| Author | Message | ||
| Max |
Patti, ^^The Gospel is Jesus Christ and Him crucified. We must not divert any focus from Him and His perfect saving work for those who believe that He is faithful and will keep His promise to save them.^^ Denying the indwelling of Christ's Holy Spirit IS diverting focus from "His perfect saving work" on the cross. | ||
| Bmorgan |
Many years ago, I sensed a longing in my heart to be better. I knew I was missing something in my life. In my high school, were some girls that I admired very much. I could tell their lives were different. They did not mix with the rowdy crowd, and were very well behaved. It sort of attracted me to them. I longed to be like them to have what they have. When they invited me to their evangelistic meetings I was thrilled and readily accepted the "gospel" message their evangelist presented so well. I also met some very wonderful people who were sincere, upstanding christian folks that were explempry citizens. I grabbed hold of their message. Their had the truth in all its form (I was convinced). Their lives testified and witnessed to me about Christ. Many years later, I HEARD the gospel and today it has changed my life to one of FREEDOM in Christ. Yes, I sense, observe and recognise a change in me, I love Christ and their is a deep settled peace in my soul. My point, the more i study the book of Romans the more I understand what you are saying Patti. You may think that your voice is not heard, but take heart. The gospel is not about changed lives(thought lives are changed), it is not about our witness (We tend to boast and become self righteous) It is about FAITH in Jesus Christ. Keep on preaching the word sister. Cindy, I appreciate your clarity in expressing the gospel along with Patti. Thank you both BMorgan | ||
| Max |
^^"Faith also comes by observing" is ... unsupportable biblically....^^ It is easily supportable biblically! "The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit." John 3:8 NIV. For one OBSERVES the RESULTS of the wind everywhere -- giant ocean waves, scudding autumn leaves, nearly horizontal rain, tornado swaths through cities . . . . "In the same way, LET YOUR LIGHT SHINE BEFORE MEN, that they may SEE YOUR GOOD DEEDS and praise" -- not you, but -- "your Father in heaven." And a host of similar Scriptures! | ||
| Max |
^^"Faith also comes by observing" ... is a contradiction of terms. Faith is believing in the unobservable.^^ If the clause "faith ... comes by observing" is a contradiction of terms, then "faith ... comes by hearing" is also. But neither is. | ||
| Max |
^^Heb. 11:1 Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. The text you provided itself states that these people were known for their trust in God; it says nothing of their changed characters.^^ Hebrews 11 is not about people who by faith in the coming cross OBEYED God? Abel did not by faith OFFER God a better sacrifice than Cain? Noah did not by faith BUILD an ark? Abraham did not by faith OBEY and GO "to a place he would later receive as his inheritance"? Did not by faith OFFER "Isaac as a sacrifice"? Isaac did not by faith BLESS "Jacob and Esau in regard to their future"? Jacob did not by faith BLESS "each of Joseph's sons"? Did not by faith WORSHIP "as he leaned on the top of his staff"? Moses' parents did not by faith HIDE "him for three months after he was born"? Moses did not by faith REFUSE "to be known as the son of Pharoah's daughter"? Did not by faith CHOOSE "to be mistreated along with the people of God rather than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a short time"? The children of Israel did not by faith PASS "through the Red Sea as on dry land"? The prostitute did not by faith WELCOME the spies"? Others in the chapter did not by faith: CONQUER "kingdoms"? ADMINISTER "justice"? "SHUT the mouths of lions"? QUENCH "the fury of the flames"? BECOME "powerful in battle"? ROUT "foreign armies"? | ||
| Max |
