| Author | Message | ||
| Akweavers Registered user Username: Akweavers Post Number: 167 Registered: 8-2008 |
Can anyone give me a short, easy to understand way to tell someone that knowing you are saved does not mean you can do anything you want no matter what it is and still get to heaven. At least that is not what I believe?? Do any of you? | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 933 Registered: 7-2007 |
When a person is saved and has the Holy Spirit living inside them, sinning is like eating vomit to them. It simply is repulsive! A person's whole set of likes and dislikes just changes. It's not at all that they "try" to like the good things and hate the bad things. There is such a DIFFERENCE! It's not a "goody-two-shoes" attitude at all! | ||
| Handmaiden Registered user Username: Handmaiden Post Number: 72 Registered: 7-2008 |
Shall we sin all the more that grace may abound ??? GOD FORBID!!!!!!!!! How shall we who have died to sin LIVE ANY LONGER IN IT. We are saved unto good works not By good works. We are reconciled to God to live Godly lives...we are NEW creatures IN Christ. Romans chapter six short answer handmaiden | ||
| Akweavers Registered user Username: Akweavers Post Number: 168 Registered: 8-2008 |
Thanks to you both. Those answers are what I was lookng for. | ||
| Seekinglight Registered user Username: Seekinglight Post Number: 298 Registered: 3-2009 |
Here's the question I'm getting from SDA folks in my exit process. I'm trying to see things from their point of view. For example, when I give up the Sabbath, to them, it's the same as committing murder. It's unfathomable to them how a 'saved' person can openly break a holy commandment and still claim to be right with God. It's like someone killing people and enjoying it/praising God while doing it. It's utter blasphemy to them. And my explanations from Hebrews 3-4 and from 2 Corinthians 3 are doing no good. I've read Sabbath in Christ, and I understand the truth of the Sabbath now, but it still hurts me that my family views me this way. I must constantly surrender this issue to the Lord. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 5274 Registered: 9-2006  |
Well hang in there Seekinglight, cheer up, it will probably get worse.  River | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 5275 Registered: 9-2006 |
Are you sure you are trying to see things from their point of view? Or are you trying to see things from their point of emotion? River | ||
| Jeremiah Registered user Username: Jeremiah Post Number: 436 Registered: 1-2004  |
I think Seekinglight stated the problem perfectly! My personal answer is to let them believe what they want, since there's no way to change it anyway. God will have to demonstrate to them through life experience that their religion does not work, and then maybe they might feel a need and open their mind and heart. Jeremiah | ||
| Gcfrankie Registered user Username: Gcfrankie Post Number: 536 Registered: 1-2007 |
Seekinglight, I agree with Jeremy. You have done all you can do by showing them in Gods' word. At this point I would tell them you love them very much but they have their beliefs and you have yours and since you can not agree on anything that the best thing to do is leave it alone and not discuss it any further before hurtful things are said and can not be taken back and then completely let go and through prayer let God work on them. The hard part is letting go completely as we want to fix things. Have you read the poem 'Let Go and Let God'? If not and you want a copy of it you can e-mail me at gcfrankie@yahoo.com. Gail | ||
| Seekinglight Registered user Username: Seekinglight Post Number: 299 Registered: 3-2009 |
Yes, Gail & Jere, you are right. I cannot convince them of anything. I guess I'm just beginning to notice the tenacity of the "Sabbath stronghold". It's worse than I had first thought. When I first started "breaking the Sabbath" I asked God to please let me know if I was sinning against Him. I promised that if He showed me, I would go back to keeping it again. I felt safe enough with Him that I knew I wouldn't lose my salvation, while we figured things out together--even if I was breaking His commandment. So far, God has not convicted me to go back to keeping it. Well, I cannot expect my loved ones to follow what has worked for me. It just makes me sad that they see me on par with a willful murder/stealer/adulterer b/c I don't keep the Sabbath the way they think I should. Nothing like breaking out of a cult to cure me of my people-pleasing ways! One cannot be too afraid of disapproval when leaving this system. | ||
| Freeatlast Registered user Username: Freeatlast Post Number: 615 Registered: 5-2002 |
