If I say too much more, I'm afraid it will turn into a debate regarding health care reform. Most of you know that I sell health insurance so I am watching this carefully...with an open mind. Surfy | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 5389 Registered: 9-2006  |
I don't think you can learn a whole lot from the health debate. Adventism is a spiritual problem, not a mental problem, how we debate the problem won't help, in fact, all the psychologist in the world pulling together will not solve it. Spirit is spirit and flesh is flesh and what you just listed is flesh and in no way resembles spiritual discernment of a problem. Until Adventism is spiritually discerned, anyone, be they former or not is just wasting their time and everybody else time, including the Adventist time. This debate may look a lot like the stuff on here and that is because an awful lot of the debate on here has little to do with spiritual discernment, but it ain't going to help a whit in getting to the root of the problem which is a spiritual one. River | ||
| Pegg Registered user Username: Pegg Post Number: 248 Registered: 2-2006 |
Oh Sorry! I wasn't clear... What can we, AS SDAs AND FORMER SDAs LEARN from the UNDERLYING HUMAN TENDENCIES discussed in the OP? Please Do NOT Discuss Health Care! Thanks! Pegg (Message edited by pegg on August 26, 2009) (Message edited by pegg on August 26, 2009) (Message edited by pegg on August 26, 2009) | ||
| Jonvil Registered user Username: Jonvil Post Number: 305 Registered: 4-2007 |
Just had to adapt this as a commentary on the endless arguments pertaining to doctrinal beliefs: “There is a tendency to evaluate the validity of an argument on the basis of whether or not one agrees with the conclusion, rather than on whether or not it follows logically from the premise (Sola Scriptura). Thus we have a tendency to judge things by their believability rather than their (scriptural) validity - clear evidence that logic goes out of the window when beliefs are strong. This lack of ‘logic’ isn’t specific to economics (theology), in general we, as a species, suffer belief bias. This a tendency to evaluate the validity of an argument on the basis of whether or not one agrees with the conclusion, rather than on whether or not it follows logically from the premise” (Adapted from a speech done by James Montier of Société Générale in London on the problems with the Efficient Market Hypothesis). | ||
| Pegg Registered user Username: Pegg Post Number: 249 Registered: 2-2006 |
I agree, River. I think there is something to learn, however, about when what is spiritual is being presented and the reaction is not of the Spirit. In this case, the behavior that we see (and you experience in that Bible study that gets you so riled up) is normal human behavior. OF COURSE PEOPLE ACT THIS WAY! Realizing this can make compassion easier on our end. The fact that it does nothing to change the spiritual dynamics doesn't mean there's nothing to learn. Pegg | ||
| Pegg Registered user Username: Pegg Post Number: 250 Registered: 2-2006 |
Yup, John! Thanks for the addition. Pegg | ||
| Skeeter Registered user Username: Skeeter Post Number: 254 Registered: 12-2007 |
On the post this quote made sense to me because of something that happened yesterday... "People get deeply attached to their beliefs," Hoffman said. "We form emotional attachments that get wrapped up in our personal identity and sense of morality, irrespective of the facts of the matter." And to keep our sense of personal and social identity, Hoffman said, we tend to use a backward type of reasoning in order to justify such beliefs."" Yesterday Hubby and I drove over to the valley and met his (SDA) Mom and Dad (not SDA or anything else...) for lunch. During lunch my MIL mentioned to me some books that she had been reading by a man .. I think she said his name is Phillip Yancey. (not sure of the first name) she said I should pick up any of his books I see and read them. I asked if she has ever read anything by Charles Spurgeon. She got a funny look on her face and said "yes, I'm sure I did years ago" She made a remard about his things being really old and I just said "yes, I think mostly from the late 1800's" Had to almost bite my tongue to keep from telling her it was during the same time period that Ellen White was doing HER writing... reminded myself that we went there to visit and have a nice lunch and not to get into an argument about anything... :-) She mentioned another (non SDA) author she had read something by ... I think she was TRYING to make me think she was being "open minded" by reading non SDA authors,, BUT THEN..... she totally blew it by saying out loud what I already knew to be true . "I enjoy reading other authors of religion as long as they don't teach doctrine, I know what I believe and I just wont read it." I didnt say anything, but I am sure she could tell by the faraway look on my face what I was thinking...LOL I was determined to NOT argue religion but to show her kindness and love and to try and treat her just as I always have. She knows I have issues with the SDA church, and she knows that I know how she feels and as much as I would like to pick her up and shake her and tell her she needs the veil removed from her eyes so she can see the truth...... I wont do that. She is over 80 years old and she is stubborn and she believes what she believes.. Roger told her about something surprisingly good that happened to him a while back and I told her it was an answer to prayer and came just when we really needed it... she pointed her fork at him and said "remember the rain falls on the just and on the unjust,, just because this happened doesnt mean you are living right in Gods eyes". :-( So I said.. "And it doesnt mean he ISN'T either" I just thought... why cant she just be happy for us ??? Oh well. I tread lightly with her as I do not want to ruin our family relationship,,, this is a woman who did not speak to one of her sisters for over 13 years because of a petty argument. | ||
