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Seekinglight
Registered user
Username: Seekinglight
Post Number: 328
Registered: 3-2009
| | Posted on Saturday, August 08, 2009 - 2:16 pm: |     |
quote:The mercy seat covers death. (Also the mercy seat represents Jesus.)
Amen! |
Hec
Registered user
Username: Hec
Post Number: 412
Registered: 3-2009
| | Posted on Saturday, August 08, 2009 - 3:22 pm: | |
Have you also noticed that all three things inside the ark represent rebellion?
1. They rebelled against the manna
2. They rebelled against Aaron, thus the test with the rod.
3. They rebelled against the 10C
In each case, the rebellion brought death.
On the other side, the law that was placed on the side of the ark, was the law that brought life. The tablets inside brought death, while the book outside (which supposedly is less important than the tablets inside) brought life (even if in shadow through the sacrifices representing Jesus sacrifice.)
So if I have to chose between "the two laws" I think I'd choose the one who brought life, and since that one was a shadow of Jesus, then I'll take the reality instead of the shadow: JESUS.
Hec |
Asurprise
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Username: Asurprise
Post Number: 958
Registered: 7-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, August 08, 2009 - 5:12 pm: | |
River; what's this you're talking about? Who are you replying too? You act like a person has to be perfect before they can receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit. The apostles weren't perfect - in fact they were full of imperfections, when the Holy Spirit descended upon them. They THEN became bold witnesses for God!
Handmaiden, whom the Lord used to bring me out of the cult of Adventism, prays in tongues. She also has the fruits of the Spirit, such as love toward all people, especially lost souls!
Most of us were taught in the SDA church to be afraid of speaking/praying in tongues. The Lord is patient with us and is teaching us at the rate we can stand. Berating us for being afraid is like berating a two year old for not understanding calculus.
Dianne
P.S. Who's job is it to humble us, the Shepherd's or the sheep's? |
Jrt
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Username: Jrt
Post Number: 732
Registered: 10-2008
| | Posted on Saturday, August 08, 2009 - 5:25 pm: | |
I just read this whole thread in one sitting ...
I feel like I just watched a ping pong match being played on 5 different tables ...
I'm a little lost, but I'm praying, really praying ...
The thread started with a concern about churches. That evangelicals don't get "grace" and right handling of the 10C. That they too still hold onto the 10C ... This is true - but not "always" true ... so we need to be careful ...
I'm concerned about the tenor (the "sound") ... there are people who are born again in evangelical churches and there are some that are not ... We need to be careful how we "judge" our brother's and sister's who are evangelical. Yes, we have knee-jerk reactions. Our guts get all bent out of shape when we hear the ten commandments mentioned or right living ... but when we judge that they don't get "grace" we need to be careful ... Oh, so careful, ... Yes, as former Adventists we have something special to bring to the body of Christ ... but we must remember we are not the head of the body, because we understand "grace" best.
Matthew 13 - read all these parables in one sitting ... speaks to the issue of the kingdom of God and good and bad together. I'm thinking it would be very wise to put on "pause" our judgments about evangelical Christians when interacting with them. This is not to say not to be discerning and lead by the Holy Spirit when interacting with them. We DO need to be discerning.
Another ping-pong table ( ): The LAW or Old Covenant ... I finally realized something as I was talking with my pastor after a small group meeting at his house ... every time I heard law, my mind went to the 10C. Every time he heard law ... he heard all the following; 10C, the laws governing the tabernacle ceremonies, the laws governing the Israelites - including food laws, "medical" diagnosis, etc.
If you look at the history of the time of the Israelites ... covenants between nations had summaries and the 10C were the summary of all the commands to the Israelites. Therefore, the summary of all the commands was placed in the ark of the covenant, and the long hand version (if you please) was placed beside it.
Now, ... River, I want to hear more ... so I hope you weren't offended by Hec (sorry to talk in third person) Hec.
Hec, going to have to call you out on your comment ... pretty brutal comment considering who EGW is and how many of us see her, including River.
quote:The closest I've come in this forum to read a post written in EGW style is the above tirade about the HS by River. For someone who has never-been, you are very good at imitating her style, and her way of thinking.