According to Romans 2, even the unsaved know God's moral laws in their hearts. This is another proof positive that the Sabbath is not an eternal moral law. Nobody has a natural, conscience-driven intuition that not keeping the Sabbath day holy is morally wrong. While people do not have to be taught that murder, theft, and adultery are wrong, the concept of Sabbath has to be taught to someone before it enters their conscience. Originally, it had to be taught to the Israelites by God Himself and reinforced by Moses. Likewise, Sabbath has to be taught to Adventist prostelytes and reinforced by Ellen White. Sabbath holiness is not "naturally" known by any human being. | ||
| Seekinglight Registered user Username: Seekinglight Post Number: 300 Registered: 3-2009 |
Ugh, I can't help but wish that Paul or Jesus had just said something like this: "It is no longer necessary for Christians to keep the weekly Sabbaths holy. In the future, there will be certain movements that will try to resurrect this practice, but do not listen to them." I can't believe the vast amounts of material that have been written on this hotly-debated topic. For me, it's exhausting, quite frankly. Following and loving Christ should not be this difficult, and this issue shouldn't cause this much tension & division among folks who claim to be members of Christ's body. | ||
| Joyfulheart Registered user Username: Joyfulheart Post Number: 646 Registered: 10-2006 |
Something else I've been pondering on this topic. The tree Adam and Eve ate from was the tree of knowledge of good and evil. After they ate, they knew they were naked - right from wrong. The law hadn't been given yet. When we become alive in Christ, we want to live in a way that will please Him. The Holy Spirit now guides us. We are truly new creatures in Christ. The Holy Spirit is living in us. We don't need the ten commandments anymore as a moral guide. | ||
| Honestwitness Registered user Username: Honestwitness Post Number: 897 Registered: 7-2005  |
I can't bring myself to believe the sabbath commandment is a moral law, like the other nine commandments are. Jesus not only broke the sabbath commandment Himself, but He also instructed his disciples and the lame man to do so. In fact, this continuous breaking of the sabbath is what convinced the Jews they were obeying God by putting Jesus to death. (See John 5. The verb tense indicates Jesus was continually breaking the sabbath.) Jesus proved it is possible to break the sabbath and still seek to keep the other nine commandments, even to a much heightened degree. (He said if we have lust in our hearts, we have already committed adultery.) This is exactly the way the Holy Spirit leads His people today. While He releases us from ceremonial laws, He works within us to be hyper-conscientious about not violating moral laws. Do you feel guilty when you refuse to forgive someone? Do you give back the extra dollar bill the clerk accidentally gives you? Do you follow the promptings within your heart that call you to make sacrifices for others? That's the Holy Spirit working within your heart, based on the SPIRIT of the law, which is so much more restrictive than the LETTER of the law, and can cover so many more subtle situations than the LETTER of the law ever could. This is what I believe about this topic. However, though I have shared some of these thoughts with my SDA husband, he refuses to take the Bible for what it actually says. He said to me, "No one will EVER convince me that Jesus broke the sabbath!" This was said even after I reminded him of John 5. Even while reading God's Word, an Adventist will insist it says the exact opposite of what is right there in front of their eyes. | ||
| Handmaiden Registered user Username: Handmaiden Post Number: 75 Registered: 7-2008 |
The short answer 9 of the 10 commandments are repeated in the New Testament The sabbath command is NOT repeated because it was a sign post that pointed to the REST, we have in JESUS and His finished work on the cross When you arrive at your destination; you NO longer NEED the sign post. ***************************************************************************************** Christians go to the park and have a wonderful time enjoying it = picnic, hike, swim, play Frisbee (etc) sda go to the SIGNPOST that says: PARK 10 miles. They get out at the signpost and do NOTHING and then tell me what a "DELIGHT" the PARK is!!! : ***************************************************************************************** The long answer that really answers the question. When an sda asks me why I do not keep the sabbath. I usually ask them to tell me why they keep it?? Usually, it is the 10 commandments. I then ask them if they are Jewish???? Usually. No they are not. I then tell them that keeping the sabbath day ...was NEVER a requirement given to the GENTILES I then tell them that the 10 commandments were NOT given in the beginning. I show them that the Bible specifically says that the 10 commandments were given to the HEBREW children, 430 years after Abraham. Galatians 3:17 I show them where it specifically states that it was given to them and NOT to their fathers. Deut 5 1 Then Moses summoned all ISRAEL and said to them: "Hear, O ISRAEL, the STATUTES and the ORDINANCES which I am speaking TODAY in YOUR hearing, that YOU may learn them and OBSERVE them carefully. 