| Pegg Registered user Username: Pegg Post Number: 252 Registered: 2-2006 |
Oh my! This is SO difficult! I feel like crying for your husband and you right now. I agree. Picking up and shaking is something only God can do. Understanding these types of reactions are just normal human behavior makes it easier to deal with our own emotions as we wait for His timing. Bless You! Pegg | ||
| Pegg Registered user Username: Pegg Post Number: 255 Registered: 2-2006 |
Skeeter - I feel like crying for your MIL, too. Pegg | ||
| Skeeter Registered user Username: Skeeter Post Number: 255 Registered: 12-2007 |
Yea, me too. I love her to pieces and I want so badly to share with her what I have learned... I think maybe a part of it is that (besides thinking she is right and being stubborn..) she doesnt want to admit the possibility that just m aybe what she has believed all these years is just not true. That she raised her 5 children as SDA (though non of them are now) she is the lone holdout and with the predictions the church and EGW made,, I am sure she probably feels that unless we all repent and go back to being SDA athat we will all end up being lost. :-( I can understand that as I had those same feelings when I first started learning the truth about SDAism... and her being 80+ years old,, I am sure it would be much harder for her to have to start over and learn and unlearn so much... that is why I deal gently with her... I feel I can make more progress with her by just being loving and kind and at the same time unwavering in my own commitment to God. But it makes me feel sad because whenever I think of my MIL now I always think "there is none so blind as he who WILL not see". I think she is so afraid of searching outside what she is so familiar with.. she is Superintendent at her little church and usually always has a part in leading in lessons, etc. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 10294 Registered: 12-2003  |
I am firmly convinced that the Holy Spirit can totally strip away that veil even in octogenarians. There is a couple in their 80s who began to come to our FAF group about two years ago. They were given a copy of Proclamation, and they called LAM after reading it. They started coming to our weekly Bible study and then to Sunday lunch. We've had many talks re: doctrine and family with them..it was particularly hard for the man because his daughters (second marriage for him & his wife) were actually being verbally abusive to him over his leaving. But the outcome is that both of them have completely found freedom in Jesus. Both have been baptized into Christ at Trinity church. And the man has even become much more peaceful about his daughters who remain opposed. We even prayed with him, at his request, for God to remove the spirit of Adventism and replace it with His own Spirit. So, don't think it can't happen! Colleen | ||
| Pegg Registered user Username: Pegg Post Number: 257 Registered: 2-2006 |
Oh You Are So Right, Colleen Praise Our Gracious God! He is in the re-birthing business, and He never misses out on a delivery! This Is Why Jesus Could Say That He Would Not Lose Even One Of Those The Father Had Given To Him. Pegg | ||
| Bskillet Registered user Username: Bskillet Post Number: 554 Registered: 8-2008 |
Ah, the Efficient Market Hypothesis, the EMH. Now you're speaking my language. Yes, this is an excellent example of where human beings lack the ability to deal with an idea objectively and logically. There is little if any evidence in historical financial data to sustain the EMH, and an overwhelming avalanche of data to contradict the EMH, yet many academic economists continue to teach that it is valid. An excellent, excellent analogy. Human beings are not capable of objective, logical analysis. In my native realm of mathematics, we mathematicians have created all sorts of harsh rules of very tight logical precision to guide our craft because the mind is, on its own, so sadly incapable of pure and sound logic. I think of Barth: We are not called to impartially analyze and objectively discern all things through the power of our faulty human minds. We are called to sit on our Father's lap and let Him embrace us in our brokenness. Someonce once asked Barth what, in all his years of deep theological study, was the most profound truth he had ever discovered. Barth's reply: "Jesus loves me, this I know, for the Bible tells me so." (Message edited by bskillet on August 27, 2009) | ||
| Pegg Registered user Username: Pegg Post Number: 264 Registered: 2-2006 |
I think it is useful (and humbling) for us to know that this is the nature of our flesh, too.  Things of God are discerned through the Spirit. But for now the Spirit dwells in our fragile clay jars. Often we act in the flesh and not in the Spirit. At these times, when we proceed under our own guidance, believers are just as susceptible to the behaviors described in the OP as SDAs are. No Wonder Sometimes There Are Fireworks When We Get Together! Pegg |