Imitate her way of thinking ... careful, careful ...
Now, River, I want to hear more ... explain to former SDA's what you mean by baptism of the Holy Spirit ... Is this something that happens beyond when a person becomes born-again and is sealed by the Holy Spirit? Can you explain what you are saying through some scripture texts? I'd like to hear.
What I have found is many former Adventists do not know how to "hear" the Spirit of God on a moment by moment basis ... I don't think any of us has it "moment" by "moment".
Let me see if I can give an example of what I mean ... Lori, (from the forum) just called me - Thank you Lori. She just prayed with me and quoted the same verse of scripture that my pastor's wife quoted to me last night. That is listening to the Spirit and being obedient in the moment ... speaking what came to mind.
So, ... River, I hope you will explain more ...
Keri |
Jrt
Registered user
Username: Jrt
Post Number: 733
Registered: 10-2008
| | Posted on Saturday, August 08, 2009 - 5:31 pm: | |
Deep breathe ...
Slow down ...
Lets ask each other questions and what we mean by " " ... so we don't jump to conclusions that are incorrect. That would include me
I'm praying in my corner ... |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 5340
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, August 08, 2009 - 6:39 pm: | |
Hector,
To compare me with Ellen G. White is about the worse insult you could impose on me or anyone else on this forum. You could call me every fowl name in the book and it wouldn't compare to that.
Ok, I will remain silent.
River |
Jeremy
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Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 2935
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, August 08, 2009 - 7:01 pm: | |
quote:Now, River, I want to hear more ... explain to former SDA's what you mean by baptism of the Holy Spirit ... Is this something that happens beyond when a person becomes born-again and is sealed by the Holy Spirit? Can you explain what you are saying through some scripture texts? I'd like to hear.
Keri,
I don't claim to understand it completely, but the way I understand Scripture (and I believe this is what River is also saying), is that a person does not necessarily receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit when they are born again/sealed by the Holy Spirit. I believe both scenarios are recorded in Acts, where people are baptized in the Holy Spirit right when they first believe and are born again/saved (before they were even baptized in water!), and also where they believed but did not receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit until later. Acts 4:31 also seems to indicate that one can be filled with the Holy Spirit more than once.
In John 7, John writes: "But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified." (John 7:39 NASB.)
And Jesus said in John 14:17: "that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you." (NASB.)
So before the New Covenant, before Jesus' disciples were born again, the Holy Spirit was with them. Then, after Jesus' resurrection, they were indwelt by the Holy Spirit. The Spirit was now in them, and their spirits were brought to life and connected with God's Spirit (born again). On the day of Jesus' Resurrection, when He first appeared to His disciples, the following is recorded by John:
quote:"19So when it was evening on that day, the first day of the week, and when the doors were shut where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in their midst and said to them, 'Peace be with you.'
20And when He had said this, He showed them both His hands and His side The disciples then rejoiced when they saw the Lord.
21So Jesus said to them again, 'Peace be with you; as the Father has sent Me, I also send you.'
22And when He had said this, He breathed on them and said to them, 'Receive the Holy Spirit." (John 20:19-22 NASB.)
So the Spirit had been with them, and now He was in them. But He was still not "upon" them--they still had not been baptized with the Holy Spirit. Right before Jesus ascended, the following happened:
quote:"4Gathering them together, He commanded them not to leave Jerusalem, but to wait for what the Father had promised, 'Which,' He said, 'you heard of from Me;
5for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.'
[...]
8but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth." (Acts 1:4-5, 8 NASB.)
So, there is the sequence of three different works of the Spirit--where He is "with" (drawing you to Jesus), "in" (indwelling you through the new birth), and "upon" (baptism of the Spirit). So I do believe that the baptism of the Spirit is something distinct from being indwelt by the Spirit (although it seems that the baptism can happen right when you are indwelt/born again).