2 "The LORD our God made a COVENANT with us at Horeb. 3 "The LORD did NOT make this covenant with our FATHERS, but with US, with all those of US ALIVE here TODAY. I show them where it says it was NOT given to the Gentiles. Acts 14 16 "In the GENERATIONS gone by He PERMITTTED all the NATIONS to go their OWN ways; 17 and yet He did not leave Himself WITHOUT WITNESS, in that He did good and gave you rains from heaven and fruitful seasons, satisfying your hearts with food and gladness." I ask them what DISTINGISHES a Jew from a Gentile??? It is the LAW that SEPARATES a Jew from a Gentile. (JEWS represent BELIEVERS - GENTILES represent UNBELIEVERS) The PURPOSE OF THE LAW IS: 1. To show God's standard of holiness 2. To show people how IMPOSSIBLE the holy standard of God is to KEEP = a tutor to show our need for a Savior IMPOSSIBLE TO KEEP: a) Break even ONE commandment ONE time = you have broken ALL commandments b) Sorry No do overs c) Sorry No credit for "good" works = apart from Christ we can do nothing = no good work d) Sorry No credit for saying; you are sorry and asking forgiveness = Try that in a court of law! 3. To SEPARATE the Jews from the Gentiles Jews SEPARATED (i.e.) Entrusted with the oracles of God a) so that God could have a separated people to bring the Messiah through b) to record God's dealings with His people = written for our example c) to record the Messianic prophecies = so we could see their fulfillment in Christ d) to record the lineage of the Messiah = proof of who the Messiah is I then explain that when Jesus, born a Jew and subject to the law kept it perfectly - (NOT so that He could earn His way to heaven) HE IS GOD BUT for OUR benefit so that He could credit His keeping of the law to OUR account. He fulfilled ALL the requirements of the law on the behalf of mankind and credited it OUR account. When Jesus DIED he paid in full the DEBT requirement = DEATH for all transgressors of the law. When Jesus died the wall of separation between man and God = the veil in the temple was TORN (because what had really separated man from God was SIN and now SIN had been paid for in full) And the wall of separation between Jew and Gentile was NO longer NECESSARY because the Messiah had come. There is now no longer Jew and Gentile = we are all ONE in Christ The law NO longer separates a Jew from a Gentile because IT WAS FULFILLED IN CHRIST. A new commandment was given to ALLL believers = the law of LOVE The new commandment LOVE is NOT given to Unbelievers - just as the 10 commandments were NOT given to the GENTILES. The new commandment LOVE is not written on tables of stone = outside working inward But written on our hearts = inside working outward NOW what separates a BELIEVER from an UNbeliever is not whether or not they keep the LAW BUT whether or not they have JESUS as their Savior Beloved only one thing is needed! Are you in JESUS handmaiden | ||
| Indy4now Registered user Username: Indy4now Post Number: 678 Registered: 2-2008  |
Seekinglight~ I believe that someone who believes in the Investigative Judgment will never be able to understand 2Cor. 3 or Heb. 3 & 4. The root of the problem is what they believe was accomplished for them at the cross. You understand that Christ, through His blood has forgiven your sins at the cross and you now have atonement with God. This gives you "rest" from your "works". For someone who believes in the IJ, they don't believe they have atonement now. So how can they understand the "rest" of Heb.3? If Christ's blood wasn't "strong" enough to wipe out their sins at the cross, how do they understand that the law has no power over them? In their theology, what has Christ's blood overcome? His blood is insufficient... it can't actually permanently remove sins because they believe their sins remain until they are place on Satan. Then... if their sins remain to be placed on Satan when he's thrown into the lake of fire, when do they have atonement? They have no rest, no peace... the law still has power over them. Until they understand the depth of what Christ accomplished for us at the cross, they cannot understand how the OC was fulfilled. vivian | ||
