| Author |
Message |
Jrt
Registered user
Username: Jrt
Post Number: 696
Registered: 10-2008
| | Posted on Monday, July 20, 2009 - 6:59 pm: |     |
Jim,
Just a curious question if you feel comfortable answering ...
Are you still reading any SDA material? Do you have any SDA books in your home? ...
Last thought ... When trying to figure out "things" such as Romans 3:31 ... are you going to the scriptures only or other reading materials? And do you read whole chapters in scripture? Have you read Galatians in one sitting?
Just curious ....
Keri |
Jim02
Registered user
Username: Jim02
Post Number: 883
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 21, 2009 - 6:55 am: | |
I meant to answer some of the questions asked in this string.
Asurprise wrote:
Are you still thinking that your salvation is up to your "keeping" the law? Or as SDAs tend to think... "partly" up to you?
J: I am not sure. When I read the NT. I see all these approach paths , freedoms, living by the Spirit and so on, but I also see very many admonitions, parameters, full circles and accountability warnings. So while I try to hold onto the good news, It appears to me that we are still accountable and responsible for our actions, efforts and behaviour, mostly in the form of choices and it appears to me , by the way of The Holy Spirit. It does not appear to me that we have a lock on salavtion and can indeed be lost thru neglect, complancency and "deliberate" continued sin. I do not see where scripture teaches once saved always saved. Actually it warns the opposite.
I have not closed my mind to this inquiry, only that every time I review it, I continue to see conditional parameters to every single statement in scripture.
Keri,
No, I have not been reading EGW books for some time now. One of my premises is that I must not use EGW as a material basis in the apolegetics effort. I can only speak for myself and from the basis of scripture alone. Even so, obviously after over 30 years of reading EGW material, obviously , some of my formatting may reflect her materials here and there. But that is not my objective. Consensual validation thru repetition is something I am opposed to from the start.
I am trying to learn for myself, simple as that.
Jim |
Jrt
Registered user
Username: Jrt
Post Number: 697
Registered: 10-2008
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 21, 2009 - 7:27 am: | |
Jim,
Sorry, but there were more questions I was asking ...
1.) Do you still have EGW books in your home? (just curious)
2.) Are you going to the scriptures only or other reading material?
3.) Do you read WHOLE chapters of scripture or just look at a text here and there?
4.) Have you read Galatians in one sitting?
Praying for you Jim ... Praying for The Light to shine in your darkness ...
Keri
P.S. I have no idea what you mean by consensual validation thru repetition is something I am opposed to from the start. Can you tell me what that means in a succinct manner? |
Jim02
Registered user
Username: Jim02
Post Number: 884
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 21, 2009 - 8:11 am: | |
Colleen,
I have thought about the fact that sin was in the world before the law was given.
The wages of sin is death.
The law had a purpose.
Scripture says that Jesus would magnify the law and make it honorable.
What sets the 10C apart from all the other law is that it was God written. A close encounter of the 3rd kind as it were.
Scriptures says that He would write His laws upon our heart, it neither explains inclusive or exclusive limits to which laws. It is simply His laws. Now since the 10C is the single example of 1st Person of God, I assume that this at minimum includes that one single example of Given law.
I cannot prove it, but neither does their appear any proof that it is excluded by countermanded order in the 1st Person of God.
I am willing to consider , my entire premise is wrong, but again, I am thinking in simple terms because thinking in layered tangental terms is unfair to the human mind and I do not think God expects us to go to these lengths to arrive at simple truths and common sense reasoning.
Do you recall the account of where God told this prophet to travel by a certain path, then return another path etc and some third person told him that the plan was changed and so the prophet took the wrong path and was killed. Thus, the lesson, God gives a direct command, only God can countermand that order.
Again, I may be wrong in this premise, but that seems to be the clear indication here.
Another thing that happens a lot is that so many models of theology depend upon the concept that Christ was speaking as a Jew under the first covenant. Then after His death on the cross, everything changed.
The problem is , just about everything that Jesus taught can be disqualified, claim that it does not apply. The same with much of the OT.
So then, when Christ said "Go ye therefor and teach all nations whatsoever I have commanded you", the NC holders say, yes , except for everything Christ taught while a Jew.
I am over-simplifying here, the point is, I have a difficult time setting aside almost every premise of the Gospel teachings to accomidate the NC teachings as given by Paul and extrapolated by our modern day theology. I am not convinced of the extreme scope of suggested liberty from all law.
It seems to me, if we indeed were intended to take the libertys as proposed, Christ would have taught this.