Pastor Mark Martin has some helpful sermons on this, and he also recommends the book Secret Power by D.L. Moody, which is now available online at Google Books. I understand that Moody's book was also influential in Walter Martin's understanding of this issue.
Jeremy
(Message edited by Jeremy on August 08, 2009) |
Jrt
Registered user
Username: Jrt
Post Number: 734
Registered: 10-2008
| | Posted on Saturday, August 08, 2009 - 7:44 pm: | |
Jeremy,
Wow! Thanks for that ... I really appreciate the "walking through the scriptures" this particular topic ... I have actually been wondering about it for some time ...
The fact that Jesus breathed on the disciples, then they were told to wait for the Holy Spirit in Jerusalem ... etc.
I am just amazed that God would reside in me ... It just continues to blow me away ...
Maybe this can't be fully articulated or answered through scripture ... but is the "baptism of the Holy Spirit" for particular "times"/"events"?
Keri |
Grace_alone
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Username: Grace_alone
Post Number: 1551
Registered: 6-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, August 09, 2009 - 7:40 am: | |
Just putting in my two cents as an evangelical and a never-been...
Brent, we don't "hold on" to the 10Cs in the way you think. We certainly don't use them to achieve some kind of righteousness - and I do take offense at that. That's not to say that there aren't those who do, but certainly not all, so please don't make a blanket statement about a group that includes me.
What happens is that it's taken for granted that they were given only to the CoI. I grew up always knowing that, and that only Jews were commanded to keep Sabbath. I knew there was an old covenant and a new one. However, in Sunday School we always had a time when we memorized the 10 Commandments, the Books of the Bible, the names of the apostles, etc. It's just part of the Bible.
I think what happens though, is culturally here in the US, for some odd reason the 10C's are put up in courthouses almost like a Christian symbol. I think this is mostly in the Bible Belt? It causes confusion especially when the ACLU marches in and files lawsuits. The angry Christians come in and look at it as an attack on Christianity, which I believe is misplaced, but still causes others (who may not be grounded in their faith) to get angry as well and feel the need to "protect" the 10 Commandments.
One thing I do think needs to change is the release of the 10C's in general. Outside of it's historical value, I would like to see our culture and our churches let go of it. Along with that, I do agree that the New Covenant should be preached a lot more than it is.
Leigh Anne |
Philharris
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Username: Philharris
Post Number: 1768
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, August 09, 2009 - 8:21 am: | |
Leigh Anne,
If your statement concerning the "10sees" were put in the form of a 'motion', I would 'second' it and put it to the floor for a vote.
All in favor say; "amen"!
Fearless Phil |
Flyinglady
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Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 7333
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, August 09, 2009 - 9:08 am: | |
AMEN!!!
Diana L |
Bskillet
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Username: Bskillet
Post Number: 508
Registered: 8-2008
| | Posted on Sunday, August 09, 2009 - 9:44 am: | |
quote:Brent, we don't "hold on" to the 10Cs in the way you think. We certainly don't use them to achieve some kind of righteousness - and I do take offense at that. That's not to say that there aren't those who do, but certainly not all, so please don't make a blanket statement about a group that includes me.
Leigh Anne, I wasn't talking about you. I'm sorry you thought I was. Perhaps, since you're a "never-been," you aren't as sensitized to the concepts of works righteousness as we formers are, so you don't see the same underlying stoicheion, the basic religious ethos of this world, at work in Evangelicalism. But because we knew it in such an open and unabashed way within Adventism, us formers see it throughout Evangelicalism.
Paul isn't just talking about the Law in his epistles. He refers to both the Law and the pagan religions as the stoicheion of this world, or "the basic principles of this world." Paul is talking about religious obligation, which is endemic to our flesh and is what keeps us from accepting the grace of God. The grace of God alone is capable of saving us, both of justifying us (Titus 3:7) and of sanctifying us (Titus 2:11-13).
Religious obligation cannot make someone holy. If someone reads his Bible because he thinks of it as a religious act that God will honor, that person is still living by the stoicheion of this world. The Law was given according to the stoicheion, to prove that the stoicheion cannot solve humanity's problems.