^^"Became a model" How?^^ Became a model by ìyour WORK produced by faith, your LABOR prompted by love, and your ENDURANCE inspired by hope.î ^^By believing^^ -- by believing with a faith that WORKS, a love that LABORS, a hope that ENDURES. ^^"Your faith in God has become known everywhere." "The Lord's message rang out from you." What is the Lord's message? The Gospel. Salvation by the perfect righteous- ness of Christ alone.^^ And therefore MANIFESTED in faith that WORKS, love that LABORS, and hope that ENDURES. NIV 1 Thessalonians 1:3 We continually remember before our God and Father YOUR WORK PRODUCED BY FAITH, YOUR LABOR PROMPTED BY LOVE, and YOUR ENDURANCE INSPIRED BY HOPE in our Lord Jesus Christ. 4 For WE KNOW, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you, 5 BECAUSE OUR GOSPEL CAME TO YOU NOT SIMPLY WITH WORDS, BUT ALSO WITH POWER, with the Holy Spirit and with deep conviction. You know HOW WE LIVED among you for your sake. 6 YOU BECAME IMITATORS of us and of the Lord; in spite of SEVERE SUFFERING, you welcomed the message with the joy given by the Holy Spirit. 7 And so YOU BECAME A MODEL to all the believers in Macedonia and Achaia. 8 The LORDíS MESSAGE RANG OUT FROM YOU not only in Macedonia and Achaia -- YOUR FAITH IN GOD HAS BECOME KNOWN everywhere. Therefore we do not need to say anything about it, 9 for THEY themselves REPORT what kind of reception you gave us. They TELL HOW YOU TURNED TO GOD FROM IDOLS to serve the living and true God.... | ||
| Max |
Patti, ^^I have heard this argument before--that Paul was merely using hyperbole in expressing modesty in regard to his character.^^ That's not my argument. | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Morgan, Hey sis, give me a holler at my new e-dress;-)) christyourternallife@hotmail.com Maryann | ||
| Max |
Patti, ^^Either he is truly "the chief of sinners," or he is not. He says he is. So either he is truly the "chief of sinners," saved only by the mercy of God, or he is presenting to us a false modesty.^^ Paul is saying here that every one of us is ìthe chief of sinners.î There is no other possible interpretation that fits with all of his writings. One cannot read Romans 3 exegetically, for instance, and conclude that there are DEGREES of sinner-ness in Paul! Come on, Patti! Are you serious? Are you saying YOU are less of a sinner than Paul? Hear Romans 3 NIV: ìThere is no one righteous, not even one.î ìThere is no one who does good, not even one.î ìAll have turned away.î ìThey have TOGETHER become worthless.î ìTheir throats are open graves.î ìTheir tongues practice deceit.î ìThe poison of vipers is on their lips.î Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness.î Their feet are swift to shed blood.î ìRuin ruin and misery mark their ways.î ìThe way of peace they do not know.î ìThere is no fear of God before their eyes.î No! Paul means that each one of us is cheif of sinners. There may be degrees of sin. But there's a difference between a sin and a sinner. Nowhere does Paul teach degrees of sinner-ness! | ||
| Max |
^^Paul knew that he was, continued to be, the "chief of sinners," and that his (as well as our) only hope is in the mercy of God in forgiving undeserving sinners. All glory be to Christ who has earned our salvation, our forgiveness, our acceptance with God, for us, the "chiefs of sinners."^^ Amen, for ONLY in this way can the veil of legalism be taken away: "Their [the Israelites'] minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil rremains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away. Even to this day [AD 55] when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. Now the Lord IS the [Holy] Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. And WE, who with unveiled faces all reflect [or behold] the Lord's glory, ARE BEING TRANSFORMED into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit." | ||
| Maryann |
Hey! Anyone remember the dog bone story?;-)) IBC | ||
| Max |
Patti, ^^Never! It was Paul's NON-blaspheming, NON-persecuting, NON-violent CHANGED character that testified -- not to his own righteousness -- but that of his Lord alone. When did he EVER indicate this?^^ Paul indicates this in NIV 2 Corinthians 11:23 Are they [ìfalse apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christî] servants of Christ? (I am out of my mind to talk like this.) I am more. I have worked much harder, been in prison more frequently, been flogged more severely, and been exposed to death again and again. 24 Five times I received from the Jews the forty lashes minus one. 25 Three times I was beaten with rods, once I was stoned, three times I was shipwrecked, I spent a night and a day in the open sea, 26 I have been constantly on the move. I have been in danger from rivers, in danger from bandits, in danger from my own countrymen, in danger from Gentiles; in danger in the city, in danger in the country, in danger at sea; and in danger from false brothers. 27 I have LABORED and TOILED and have often gone without sleep; I have known hunger and thirst and have often gone without food; I have been cold and naked. 