Jim |
Jim02
Registered user
Username: Jim02
Post Number: 885
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 21, 2009 - 9:48 am: | |
1.) Do you still have EGW books in your home? (just curious)
I have a couple in storage. I got rid of a couple dozen books a few years ago.
2.) Are you going to the scriptures only or other reading material?
Bible, Bible Dictionary, Online commentary,
NIV Study Bible, some on line surfing.
I have scanned the Bible readings for the Home as a topical reference. Not for footnotes.
3.) Do you read WHOLE chapters of scripture or just look at a text here and there?
Both.
4.) Have you read Galatians in one sitting?
Not the whole book in one setting, but over usually a few days.
consensual validation thru repetition :
To "consent" with , or agree with , to consent to "validate" a theory, suggestion or proposal by virtue and reason of constant "repetition".
eg: Self hypnosis, power of suggestion, group-think, custom, culture, "we always did it that way before, trust me, I am authorty, I know better etc..
Jim |
Jrt
Registered user
Username: Jrt
Post Number: 698
Registered: 10-2008
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 21, 2009 - 10:11 am: | |
Jim,
I'm going to suggest something that may or may not resonate with you - but using your "consenusal validation thru repetition" idea - I think this suggestion fits ...
Try for the next 30 days to read only scripture and use only cross-references in those scriptures (No, absolutely, NO commentaries by anyone!). This includes the commentary in your NIV study Bible ... therefore, you may need to use a Bible that only has cross-references.
My concern for you Jim, is that you may go to the concordance to "proof-text", which you've done all your life.
If you want to know truth without "group-think"; I am an authority; culture; trust me; etc. Then look at your tools. Can you Jim, be disciplined enough to only use the Bible, and cross-references.
THEN and this is the MOST important part ... be willing to humbly submit yourself to what the Holy Spirit will illuminate to you through the Inspired, Infallible, Inerrant, Indisputable power of the Word.
Lastly, Jim do you accept that Jesus paid a debt you couldn't pay? Do you believe that salvation is through Jesus alone and not anything that you can add to that salvation? Lastly, Do you believe that salvation can not be lost based on what you do? Salvation is by belief in Jesus alone - not of works ... read Eph. 2:1-8.
If you can't answer yes to the above questions I'm doubtful you will EVER understand God's word. Not meaning to be unkind - but spiritual things are spiritually discerned and that comes from being born-again. Born again is believing in Jesus and Jesus alone - Period!
Jim, I am praying for you ... because I believe God IS drawing you to Himself.
Keri |
Skeeter
Registered user
Username: Skeeter
Post Number: 129
Registered: 12-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 21, 2009 - 11:27 am: | |
Keri,
I am butting in here only because it concerned me when you said "If you can't answer yes to the above questions ""I AM DOUBTFUL YOU WILL EVER understand God's word."" Not meaning to be unkind - but spiritual things are spiritually discerned and that comes from being born-again. "
It is the "EVER" that concerns me here.
I am VERY thankful that GOD shows his loving kindness as well as PATIENCE with those of us who are struggling, and truly trying to understand. We were in a false religion (that we believed to be true) for so many years that it is going to take time to "get it". We have a lat to learn. We also have a lot to UN learn. And to say that YOU are doubtful that someone, anyone will EVER understand God's word,, I feel is a very negative and very cruel and thoughtless thing to say. I am HOPING that you did not MEAN what you said in the way it came across in print.
NONE of us are perfect, NONE of us have a complete understanding of God and the way he works in each individuals minds and hearts.
I am not giving up on anyone and I sure hope that no one on here gives up on me, or on Jim,or YOU, or anyone else... but regardless of human opinions,,, I KNOW that GOD, our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will NOT give up on any of us .
As Humans we tend to want to see instant results on everything... but we cannot lock GOD into OUR timeline. |
Seekinglight
Registered user
Username: Seekinglight
Post Number: 288
Registered: 3-2009
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 21, 2009 - 11:39 am: | |
Ok, here's another question. If someone has moments of doubt about their salvation-status, does that mean they're not really saved? Aren't we trying to make "faith" into a "work" if we say this? Just pondering, b/c I don't think any Christian has perfect faith or assurance all the time. |
Jim02
Registered user
Username: Jim02
Post Number: 886
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 21, 2009 - 11:57 am: | |
Can you Jim, be disciplined enough to only use the Bible, and cross-references.
I am capable of compartmentalized learning.
I do know how to run filters.(or prevent them)
Please understand that I do endeavor to confine my theology to scripture alone. But it takes time.
