| Author | Message | ||
| Bskillet Registered user Username: Bskillet Post Number: 485 Registered: 8-2008 |
Here's a tricky question regarding the Old Covenant: Strictly speaking, when exactly did the Old Covenant end? Hint: See Acts 7:41-43, Ex. 32:19. | ||
| Indy4now Registered user Username: Indy4now Post Number: 691 Registered: 2-2008  |
Obviously this is tricky... because I don't know how your verses reconcile with Gal 3:19? Gal 3:19 Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator, until the seed would come to whom the promise had been made. coming from a simple mind...  vivian | ||
| Animal Registered user Username: Animal Post Number: 607 Registered: 7-2008  |
Could it be it ended at His baptism??? | ||
| Bskillet Registered user Username: Bskillet Post Number: 486 Registered: 8-2008 |
On a very strict interpretation, the Isrealites violated the Covenant the moment it was given. God spoke the Decalogue to the Isrealites. They said they couldn't stand to hear God's voice, and instead asked Moses to receive the Law for them. He went up into the mountain, and while he was there, they had Aaron make them the Golden Calf. They thus violated the Covenant Law, the Ten Commandments, which they had previously agreed to keep. What Stephen is saying in Acts 7 is that, from the moment the Law was given, Israel had merited its curse. Stephen used Amos 5 to show that Israel was first condemned to bondage in Babylon because of what they did at Sinai. God told Moses of His displeasure at Israel's idolatry, and Moses said: God kept the Covenant arrangement in force, not because Israel had thus far kept it, but because doing so protected the promise given earlier to the Patriarchs. But there at the foot of Sinai they had denied the Covenant and thus rejected Him. The Old Covenant lasted until Christ, but Israel had merited its curse the moment it was given, so from that point forward, even to the Babylonian captivity, all who had accepted the Law were, from that moment, subject to its curse. What Stephen was saying in Acts 7 was that the Law only ever brought condemnation on Israel, and that it couldn't be any other way, because from the very moment the Covenant Law was given, Israel had broken it and earned its condemnation. Moreover, the Levites who served in the Temple were descended from idolatry. The very first Levite Priest, Aaron, led the Israelites into idolatry at the very dawn of the Old Covenant arrangement. The Temple only stood to remind Israel of their utter condemnation. As I have said before, Acts implies that the speech of Stephen laid the seeds for Paul's theology. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 5324 Registered: 9-2006  |
I would think, strictly speaking, the old covenant ended with the death of Jesus on the cross for it is at that instant the middle wall of partition was rent, the way I understand it. River | ||
| Bskillet Registered user Username: Bskillet Post Number: 490 Registered: 8-2008 |
It extended until Jesus death only because God chose to overlook the Israelites' violation of it in Exodus 32. Otherwise, it would have stopped the moment it started. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 5325 Registered: 9-2006 |
Quote: As I have said before, Acts implies that the speech of Stephen laid the seeds for Paul's theology. While it may imply that, the seeds for Pauls theology is the revelation of Jesus Christ. The reason I say this is that certain people view Pauls writing as a simple theologian to be proved up on somehow, instead of God speaking to us through Paul and therefore Gods own word to us. That is the reason I say that Brent, and in no way to be disagreeable or to pursue small points. Rather than to examine Pauls writing as a theologian, we need to examine Pauls writings as Gods word to us. Paul was chosen by God for this purpose. River | ||
| Bskillet Registered user Username: Bskillet Post Number: 492 Registered: 8-2008 |
River, I agree. My point is simply that Stephen's sermon was part of that revelation, that it was the goad that Paul was kicking against, but that he came to see was reality. When Jesus showed Himself to Paul on the Damascus road (the revelation Paul references in Gal. 1), that meant several things: 1) By trying to achieve righteousness through the Law, Paul had condemned himself to wrath. 2) That is the same thing Stephen demonstrated in Acts 7 about the history of Israel. 3) Stephen was right about the Law and Paul was wrong. 4) The Law was something Paul needed deliverance from, not something he could keep to achieve life. 5) That deliverance came freely in Jesus Christ, by unmerited grace, because Paul had in fact done everything possible to not deserve it. | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 950 Registered: 7-2007 |
It was in force when Moses called Israel together in Deuteronomy 5, when he repeated the Ten Commandments to them; first saying: (verses 2 and 3) "The Lord our God made a covenant with us at Horeb. The Lord did not make this covenant with our fathers, but with us, those who are here today, all of us who are alive." Galatians 3:17-19 says that the law was given 430 years after Abraham and was to be until Christ should come. And then Hebrews 8:13 says the old covenant is obsolete and Hebrews 9:15-17 says that Jesus brought in the new covenant by His death. | ||
| Bskillet Registered user Username: Bskillet Post Number: 497 Registered: 8-2008 |
Yep, it was in force until Christ. But Israel broke it the moment they received it. It was only kept in force because God forgave them for breaking it with the Golden Calf. That's why Moses was given another copy of the Ten C's. | ||
| Handmaiden Registered user Username: Handmaiden Post Number: 87 Registered: 7-2008 |
A person makes a will to convey their wishes upon their death. As time goes by he may or may not make changes to the will. A will is not valid during a person’s LIFE but goes into effect ONLY upon his death. The will is not in effect until the death of the testator. When the testator dies the LAST WILL and TESTAMENT goes into effect and nullifies all previous wills. The New Testament is the LAST WILL and TESTAMENT of the Lord Jesus Christ and became VALID UPON HIS DEATH at Calvary. handmaiden | ||
| Bobj Registered user Username: Bobj Post Number: 432 Registered: 1-2006  |
Good question! Perhaps at the moment the veil was torn? Another line of thinking may arise from Jesus' words in Matt 5:18 which suggest that it has to do with the passing away of the heavens and the earth. In the OT, the term heavens and earth were used to refer to Israel. Adventists have suggested that the law is not the same as the covenant, but this doesn't seem to hold up very well. I'd be interested in learning more about this! Bob | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 10220 Registered: 12-2003  |
It's also significant to me that at the Transfiguration, Jesus instructed Peter, James and John not to tell anyone what they had seen until after His resurrection (Matthew 17 and Mark 9 record this fact). To be sure, the curtain tore at Jesus' death, which certainly marks the ending of the entire OC structure. Yet only after Jesus was resurrected would the Transfiguration make sense and would the application of the new covenant be able to be completed. The disciples weren't to tell about Moses and Elijah disappearing until after Jesus rose from the dead. His miraculous resurrection would certainly validate (or help to validate!) the amazing fact of the new covenant. Moreover, his resurrection was the completion of salvation. Romans 5:9: "Much more then,having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved by His life!" Colleen | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 965 Registered: 7-2007 |
Bob, I agree that what Adventists have suggested about the law not being the same as the covenant, doesn't hold up very well. Especially when there are verses like this: "So He declared to you His covenant which He commanded you to perform, the Ten Commandments; and He wrote them on two tablets of stone." Deuteronomy 4:13 (Now if there are any Adventists reading this, read Hebrews 8:13 which shows that the old covenant is obsolete; and then read Hebrews 9:15,16 and onward where it shows that Jesus brought in a new covenant. And I would like to plead with any Adventists reading this, to ask God to reveal the truth to you! He will if you mean it!) |