| Bskillet Registered user Username: Bskillet Post Number: 479 Registered: 8-2008 |
Ask them: Does a loving son only obey his dad because he is afraid his dad will kick him out of the house if he doesn't? And if there was a son who obeyed his dad only for that reason, would you think of that as a healthy father-son relationship. Ask them: Would a child who lives in an intimate, loving, 24/7/365 relationship with his father, begin to take on his father's traits and character? What would happen if that father then actually lived inside his child? Wouldn't that child become just like his father? This stuff ain't complicated, so long as you just let the Bible say precisely what it does, and don't assume that somehow our relationship with God is supposed to be more twisted and disfunctional than our relationships with each other. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 10183 Registered: 12-2003  |
Seekinglight, I so understand what you said. I also deeply understand your comments about there's nothing like leaving a cult to expose and "attack" (my paraphrase!) one's people-pleasing habits. The reason your family is so hostile is that they actually do feel "trapped". They can tangibly see that you really are loyal to Jesus and that you love Him--and frankly, they know they don't feel that way about Him. They are deeply unsettled because your commitment and willingness to suffer loss for His sake goes against everything they have believed about "apostate Protestantism". And frankly, it makes them mad to have their tidy worldview disturbed. It holds together with rationalization, and when their shaky arguments are exposed, they feel deeply threatened, even though they may not call it "threatened". They just know they're angry, and they feel attacked. This is the profound manifestation of the spiritual component and spiritual battle of Adventism abutting the Holy Spirit. Colleen | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 935 Registered: 7-2007 |
I'm glad that Handmaiden didn't give up on me when I was an Adventist. She and I talked off and on about Christianity/Adventism for two years without me budging an inch. She didn't say: "well, I can't convince her. So I'll just pray about it." I was just a co-worker - not a family member. Yet, she was willing to fast and pray and not give up. She was willing to study garbage - meaning what Ellen White was all about - in order to contend for the faith. This is not just a "belief system." It's a matter of eternal life and death. On the Titanic, the people who refused to believe that the ship was sinking, went down with the ship. | ||
| Psalm107v2 Registered user Username: Psalm107v2 Post Number: 377 Registered: 10-2008  |
Handmaiden, what a great explanation!!! And even moreso I too am glad you didn't give up on ASurprise- | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 940 Registered: 7-2007 |
Handmaiden, I can just see the SDAs standing beside that hot and dusty signpost beside the road, grinning into the camera and saying "what a delightful park (Sabbath) this is!" They're keeping the shadow of Jesus and missing Jesus entirely!!! | ||
| Handmaiden Registered user Username: Handmaiden Post Number: 82 Registered: 7-2008 |
Thank you Enoch i try the best i can to keep things simple for unbelievers. They for sure cannot understand the deeper things of God. i learned a lot from the one, who did not give up on me !!!! We can all be grateful for the ones, whom the Lord used to bring us out of darkness into the Light of the World, Jesus. i never met anyone that Jesus did not die for...met lots who do not know that amazing truth. i believe as long as there is breath there is hope. My own mother was saved the day before she died. Thank you Jesus!!!!!! i witnessed to her for 10 long years. i still battle for the spiritual life of my atheist brother. i have been witnessing to him for over 30 years and he is far less than kind to me or the God i love, except when he needs some kind of help. i know NOT everyone will be saved but i cling to the promise of you and your household. Please do not give up on those you love...no matter how wickedly they treat you. Remember they are slaves to satan and do his bidding and speak his words, just as we are servants of the Most High God and speak His words and do His bidding. Try not to be hurt or take offense ...it is not you they hate but JESUS in you. Ask God to fill you with HIS AGAPE unconditonal love for them. Be QUICK to FORGIVE them knowing, that they do not know what they are doing, anymore than a blind, deaf and stubborn man can find his way out of a cave. You must lead