28 Besides everything else, I face daily the pressure of my concern for all the churches. 29 Who is weak, and I do not feel weak? Who is led into sin, and I do not inwardly burn? ^^It was not his changed life, but his fearless preaching of Jesus Christ that was his powerful testimony.^^ No, Patti. Fearless preaching, yes, but not without the POWER of the cross energizing his TRANSFORMED life from within. NIV 1 Thessalonians 1:4 For we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you, 5 because OUR GOSPEL CAME TO YOU NOT SIMPLY WITH WORDS, BUT ALSO WITH POWER, with the Holy Spirit and with deep conviction. You know how we lived among you for your sake. 6 You became imitators of us and of the Lord; in spite of severe suffering, you welcomed the message with the joy given by the Holy Spirit. 7 And SO YOU BECAME A MODEL to all the believers in Macedonia and Achaia. | ||
| Patti |
Indeed, for our loving words and actions ARE the testimony of the cross "to a hungering and thirsting world." Sorry, Max, but our "filthy rags" righteousness could never provide a "witness" to the perfection of Jesus Christ. I have asked you before, and you did not answer. Are you still SDA? I am asking you this because you are giving me the same arguments they do. They will not let go of this self-focus; they believe they can please God with their lives. And this is what you are saying. One of the things that became startlingly clear to me before I left the SDA church was the fact that she teaches the same gospel as the RCC did during the Reformation, and does today. You are preaching that same gospel, and many formers here are buying into your words. This truly concerns me, because it is a case of jumping from the frying pan to the fire. If we do not stand on the Gospel, as given to us by Christ Himself and the Apostle Paul, we stand on the gospel of the Galatians: a believer-centric gospel of character regeneration; legalism. What I hear you saying, and what I hear everyone echoing, is indeed the SDA/RCC gospel, a gospel, not of imputation of righteousness, but of actually being made righteous: But if the grace of Redemption merited by Christ is to be appropriated by the individual, he must be "regenerated by God", that is he must be justified. What then is meant by justification? A biblio-ecclesiastical term; which denotes the transforming of the sinner from the state of unrighteousness to the state of holiness and sonship of God. Considered as an act, justification is the work of God alone, presupposing, however, on the part of the adult the process of justification and the cooperation of his free will with God's preventing and helping grace). Considered as a state or habit, it denotes the continued possession of a quality inherent in the soul, which theologians aptly term sanctifying grace. . . The Protestant view of justification (according to the Catholics): What then is the part assigned to faith in justification? According to Luther (and Calvin also), the faith that justifies is not, as the Catholic Church teaches, a firm belief in God's revealed truths and promises), but is the infallible conviction that God for the sake of Christ will no longer impute to us our sins, but will consider and treat us, as if we were really just and holy, although in our inner selves we remain the same sinners as before. Cf. Solid. Declar. III, sec. 15: "Through the obedience of Christ by faith the just are so declared and reputed, although by reason of their corrupt nature they still are and remain, sinners as long as they bear this mortal body." This so-called "fiduciary faith" is not a religious-moral preparation of the soul for sanctifying grace, nor a free act of cooperation on the part of the sinner; it is merely a means or spiritual instrument granted by God to assist the sinner in laying hold of the righteousness of God, thereby to cover his sins in a purely external manner as with a mantle. For this reason the Lutheran formularies of belief lay great stress on the doctrine that our entire righteousness does not intrinsically belong to us, but is something altogether exterior. Cf. Solid. Declar., sec. 48: "It is settled beyond question that our justice is to be sought wholly outside of ourselves and that it consists entirely in our Lord Jesus Christ." The contrast between Protestant and Catholic doctrine here becomes very striking. For according to the teaching of the Catholic Church the righteousness and sanctity which justification