I get your point in any event. I have already begun that very move towards reducing multiple interpretations and trying to focus on what is in text. That said, I do not incorporate blinders.
Scripture is of no private interpretation and sometimes there is a need to define or clarify some passages. Yes, that can be like wlaking in a mine field.
Lastly, Jim do you accept that Jesus paid a debt you couldn't pay?
J: Yes I do.
Do you believe that salvation is through Jesus alone and not anything that you can add to that salvation?
J: That is a global and unqualified statement.
Lastly, Do you believe that salvation can not be lost based on what you do?
J: No
Salvation is by belief in Jesus alone - not of works ... read Eph. 2:1-8.
1As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature[a] and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath. 4But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
J: For past sins and for the growth process.
To simply stop here, we can now safely ignore all the other admonintions in the NT.
It would be nice if it were isolated and unqualified, but scripture repeatedly and plainly warns and qualifys conditions to salvation. |
Jrt
Registered user
Username: Jrt
Post Number: 699
Registered: 10-2008
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 21, 2009 - 12:42 pm: | |
Skeeter,
Thank you for asking your questions so that I might "reframe" my response ...
Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God. And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual.
The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. 1 Cor. 2:12-14;ESV
So let me reframe and rephrase ... until a person is born-again (John 3) and is given the Holy Spirit they will not be able to read scripture and understand spiritual things with clarity - because they do not have the Holy Spirit living in them (as referenced by 1 Cor. 2:12-14).
To be born again, a person must accept that they are an object of God's wrath (Rom. 3) That they are spiritually dead (completely disconnected from God) and that Jesus is the only way to be saved. As long as a person hangs on to the idea that they contribute to their salvation either by deeds or keeping of the law - and they believe they keep their salvation by contributing their deeds or keeping the law - they are according to scripture not placing their faith in Jesus and cannot be saved.
NOW, are we all growing and learning - my goodness, yes! Does anyone on this forum have all knowlege or spiritual knowing? I think that statement is reserved for God alone.
What I was referring to Skeeter is that until someone decides (makes a choice) for Christ and Christ alone they will not be able to read scripture with any form of clarity. That is what I meant by "ever". Until you answer yes, fully to Jesus and place saving faith in Him you really can't discern spiritual things (you are spiritually dead; Eph. 2:1-8)
Jim (sorry, Jim to refer to you in third person - and know that I refer to you kindly and with no malice whatsoever) seems to indicate by his own posts that he is still holding on to the law in some form or another and struggling to discern scripture and from previous posts is still struggling to place his trust on Jesus alone for his salvation and his sanctification. (Sorry, Jim, if I'm completely wrong here - know my thoughts are not ill towards you nor am I meaning to be judgmental - but praying to spur you to a complete admission of Jesus alone to save you and that you don't lose or keep your salvation by your deeds or keeping the law)... I have no clue ... but I would hate to miss an opportunity for you to accept the gospel if you haven't already fully done it...
Does that help you Skeeter?
Forgive me for the use of the "flaming" word "ever". But I meant you can't understand spiritual things until you accept the gospel ... so you never (???) begin to spiritually discern scripture with any clarity until you become born again.
Seekinglight, ... I do believe we do have "moments" of doubts on occasion ... does that mean someone is not saved ... I don't believe so, but I can't come up with scripture right off ... rather, I think the enemy, who is the accuser of the brethren, is doing his thing ... and trying to steal our joy in Christ ... by "moments" of doubt ...
Here are some interesting scripture texts from the story of Thomas (John 11:6 - pretty bold statement by Thomas; John 14:5; John 20:24-28).
Keri
P.S. Skeeter, next time you post would you not "shout" so often - (are you aware that capitalizing is a form of emphasizing or "shouting".) Yes, I used the word, ever - as an emphasis, but I'm afraid I didn't shout every line or two. Again, forgive me for the inflaming word "ever". I hope I've clarified now. |
Jrt
Registered user
Username: Jrt
Post Number: 700
Registered: 10-2008
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 21, 2009 - 12:45 pm: | |
If you read carefully above, those who are born again will see my point.
I continue to pray,
Keri |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 5241
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 21, 2009 - 2:14 pm: | |
I think what some of the things that Jim is struggling with is a devastating divorce, finding out that many of the things he believed in previously don't quite hold up and whole plethora of other things.
Many of us have gone through hardships and been shaken, but these are Jims hardships and things that try your soul.
I think Jim will come up with the answers in Jims own time, it takes longer for some than others, but God has not abandoned Jim.
I do love and am still praying for Jim.
