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Message |
Insearch
Registered user
Username: Insearch
Post Number: 2
Registered: 7-2009
| | Posted on Saturday, July 25, 2009 - 5:59 am: |     |
If I haven't been a faithful tithe-payer, will God leave me? Does he only bless if we pay tithe? I know we should give to him, and it relates to our heart, and even reflects what we're like in other ways. But would he withhold himself from me?
We've recently left the SDA church, and lost our jobs because of it. As a result, we're afraid of losing our home. We are so tight, financially. Would it really get miraculously better if we paid tithe? |
Animal
Registered user
Username: Animal
Post Number: 585
Registered: 7-2008
| | Posted on Saturday, July 25, 2009 - 6:17 am: | |
If you are His child, God promises to never leave or forsake you. Giving to the gospel work was never meant to be a burden to believers in Christ. God will never withold Himself from anyone who loves Him(Rom8). If you give from your heart,He will accept that offering and richly bless you.
Animal |
Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 7277
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, July 25, 2009 - 6:30 am: | |
Insearch, after my name was taken off the church books, I still paid tithe for a while. When I did I had to pay late fees. I decided not to pay tithe and guess what, God did not strike me dead. He kept me in good jobs. He blessed me anyway. When I attended church it was to the SDA church as I did not know any better. If you cannot give anything, God understands. Talk to Him about it. He understood my prayers and my decisions.
Diana L |
Bskillet
Registered user
Username: Bskillet
Post Number: 471
Registered: 8-2008
| | Posted on Saturday, July 25, 2009 - 6:45 am: | |
Tithe was part of the Old Covenant Levitical system. It was only paid out of the fruit of the flock and of the field. It was meant to support the Levites.
In the New Covenant, the Levites have been done away with. The entire Temple system is gone. There is no New Covenant tithe, because Jesus canceled the Law by nailing it to the Cross.
The SDA system claims it is the Levites, but as Hebrews 7 makes clear, the Levites have been done away with, so in claiming they are the modern Levites, they are claiming they have no right to exist. Do not pay tithe to them.
There is no record of tithe being paid in Christian communities until the 8th or 9th century. In fact, there was no paid clergy for the first and portions of the second century, AD, so there would have been no one to receive it.
In Europe, the Catholic church had become a huge landowner. The common European agricultural land leasing contracts set as rent the payment of 10% of the crop every year. The Catholic church followed suit, and then read back the tithe requirement into their practice in order to justify what they were doing. Tithe was later extended to everyone. Viola's book Pagan Christianity highlights the development of tithe in Christian circles.
It is unbiblical for the New Covenant Christian, who has been adopted as God's child, to be forced to pay rent to live in God's household. In fact, it was this principle that Jesus appealed to when He asked Peter if sons would be required to pay the Temple tax. |
Bskillet
Registered user
Username: Bskillet
Post Number: 472
Registered: 8-2008
| | Posted on Saturday, July 25, 2009 - 7:15 am: | |
BTW, because only landowners and shepherds paid tithe, it was never paid by what you might call "the poor." Rather, they were one of the recipients of tithe funds. This is the exact opposite of how it is practiced in SDAism, and other denominations, where the poor are told to pay tithe no matter what, and that tithe is given to clergy and administrators who make 3-4 times what a poor person might make. The fact that, in those systems, poor Christians are told to pay tithe, rather than receive help from the church, shows the utter moral bankruptcy of such systems. They do not know the Lord they claim to serve. |
Dennis
Registered user
Username: Dennis
Post Number: 1738
Registered: 4-2000
| | Posted on Saturday, July 25, 2009 - 7:59 am: | |
Insearch,
There never was a monetary tithe in Old Testament times. Tithe was mandated only from crops and animals. James White was right when he called it an "Israelitish" practice. Another largely overlooked and/or ignored aspect of tithing in our economy is the issue of unequal sacrifice. For example, a tither earning merely $10,000.00 per year has a much greater financial burden for the basic needs of life than the tither earning $100,000.00 per year (even flat tax proponents and the IRS allow an exemption for low income). Old Testament tithing codes made provision for public welfare, temple maintenance, support for priests and other professional personnel, theocratic government expenses, festal celebrations, etc.