See, we formers have experienced a level of spiritual bondage that you and many others in Evangelicalism have never known. And we see the same principles--the stoicheion--that lead to spiritual bondage, at work in Evangelicalism. How many Evangelicals struggle silently with legalism and religious obligation, never feeling fully accepted or loved by God? Why is it that when books come out like What's So Amazing About Grace?, they become instant best sellers in the Evangelical world? Could it be that, in many circles of Evangelicalism, there is an underlying pain of un-grace that needs to be soothed?
Y mentioned people trying to get them put in courthouses. Leigh Anne, I don't think those aren't Jews trying to do that, and it isn't just in the south that Evangelicals talk about it as part of the "culture war," as if culture could ever make someone righteous before God.
Adventists didn't invent the idea that the 10 C's are "God's eternal moral law." They got that from Evangelicals, and Evangelicals teach that to this day. You want to tick off a good Bible-thumping conservative Evangelical? Give him a quote from Jon Zens or John Reisinger about the Ten Commandments, and watch the accusations of "antinomian!" start flying.
Even if the particular commands in the 10 C's aren't the basis, there is still an ethos of works righteousness throughout most of modern Evangelical Christianity. I hear it all the time, for instance, on Moody radio here in Chicago. Everything is focused on what practices we can do to be more spiritual or be more holy or whatever.
Quite often, that ethic comes through in, "You have to study your Bible for X minutes every day, or else you won't ever have a relationship with God."
Or, "You have to sit in a pew once a week, or you won't be able to have a relationship with God."
Or, "You have to help out in your church's ministry, or else you'll never have a relationship with God."
Or, "You have to be out bringing people into the church..."
I hear this kind of thing all the time, not just from Adventists, but from Evangelicals as well.
On a road trip from Asheville, NC, back to Chicago, I passed a church in Kentucky with a sign that said, "Tithe if you love Jesus. Anyone can honk." That statement didn't come out of anywhere. It reflects an underlying ethic of righteousness by works. And that church makes it clear exactly why. The reason they demand people to tithe is so they can build up their church really big and have a really nice building and generally show off their prideful religiosity. They don't have a clue what the Bible teaches about tithe. They're just like what Paul said of the Judaizers: They want to "make a good showing in the flesh" (Gal. 6:12).
All of this is so that the son of the bondwoman, the clergymen or pastors of these kinds of congregations, can have a fancy car and a lot of power over people and so forth. It's no coincidence that the last three of the four statements I mentioned above, deal with building up a corporate institution that we mistakenly call "the church."
Just because Evangelicals don't call it the 10 C's, doesn't mean it isn't the same basic concept. They even talk about living by "New Covenant principles," as if the point of the New Covenant is to give us a set of principles to live by to make us holy, rather than giving us the Spirit whom we live to in love. Why is it so easy to peel off Evangelicals into things like Adventism or Word-Faith? Because they already receive an intro in that kind of thinking from the so many Evangelical churches.
Why, even in Evangelical churches, do the little kids sing that demonicly-inspired song "Be careful little eyes what you see, be careful little eyes what you see, 'cause the Father up above is looking down in love (?), so be careful little eyes what you see." The ethic behind that song is that we had better do just the right stuff, or God's love is going to turn to anger and He's going to start breathing fire down on us. That isn't the God who willingly took our curse for us on the Cross and put it away forever.
Leigh Anne, the problem isn't centrally the 10 C's. That is the symptom of a greater problem, which is that somewhere along the way, Evangelicals got the idea that the Gospel is a religion, just a different expression of the stoicheion of this world. |
Seekinglight
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Username: Seekinglight
Post Number: 329
Registered: 3-2009
| | Posted on Sunday, August 09, 2009 - 9:54 am: | |
Various individuals have had these same critiques about American Christianity (Bonhoeffer is just one example). These critiques did not originate with the "formers" and the critiques shoudn't be an excuse for formers not to find a church to fellowship it. It's just that we as formers may want to be a little more discerning to make sure the churches we attend have Biblical theology and are not simply preaching "ethics & morals with the name of Jesus attached". ...and both liberal and conservative Christianity have been guilty of this. |
Animal
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Username: Animal
Post Number: 614
Registered: 7-2008
| | Posted on Sunday, August 09, 2009 - 1:10 pm: | |
I want to confess that I dont understand this subject very well. I dont need to. A child of God dont need to understand all that is in scripture.That takes the pressure off me !!. WHO I know... "JESUS" ...is the important thing. As I have stated many times on this forum.....