them out of the darkness, with your light, your eyes that see the truth, and your ears that can hear the voice of your Shepherd. You must be Christ like to them. Christian means little Christ. Be Christ to them. We are NEVER more like Christ than when we are FORGIVING someone, who has hurt us to the very depths of our core. Christ was loving and gentle but He also knew how to call a lie a lie. Speak the TRUTH in LOVE. TRUTH without LOVE kills LOVE without TRUTH will NOT set the captive free. We are in a battle for those we love. Do not go to war without counting the cost and being prepared and if necessary willing to lay your life down for those you seek to win, to the Gospel of the true and living God of Holy Scriptures. Do not let satan discourage you. Take a break by all means, heal from the battle wounds, be refreshed in the Spirit and in the Word... But do not stop bringing the truth to the lost. Do not quit the fight for their freedom. As long as there is breath there is hope. As long as there is LOVE there will be victory. satan cannot fight against LOVE and who can resist it for long. Remember people do not care how much you know until they KNOW how much you really do genuinely CARE about their eternal souls. It is not about proving you are right and they are wrong. It is NOT just a different belief system. It is the difference between eternal life and eternal death. What a person BELIEVES is life or death. On 911 a group of people where caught in the middle of one of the towers. They stopped and thought about what to do. Some believed they should go up to the top and be rescued by helicopters, as had happened the last time the towers were attacked by bomb. Others thought they should go down. Niether were sure what the truth was... which way would bring safety and preserve life. Both groups acted on what they genuinely BELIEVED was the right way to go. Those who went up perished. Those who went down survived to tell the story. What you BELIEVE is life and death. NOTE: What you BELIEVE is life or death. LIFE Is NOT based on whether you have been good or bad or on how well you kept the law. LIFE DEPENDS ON WHAT YOU BELIEVE DO YOU BELIEVE ON THE LORD JESUS CHRIST or do you BELIEVE in yourself??? When the death angel PASSED OVER the children of Israel on the dreadful night of the last plague. He did not have a check list to see who was good and who was bad. i got news for people that think you can get to heaven by being good law keepers. God does not need a list. God does not need to investigate. HE ALREADY KNOWS THERE IS NONE GOOD ...NOPE SORRY NO NOT ONE The death angel was looking for ONE thing He was looking for the BLOOD OF THE LAMB on the doorpost. That and only that was the difference between LIFE and death. BELIEVING God or by FAITH they put that BLOOD on their doorposts. When you stand before the throne of God, there is ONLY ONE THING He will be looking for ... is the BLOOD OF THE LAMB on the doorpost of your HEART??? That's alll you got to tell the "good" people Thats alll you got to tell law keepers There is NONE good. No one can keep the law DO YOU HAVE THE BLOOD OF THE LAMB?? YES = LIFE NO = DEATH WORTHY WORTHY WORTHY IS THE LAMB WHO WAS SLAIN ALL GLORY AND HONOR AND PRAISE BELONGS TO HIM People are bar none theeee most valuable treasure on earth as the Lord purchased them with His Own precious blood. i tell the downtrodden patients where i work, who think that they are no good and have completly wasted and messed up their lives ...just how very valuable and precious they are to God, Who created them and redeemded (purchased again) them and yet respects them enough to not force them to come to Him. He leaves it up to them to accept or reject His free gift, His free offer for a new begining, to become a new creature. It is NOT self esteem that makes a difference in their lives. IT IS SELF WORTH! They are sooo valuable by virture of the price JESUS was williing to pay for them. No one is beyond HIS power and ability to make them NEW CREATURES. I am so grateful that Asurprise surrendered to the LAMB OF GOD. oh what a day of rejoicing that was She is not just my good friend. She is my sister in the Lord. But even more she is my co-worker and my co-contender in the faith, my co-laborer in the field white for the harvest. one can put a thousand to flight but two can put 10,000 to flight. She has already led a co-worker, a former catholic, now to salvation in the LORD JESUS. We both work in a government facility where lifting up the name of JESUS is sooo forbidden sooooo politically incorrect. We have both been reprimanded for sharing the Gospel. We are both hard workers and both of us submit to the authority over us...but this is