It is most surprising to many Christians that a large segment of the Hebrew people did not tithe at all. For example, farm hands did not tithe. Furthermore, occupations like fishermen, construction workers, lumbermen, weavers, handicraft workers, miners, merchandisers, and manufacturers were also exempt from tithing. The honest, objective student of Scripture will find it impossible to practice the various versions of tithing recorded during different time frames in the Old Testament. Even modern Orthodox Jews realize the futility of adhering to the tithing institution without having an ongoing sacrificial system in place. Rabbinical canonists prohibited tithing after the destruction of the second temple in A. D. 70.
Perhaps you are familiar with many stories in Adventist books and magazines claiming the promises of Malachi 3 for our day and circumstance. Exciting stories abound from pen and pulpit of how God miraculously intervened exclusively for the honest tithe payer. For example, accounts depict a summer hailstorm that devastated all the crops in a certain area bu stopped short at the tither's fields. Claiming such promises and miracles, why would a farmer even think of buying crop insurance? Better yet, why would the General Conference operate an insurance corporation for charging premiums to their various church entities throughout the world? Why would a local church board find it financially sound to insure their church structure from any losses?
Jesus said, "He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and unrighteous" (Matt. 5:45 NIV). The Gospel does not include making "principles" out of Old Covenant rituals. Why, then, make tithing a principle bujt not all the Old Covenant directives? Importantly, Old Covnenant tithing is NOT mandated anywhere in the New Testament. Interestingly, it was Dudley Canright, Adventism's most notable heretic, that championed the current doctrine of tithing in the mid-1870s. Thus, the SDA Church owes a ton of gratitude to the late Dudley Canright for filling their coffers with compulsory giving. Before Canright's actions, from 1859 to the late 1870s, Adventists did not have a doctrine on tithing as it is known today; instead, they advocated a plan known as "systematic benevolence." It was designed for church members from 18 to 60 years of age that owned property. Also, men and women had different rate schedules for suggested giving. Ellen White gave this plan her full endorsement. At first, local SDA churches had complete control of the SB funds; however, the growing church hierarchy soon seized upon such liberties.
In our day there is meaning in regular proportionate grace giving without the shackles of the Law. Christian stewardship concerns itself with more than just giving of a person's material resources. It includes giving yourself, your time, and your talent in service to the Lord. The apostle Paul admonished that "Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver" (2 Corinthians 9:7 NIV). The Gospel breeds generosity wherever it takes root. With Spirit-led giving, the Christian no longer yearns for the ritual laws of Moses to finance the Great Commission.
Dennis Fischer
(Message edited by Dennis on July 25, 2009)
(Message edited by Dennis on July 25, 2009)
(Message edited by Dennis on July 25, 2009) |
Skeeter
Registered user
Username: Skeeter
Post Number: 145
Registered: 12-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, July 25, 2009 - 8:46 am: | |
AMEN !
Even while an "active SDA" I did not pay "tithe" after about the first year. I noticed early on that most who paid "tithe" or other offerings put their checks or cash into envelopes and marked what amounts they wanted to go for specific things.. Tithe, Sabbath School funds, Church expense, missionary work, etc.
That way at the end of the year they get a receipt from the church that they can deduct off their taxes.
For some reason I just never felt that was right.
So I did then as I do today... when I attend a church I put into the offering plate what ever amount (in cash) I feel I can afford to put in. I try to be as generous as possible.
I do NOT claim any of it on my taxes (I am not saying there is anything wrong with it if anyone wants to claim on their taxes as a deduction, I just choose not to)
I do not think it is anyone in the church finance department's business how much I put in the offering plate. God knows and I know and it is no one elses business. (IMO)
When I attend church with my son's family (a non Denominational affiliated Church of Christ) Before they take the offering they ALWAYS announce that they are NOT soliciting funds from those who are not members of their church.