" The beauty of the Gospel is its simplicity"
If a child was reading this thread, would the child be enlightened and blessed, or would the child be confused?? The purpose of the church is not to confuse the lost but to win them to CHRIST.
Let us strive to keep the Gospel message SIMPLE so others may come to a saving knowledge of Jesus.
Fancy words dont impress me at all. Complicated doctrines are a waste of my time.
But "Jesus loves me this I know"..Thats what the world needs to hear!!!
...Animal...keep it simple |
8thday
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Username: 8thday
Post Number: 1120
Registered: 11-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, August 09, 2009 - 1:21 pm: | |
Yeah, this thread has turned into five different ping pong matches - you are right Keri.
My original question was pretty much just a technical one - and thanks Brian for clarifying what you meant. It just seems that there is this recurring need to elevate the 10C over the rest of the law and this is a repeating pattern I find in many places. The ONLY reason I care is because when people misunderstand the nature of the law, they tend to confuse the covenants and leave people open to SDA and HRM deceptions. That is all. If I sounded arrogant or whatever.. I am sorry - just get really frustrated that no one anywhere I go seems to really understand it.
River, it takes me a long time to write a post with a million interruptions here, so even though mine was posted AFTER your HS post, I had not read yours and didn't know you had posted at all. I have to say I agree with the whole entire thing as far as your point is concerned, but a little patience with us would be good. You have no idea how terrified formers are of what you are talking about. It has taken me 16 years to really even come to understand and believe the simple Word of God regarding this too - not just the Covenants. Some of us are sloooow learners.
My admission to believing in a baptism in the Spirit after being born again recently resulted in me being very angrily accused of an occultic heresy by a person who goes to my church NOW. Thankfully, we got over it and still love each other, but a former leaves Adventism with a great deal of fear about these things. To add fuel to this fear are the abuses and excesses within many "Spirit-filled" churches that make a mockery of the Spirit of God. For someone that is struggling to understand the Word of God at all.. this is so confusing.
Brent - yes I know exactly what you are talking about. It's an ingrained mindset. However, I still feel a need to be involved in churches in spite of their not understanding this. I can serve, love people, and people are still being born again in spite of what isn't understood. I think we can bring clarity on some things if others are willing to listen, but even if they don't - I have to be plugged in. In fact, we are not just going to one church - we are involved in two, and maybe adding a third. My son said, we don't change churches, we add to the list that we go to. We are ONE body and we can share, cooperate, and learn from one another. If I can help bring factions together, that would be awesome. Even the ones who refuse to believe there is a HS baptism, like my dear friend, are still believers and loved of God. God works in them and through them in spite of their ill-informed prejudice. It's the prejudices against each other that are hurting us so much.
I won't go into the other points - too much static here, but appreciate the feedback at any rate. I really do. That's why I put my ideas up here sometimes - to get a reality check. |
Hec
Registered user
Username: Hec
Post Number: 415
Registered: 3-2009
| | Posted on Sunday, August 09, 2009 - 2:27 pm: | |
River, et al,
My comparing you with EGW has nothing to do with your character, only the style of writing. When I read EGW I felt whipped, that's her style, and when I read your post about the baptism of the HS I felt whipped. It was like, "you better take this or...
I apologize for any insult you might have taken. None was intended. I love you just the same, and hope you don't stop loving and praying for me.