confers, although given to us by God as efficient cause and merited by Christ as meritorious cause, become an interior sanctifying quality or formal cause in the soul itself, which it makes truly just and holy in the sight of God. In the Protestant system, however, remission of sin is no real forgiveness, no blotting out of guilt. Sin is merely cloaked and concealed by the imputed merits of Christ; God no longer imputes it, whilst in reality it continues under cover its miserable existence till the hour of death. Thus there exist in man side by side two hostile brothers as it were -- the one just and the other unjust; the one a saint, the other a sinner; the one a child of God, the other a slave of Satan -- and this without any prospect of a conciliation between the two. For, God by His merely judicial absolution from sin does not take away sin itself, but spreads over it as an outward mantle His own righteousness. The Lutheran (and Calvinistic) doctrine on justification reaches its climax in the assertion that "fiduciary faith", as described above, is the only requisite for justification. As long as the sinner with the "arm of faith" firmly clings to Christ, he is and will ever remain regenerated, pleasing to God, the child of God and heir to heaven. Faith, which alone can justify, is also the only requisite and means of obtaining salvation. Neither repentance nor penance, neither love of God nor good works, nor any other virtue is required, though in the just they may either attend or follow as a result of justification. (Cf. Solid. Declar, sec. 23: "Indeed, neither contrition nor love nor any other virtue, but faith alone is the means by which we can reach forth and obtain the grace of God, the merit of Christ and the remission of sin." "Incidentally, we may here call attention to another significant fact, namely that it was Luther who laid the foundation for the separation of religion and morality. For, by stating that fiduciary faith alone suffices for obtaining both justification and eternal happiness, he minimized our moral faculties to such an extent that charity and good works no longer affect our relations with God. By this doctrine Luther opened a fundamental breach between religion and morality, between faith and law, and assigned to each its own distinct sphere of action in which each can attain its end independent of the other. http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08573a.htm Also prevalent in Catholic theology is the importance of the book of James: Of late, however, Catholic exegetes have become more and more convinced that the Epistle in question, so remarkable for its insisting on the necessity of good works, neither aimed at correcting the false interpretations of St. Paul's doctrine, nor had any relation to the teaching of the Apostle of the Gentiles. On the contrary, they believe that St. James had no other object than to emphasize the fact -- already emphasized by St. Paul -- that only such faith as is active in charity and good works possesses any power to justify man whilst faith devoid of charity and good works is a dead faith and in the eyes of God insufficient for justification. http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15030c.htm So I am confused as to your agenda. Clearly you are in more agreement with the Catholics (and SDAs) than the Protestants. So where do your loyalties lie? Are you on the side of the Reformation or of the Catholic church? You may try to avoid the question, but the reality is that there are really only two positions: Either we are saved by trusting in the imputation of the righteousness of Jesus Christ alone, or we base our hope at least in part on something that happens inside of us. Reformers = Justification is being declared righteous by God for the sake of the substitutionary work of Jesus Christ. Catholic (SDA) = Justification is being made righteous. There is no compromise possible. They are mutually exclusive. Sola fide Sola gratia Sola Christe Faith alone Grace alone Christ alone To Christ and to Him only be all glory forever, for He alone is worthy. | ||
| Patti |
If we claim that our witness is our "changed lives," then who among us has a faultless witness? Who among us is willing to offer his/her life for scrutiny as an example of Christ-like living? If we make the claim, we must back it up. If we claim that our testimony is our changed lives, then our lives had better be flawless, or else our testimony is void. | ||
| Max |