I am not a member of that church, but I always try to give a generous offering when I go there because I always enjoy their studies and sermons .They go book by book ,chapter by chapter and verse by verse through the Bible and after coming out of SDAism,I appreciate that. |
Insearch
Registered user
Username: Insearch
Post Number: 3
Registered: 7-2009
| | Posted on Saturday, July 25, 2009 - 8:50 am: | |
Flying Lady, what do you mean by paying "late fees?" |
Bskillet
Registered user
Username: Bskillet
Post Number: 473
Registered: 8-2008
| | Posted on Saturday, July 25, 2009 - 9:07 am: | |
quote:In our day there is meaning in regular proportionate grace giving without the shackles of the Law. Christian stewardship concerns itself with more than just giving of a person's material resources. It includes giving yourself, your time, and your talent in service to the Lord. The apostle Paul admonished that "Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver" (2 Corinthians 9:7 NIV). The Gospel breeds generosity wherever it takes root. With Spirit-led giving, the Christian no longer yearns for the ritual laws of Moses to finance the Great Commission.
Amen! Also, in Paul's solicitation of funds from his churches, it is important to remember what this was for. There had been a famine in the Israel, that had resulted in severe economic hardship on the people there. In addition, the Greek world was wealthier than the Jewish world, and the Jewish world had to deal with much higher tax rates, because they had to pay temple taxes on top of harsh Roman taxes. Paul hoped that, buy collecting money from the wealthier Gentile Greek brethren and bringing it to give to the poor Jewish Christians in Israel, he could help repair some of the animosity of the Jewish Christians towards their Gentile brethren.
My point is this: When Paul asked for money from the churches, it was not even for his own ministry. He was clear that the only church he allowed to give to his ministry was the church at Phillipi. It was to help poor people in Judea and Galilee. And on top of that, Paul explicitly said of his requests, "I am not saying this as a command."
As I said, we are God's children. We do not have to pay rent to live in His household, but the Spirit can and will lead us to give at various times, and perhaps even systematically. But it must flow out of the faith intimacy we have with God. Otherwise, it is an abomination to God (Rom. 14:23).
There is no hard and fast rule for every Christian, because every Christian is in a different place and the Spirit uses every Christian differently. But above all, the greatest giving is what is given to the poor, not to heirarchies or bureaucracies, which didn't really exist in the Apostolic age.
Jesus didn't instruct the sheep to feed Peter, but Peter to feed the sheep. |
Insearch
Registered user
Username: Insearch
Post Number: 5
Registered: 7-2009
| | Posted on Saturday, July 25, 2009 - 9:28 am: | |
Wow! I can see so many of your points! I have seen many conference personnel staying at fancy hotels for meetings, and eating a nice places and writing it off as a business expense. How many tithe-payers get to do this fancy stuff.
As teachers, we spent hours, 6 days a week, at the expense of spending time with our children. We were told to be "missionary-minded" about our work.
True, we had no problem being missionary-minded, but that shouldn't be at the expense of our children! I know that Pastors get paid more than teachers. Not sure why... My husband thought that part of what we gave to the church was our time and talents, but I was unsure. I was afraid of not paying.
And Dennis, my husband has had the same thoughts about someone earning 10,000 that pays tithe, vs someone who earns 100,000. Makes sense. |
Indy4now
Registered user
Username: Indy4now
Post Number: 674
Registered: 2-2008
| | Posted on Saturday, July 25, 2009 - 9:36 am: | |
Welcome Insearch!
I missed your first post somewhere. Great question. Stick around and post much!
~vivian |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 5255
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, July 25, 2009 - 10:03 am: | |
Many of the churches today advocate tithing, some are just raised up in it, some use it as a hammer to drive money off the backs of the poor to fill their coffers, some are ignorant of Bible theology.
Whatever the reason, it causes trusting Christians to be in confusion because, in spite of paying a tithe, many times the money situation becomes worse for them and they end up saying,"I paid a tithe as the Bible teaches and yet misfortune continues to befall me." But they are not going according to what the Bible teaches as far as I can see.
The practical aspects of it, I think, is that many Christians whom are convinced by clergy to pay a tithe end up deluded and confused.
I wouldn't go as far as to say the tithe payer does not know the Lord, that seems to be stretching it a bit far.
But I do think if you pay a tithe thinking that will straighten everything out, you may be a bit disapointed, but it's your dime.