Hec
PS: Some of us use "niks" because we are not ready to reveal our ID to the world. I hope that when we don't agree on something, that is not taken by those who know our identities as authorization to reveal peoples identities
(Message edited by hec on August 09, 2009) |
Asurprise
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Username: Asurprise
Post Number: 962
Registered: 7-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, August 09, 2009 - 5:40 pm: | |
Jrt; I don't know much at all about the baptism of the Holy Spirit. With the person whom the Lord used to bring me out of Adventism; it was a year AFTER she was saved, before she was baptized with the Holy Spirit.
As for myself, I don't think I've received the baptism. Now everyone is SEALED with the Holy Spirit when they are saved (Eph. 1:13,14), but I didn't even sense His Presence, until after I asked the Lord for the Holy Spirit some months after I was saved.
And I NEVER SENSED His Presence when I was an Adventist. I didn't think such a thing was possible! I had no clue that Christians sense the Presence of the Holy Spirit - not ALL the time necessarily but often and sometimes really strongly!
Anyway, when I finally asked God for the Holy Spirit, I did so reluctantly because of what I had been taught as an Adventist. God really is a gentleman and He isn't pushy with us. |
River
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Username: River
Post Number: 5344
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, August 09, 2009 - 9:36 pm: | |
Is everybody through chewing on me for that post yet?
River |
River
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Username: River
Post Number: 5345
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, August 09, 2009 - 10:00 pm: | |
Are we going to make up or break up?
I quite agree with Leigh Anne, most the churches don't make a big deal about the 10 C's. Never enters into the equation with a grace driven church.
River |
Skeeter
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Username: Skeeter
Post Number: 194
Registered: 12-2007
| | Posted on Monday, August 10, 2009 - 9:06 am: | |
I aint mad at ya River :-)
We all need a chance to vent sometimes and just let it all out. You did that very well.:-)
I might not always agree 100% with everything I read on here.. but I still respect your right to believe as you do and just because God has put something on your heart that he has not put on mine does not mean he loves any of us any more or less... I just think he communicates to each of us as individuals and while he puts something on your heart or gives you certain gifts and not another.. maybe it isnt that others arent willing to accept those gifts.. but maybe God has different gifts for some than he does for others.. God has never (as of yet anyway) given me the gift of tongues, probably because I am not in a position where that gift could be of benefit to others or to in any way Glorify God. I don't know that I have any real gift except to
love and care for my family my Mom, my Husband , my Children and my Grandchildren. I keep trying to reach my MIL who is still very entrenched in SDA and give hope to my sister's in law and hoping at least some information (some that I glean from here) is getting through to help them to see that just because they are no longer SDA that they still have a responsibility to our Lord and they should not deny themselves going to any church they choose out of fear of upsetting their Mom ! As much as I love my MIL,,,, God's opinion is much more important than her opinion!
The more I learn about the real TRUTH about EGW and the SDA church the more HORRIFIED I am that I could have ever been involved with it at all. |
Hec
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Username: Hec
Post Number: 422
Registered: 3-2009
| | Posted on Monday, August 10, 2009 - 11:57 am: | |
(((((((((((((((((((River)))))))))))))))))))
Hec |
Pnoga
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Username: Pnoga
Post Number: 270
Registered: 1-2007
| | Posted on Monday, August 10, 2009 - 3:01 pm: | |
Another note on the 10 Words. They were God's work not ours. When Old Covenat Israel rejected the Covenant they did so by rejecting Jesus. He is the stone that the builders rejected.
Exo 32:16 And the tables were the WOKR OF GOD, and the writing was the writing of God, graven upon the tables.
Deu 32:4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.
Psa 64:9 And all men shall fear, and shall declare the work of God; for they shall wisely consider of his doing.
Ecc 7:13 Consider the work of God: for who can make that straight, which he hath made crooked?
Ecc 8:17 Then I beheld all the work of God, that a man cannot find out the work that is done under the sun: because though a man labour to seek it out, yet he shall not find it; yea further; though a wise man think to know it, yet shall he not be able to find it.
Jer 51:10 The LORD hath brought forth our righteousness: come, and let us declare in Zion the work of the LORD our God.
Joh 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
Joh 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
Paul |
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