Patti, ^^Yes, and the testimony to the cross of our Spirit-filled actions speaks louder than the testimony of words of any person who denies the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. You are saying, then, Max, that your life stands as a greater testimony to Jesus Christ than Paul's words that we are saved by the obedience of Jesus Christ. Do I understand you correctly?^^ No, Patti, I'm saying, Like Paul I am chief of sinners. And I like the writer of Hebrews I'm also saying "By one sacrifice [Christ] has made perfect [i.e., sinless!] forever those" -- such as I -- "who are being made holy." | ||
| Max |
I'm saying I'm both "chief of sinners" AND "sinless in Christ" at the same time. | ||
| Max |
Patti, ^^Faith does not come of observing some- one's changed character, but of hearing of our acceptance with God for the sake of His Son Jesus Christ. And you have offered no scripture that indicates otherwise.^^ Since I've never said, Faith comes of observing someone's changed character, there's no need for me to offer any. | ||
| Max |
Patti, ^^Our witness is not us, our changed lives, our great "love" for our fellow man, our "righteousness."^^ Our witness is not us, but we are Christ's witnesses. Our witness is not our changed lives, but our changed lives witness, not to ourselves, but to the cross. Our witness is not our great love for our fellow human being, but our agape love for our fellow human being witnesses, not to ourselves, but to the cross. Nor have we any righteousness of our own. | ||
| Max |
^^It was not the regenerated characters of the disciples that converted an unbelieving populace; it was the Holy Spirit Who, when indwelling the (sinful) believers, inspired and impelled them to tell others of our secured salvation in Jesus Christ with great vigor.^^ You're not arguing against me, Patti. You're arguing against Scripture: NIV 1 Thessalonians 1:4 For we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you, 5 because our gospel came to you NOT SIMPLY WITH WORDS, BUT ALSO WITH POWER, with the Holy Spirit and with deep conviction. YOU KNOW HOW WE LIVED among you for your sake. 6 YOU BECAME IMITATORS OF US and of the Lord; in spite of severe suffering, you welcomed the message with the joy given by the Holy Spirit. 7 And SO YOU BECAME A MODEL to all the believers in Macedonia and Achaia. 8 The Lord's message RANG OUT FROM YOU not only in Macedonia and Achaia--your faith in God has become known everywhere. Therefore we do not need to say anything about it, 9 for they themselves report what kind of reception you gave us. They tell how YOU TURNED TO GOD from idols to serve the living and true God, 10 and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead--Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath. NIV 2 Thessalonians 3:6 In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, we command you, brothers, to keep away from every brother who is IDLE and DOES NOT LIVE ACCORDING TO THE TEACHING you received from us. 7 For you yourselves know how you ought to follow our EXAMPLE. We were not idle when we were with you, 8 nor did we eat anyone's food without paying for it. On the contrary, we we WORKED night and day, LABORING and TOILING so that we would not be a burden to any of you. 9 We did this, not because we do not have the right to such help, but in order TO MAKE OUR- SELVES A MODEL FOR YOU TO FOLLOW. 10 For even when we were with you, we gave you this rule: "If a man will not work, he shall not eat." 11 We hear that some among you are idle. They are not busy; they are busybodies. 12 Such people we command and urge in the Lord Jesus Christ to SETTLE DOWN and EARN the bread they eat. 13 And as for you, brothers, never tire of DOING what is right. But you are right in saying ^^It was not the regenerated characters of the disciples that converted an unbelieving populace.^^ It was, rather, the TRANSFORMED lives of these people who testified to the cross. | ||
| Max |
^^Indeed, for our loving words and actions ARE the testimony of the cross "to a hungering and thirsting world." Sorry, Max, but our "filthy rags" righteousness could never provide a "witness" to the perfection of Jesus Christ.^^ You're arguing not against me, but against Jesus Christ Himself: NIV Matthew 5:14 "You are the light of the world. A city on a hill cannot be hidden. 15 Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. 16 In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may SEE YOUR GOOD DEEDS and praise [not you, but] your Father in heaven. |