River |
Gcfrankie
Registered user
Username: Gcfrankie
Post Number: 531
Registered: 1-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, July 25, 2009 - 11:01 am: | |
As an adventist I also paid tithe but then learned that all of the money that went into tithe envelopes goes to the GC for their pet projects and to pay the pastors. As I understand it all pastors are paid the same whether they have one or several churches they attend to and none is given back for individual church maintaince, you would have to take a loan from the conference for that. Lose change that was given is what the church had to operate on which was not very much so I would put my tithe in loose change. I one time had a pastor confront me about not paying tithe and I told him I pay it but put it in loose change to help support the church and he informed me that the loose change is to be above the tithe payment and I responded that God knows where my heart is and that is all that is important and walked away.
The church I am going to now all the money stays in the church and covers all expenses. Our congregation is not big but God has sure blessed us.
As Diana says take it to God in prayer about this issue and he will show you what he wants you to do.
Gail |
Hec
Registered user
Username: Hec
Post Number: 381
Registered: 3-2009
| | Posted on Saturday, July 25, 2009 - 12:21 pm: | |
Insearch,
Welcome to the Forum!
Hec |
Asurprise
Registered user
Username: Asurprise
Post Number: 921
Registered: 7-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, July 25, 2009 - 1:40 pm: | |
Yes, welcome Insearch!!! 
It took me a year or two, after God led me out of that false church, to find out that tithing wasn't in the new covenant. (New Testament) |
Dennis
Registered user
Username: Dennis
Post Number: 1739
Registered: 4-2000
| | Posted on Saturday, July 25, 2009 - 1:52 pm: | |
The August, 2009 edition of the Association of Adventist Forums (AAF) newsletter reports:
* In terms of real earning power, the average citizen and family in North America is much richer than it was 50 years ago.
* In spite of general economic prosperity, the North American Division is getting poorer. The average tithe/member, as a share of per-capita GDP in the U. S. has declined from 4.6% in 1960 down to 1.9% at present.
* In 1970, at minimum wage, it would require a student 28 weeks of labor to pay the typical annual tuition of a 4-year college. In 2007, annual tuition required 133 weeks of labor at minimum wage. That's nearly two and a half years.
* College enrollment per 1,000 population in the U.S. has grown from 30 in 1955 to 60 in 2006. The Adventist school system has not replicated this trend.
* While total enrollment for NAD Adventist colleges has risen, the number of students per 1,000 members has declined from 40 in 1969 to 24 presently.
* Total annual cost (tuition, room, and board) for attending a private college in the U.S. has risen from $11,000 in 1970 to $32,000 in 2006 (adjusted for inflation, in 2000 dollars). Adventist colleges have followed this trend.
* Did the NAD education system expand beyond the ability to find good (SDA) faculty? What constitutes "good"?
* Should non-Adventist faculty be employed in Adventist schools? If so, under what conditions?
* How culturally isolated from the surrounding community should an Adventist college be?
* So, what is the solution? It is almost certain that some SDA schools will close--whether closed deliberately or catastrophically.
Dennis Fischer
(Message edited by Dennis on July 25, 2009) |
Insearch
Registered user
Username: Insearch
Post Number: 7
Registered: 7-2009
| | Posted on Saturday, July 25, 2009 - 2:21 pm: | |
And our daughter is convinced that she should attend the nearest SDA college next year, to be at a "Christian college." We certainly can't afford it! Thanks for the research! |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 10163
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, July 25, 2009 - 6:41 pm: | |
When Richard worked at the North Pacific Union Conference office right after graduating from PUC, he was shocked to discover that tithe funds paid for the new fitness club with machines and all the trimmings which was on the campus of the Conference Office and was for the use of the Conference employees—at least of the officers. The rationale was, it seems, that the fitness club benefitted the clergy in the administration of the conference, so using tithe funds was logical.
Welcome, Insearch! And just one word about the "Christian college" aspect...at this point, I would not place Adventist colleges in that category. They claim to be Christian, but they are Adventist. The doctrines and theology taught are not "Christian"; they are Adventist, and the people teaching the classes are people who do not understand being born again--the requirement, Jesus told Nicodemus, for entering the kingdom of heaven.