one area where we must be willing to obey God rather than man. Despite the consequences. People in China and muslim countries put their lives on the line to share the Gospel. We for now are only putting our good government jobs on the line. satan would like us to fear him and fear losing our jobs in this economy and post christian era But God not government is my provider! What freedom there is in the fear of the LORD alone. How can i be willing to die for Christ if i am not even willing to love HIM more than my job??????? i believe God put us there and we will be there until He decides we can serve Him better else where. We both do covet your prayer support. Father, i do lift up all the beloved members of this forum and their loved ones, who do not know YOU. i pray that they will not grow wearing in well doing or in contending for the faith and the lives of their loved ones. i pray that they would not rely on their own effort or ability or strengths but where they are weak You would be their strength. When they do not know what to say that the Holy Spirit would fill their mouths. LORD empty them of themselves and fill them to overflowing with Your amazing grace, Your unending mercy, your unfailing, unconditiional love that covers a multitude of sins. Help them to forgive unkind family members, as You have forgiven us. | ||
| Handmaiden Registered user Username: Handmaiden Post Number: 83 Registered: 7-2008 |
Give them eyes to "see" the enemy behind the behavior of their lost loved ones. Give them wisdom and discernment to know how to break down the walls of resistance and destroy the lies and hold of the enemy. Lead them and guide them in Your ways, direct their paths give them opportunity, make a way where there is no way oh Lord to set the captives free. Bless all of these dear ones cause them to seek Your face and to sit at Your feet and learn of You, to soak in Your presence and then go out and be Your ambassadors to a lost and dying world. Grant them victory Lord as they surrender their rights and their hurts and their memories and yield their very lives completely to You. We praise You and worship You and give You all the glory for Your mighty hand of deliverance in the lives of those we love. We cling to the promise in Your Word that those of our household would be saved. Thank You for saving us. For meeting us in our deepest need. we are so grateful Lord for Who You are and alll that You have done for us. we love You, help us to love You more and more, draw us ever nearer with each passing day we pray in Jesus Name amen handmaiden | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 5303 Registered: 9-2006 |
Quote: "LIFE DEPENDS ON WHAT YOU BELIEVE " That is exactly why I get so upset when they drag out the sincerity clause on this forum. I guess one day I will cease to be upset when I see people throwing themselves upon their sword of sincere unbelief. Ain't likely to be soon though, because just about time I get all situated, comfortable and happy, somebody will drag out the old sincerity clause to stroke the snake with. River | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 398 Registered: 3-2009 |
Life depends on what you believe? or Life depends on whom you belief/trust? Hec | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 10197 Registered: 12-2003 |
I'm with you, River. Hec, good question--ultimately it does depend upon WHOM...but the "what" is closely related. In terms of the non-negotiable points of the Christian faith, the "what" is crucial. As an Adventist, the "what" that I believed stood between me and Who. Sincerity does not excuse sin. We are obligated to surrender even our sincere beliefs to the Lord Jesus. I've been reading a good book by Janis Hutchinson, a former Mormon, called Out of the Cults and Into the Church. I am more convicted than ever that the bottom line for recovering from the false beliefs and false identity and false worldview of a cult is two-fold: having a place to talk and vent (such as we do here), and intentionally submitting ourselves to deep Bible study. Many people leave cults and begin attending churches, but for years they cling both to the gospel AND to false beliefs from their particular cults. One cannot continue to hold onto two opposing paradigms--these people suffer depression, anxiety, unresolved grief, etc etc. It takes, as we have often said, at least two years and sometimes as long as eight to recover. But my experience, largely here on the forum and in our local FAF for the past 10 years, is that the more consistent a person is in pursuing Bible study and in submitting their minds and lives to biblical truth, the faster they transition. The "what" does matter! Colleen |