There is a surprising difference between an Adventist and a Christian campus.
Colleen |
Bskillet
Registered user
Username: Bskillet
Post Number: 474
Registered: 8-2008
| | Posted on Sunday, July 26, 2009 - 6:18 am: | |
quote:When Richard worked at the North Pacific Union Conference office right after graduating from PUC, he was shocked to discover that tithe funds paid for the new fitness club with machines and all the trimmings which was on the campus of the Conference Office and was for the use of the Conference employees—at least of the officers. The rationale was, it seems, that the fitness club benefitted the clergy in the administration of the conference, so using tithe funds was logical.
There is a reason the SDA heirarchy has never assented to being audited by an independent external auditor. If anyone think buying a few fitness machines is the limit of their misappropriation, I suspect they are very mistaken. |
8thday
Registered user
Username: 8thday
Post Number: 1101
Registered: 11-2007
| | Posted on Monday, July 27, 2009 - 12:15 pm: | |
Welcome Insearch!! Glad you have joined us!!
We have recently broken away from the "tithe" principle. I wish it was in the upward direction, but unfortunately.. it's the other way. We decided this needs to be Spirit-led, just like everything else in the New Covenant. My desire to give far exceeds my ability. Our income has dropped, but our expenses have increased in the last year. There simply isn't anywhere for it to come from. I appreciate that God can honor people's simple faith and trust in Him when they truly and ignorantly believe this is how they should obey God. We however were no longer cheerful givers, but burdened and fearful ones. I am praying for more trust in the area of our finances and to be thankful for what we CAN give.. though it's not much at this time.
That being said... we as Americans are very spoiled with alot of things we think we have to have but could definitely live without. (speaking to self here also) If our hearts really burn to give, we would learn to sacrifice and go without so others could be blessed. I must admit I'm motivated to do that much more for persecuted destitute believers and native missionary programs than I am a monstrous church budget... just me.
We recently heard a pastor speak from India. He has been in ministry for many years and has an extensive teaching/writing ministry. I discovered after the weekend that he takes NO salary from his home church, makes no money off the books he has written, and no offering was taken up for his ministry the ENTIRE weekend. He is a "tentmaker" servant of God, and I realized this is one reason he is able to speak candidly about so many things. He does not serve the money, but God.
Bskillet, I foud your historical info VERY interesting! Thanks! |
Joyfulheart
Registered user
Username: Joyfulheart
Post Number: 644
Registered: 10-2006
| | Posted on Monday, July 27, 2009 - 3:10 pm: | |
Hi Insearch,
You might be interested in reading these links from the truth or fables web site. These were what finally convinced me that I did not have to tithe. Ironically, I am now giving more than I used to - and with a heart of joy not under compulsion. If I don't happen to give as much one month, I don't feel quilty anymore. Hope these links help!
http://truthorfables.com/Tithe_Trial_P_Jones.htm
http://truthorfables.com/Tithe_Test.htm
There is also a section called Should the church teach tithing, but I can't make the link work. Try going to www.truthorfables.com and scroll down to the tithe section.
Again, welcome to the forum!
Joyfulheart |
Insearch
Registered user
Username: Insearch
Post Number: 13
Registered: 7-2009
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 28, 2009 - 1:32 pm: | |
Joyfulheart, thanks for the links.
8thday, you said, "We however were no longer cheerful givers, but burdened and fearful ones. I am praying for more trust in the area of our finances and to be thankful for what we CAN give.. though it's not much at this time."
I can so understand the burdened, fearful feelings. Our conference president came and spoke with us because he found out that we had slacked off on our tithe. Previous to that, he always greeted us warmly and expressed how glad he was to have us working for the conference. After that, he would never look us in the eyes or greet us the same. The Educ superintendent said, "Well, it's the only spiritual measuring stick that we have. We need to know that we have teachers of faith representing God to our kids."
works, works, works... |
Animal
Registered user
Username: Animal
Post Number: 588
Registered: 7-2008
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 28, 2009 - 1:55 pm: | |
"the only spiritual measuring stick that we have"
Sounds like Big Brother to me..how about you??? |
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