How does Jim feel about that?
River |
Jim02
Registered user
Username: Jim02
Post Number: 887
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 21, 2009 - 2:27 pm: | |
River, I was waiting for you to strike out at me.
You didn't............
You are right, there is damage. Still picking up the pieces.
If you all will bear with me, I believe I will be able to make up my mind about some things sooner or later.
If I accept the scripture that says; "God is the Author and Finisher of our faith", then all this has purpose.
Jim |
Jim02
Registered user
Username: Jim02
Post Number: 888
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 21, 2009 - 2:38 pm: | |
Keri, Skeeter,
It's all good. I understand about measured words. I trip all over myself here on the forum.
I try to allow for the bumps in the road myself.
I appreciate both of your thoughts.
Thanks
Jim |
Jrt
Registered user
Username: Jrt
Post Number: 701
Registered: 10-2008
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 21, 2009 - 3:37 pm: | |
Jim,
I'm with you and want you to know I do care and will continue to pray for you as you heal, pick up the pieces and are drawn close to Christ.
Blessings,
Keri |
Jim02
Registered user
Username: Jim02
Post Number: 889
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 21, 2009 - 3:55 pm: | |
Romans 10:
8But what does it say? "The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,"[d] that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: 9That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. 11As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame.
J: This is what I cling to.
Jim |
Skeeter
Registered user
Username: Skeeter
Post Number: 132
Registered: 12-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 21, 2009 - 4:59 pm: | |
I apologize for "shouting" I dont see anything on here that allows me to underline, resize words, etc.... so thats the only way I saw to emphasize words. I didn't mean to yell .
Hope you will forgive me. :-)
And I am glad you clarified as I felt sure you did not mean offense by the use of the word "ever". and I will try and figure out how to emphasize words without shouting so as not to offend by using so many caps. Thank you for giving me a heads up on that. :-) and again, I apologize. Yelling was not my intent. |
Philharris
Registered user
Username: Philharris
Post Number: 1738
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 21, 2009 - 6:37 pm: | |
Skeeter,
Go to the bottom of this screen and click on 'Help/Instructions'. You will find out how to do all sorts of things including bold type, underline, italic, change the font color, strike out and change text size.
Fearless Phil |
Jrt
Registered user
Username: Jrt
Post Number: 702
Registered: 10-2008
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 21, 2009 - 7:32 pm: | |
Jim, I hope you'll read this ...
Sorry, if I belabor something here ...
True story:
I met and spoke with a more experienced woman (70's)  ... who shared with me something that has stuck.
She and her husband have never had experience in Adventism.
At a women's retreat she shared with me how she and her husband came to Christ and Christ alone.
She accepted Christ in her heart and knew that she was saved.
Both she and her husband attended church regularly and her husband was very engaged in volunteer work for the church. (can't remember the denomination). He sounded good (meaning could say all the right Christian words) and he "looked" good - volunteering for the church (good "works or deeds").
Don't remember all the details, but she and her husband (Charley - not real name) went to see the pastor (maybe for marital counseling or something). This woman recounted for me that the pastor said at the end of their time together, "Charley, I don't sense you have placed saving faith in Christ. And because I don't believe you have placed saving faith in Jesus - I'm going to ask that you repent of your sin and place saving faith in Jesus."
This woman said her husband left the pastor's office fuming and MAD. He went home from the meeting threatening to resign his church positions, stop paying tithe, and never set foot in that church again.
The woman recounted that two weeks later, her husband went to the pastor and told the pastor he was right. The pastor and he had prayer and Charley believed in Christ alone, through faith alone, by grace alone. And it was no longer a parroted phrase to him - or something he said ... it was something that happened in his heart.
This woman said that after that her husband changed and the way he interacted with their children changed ... and ...
So, ... as mentioned on another thread ... there is a "spiritual" sense between believers who have and rely on Christ for their salvation.
Other times there is a "spiritual" sense of "I don't know if this person really has placed saving faith in Christ" (confusion). And sometimes you just know it "ain't" there. We are not to judge - but I always remember the story above and so I error on the part of maybe not when I am confused - because I'd hate to miss the opportunity to encourage someone to Christ.
With you, Jim, I'm a little confused and because I love you too much to leave it alone I'm going to point out something ... only because I'm confused and really don't have a "sense" - so I can be totally wrong.
I wrote questions to which you responded, "Do you believe that salvation is through Jesus alone and not anything that you can add to that salvation?
J: That is a global and unqualified statement.
Lastly, Do you believe that salvation can not be lost based on what you do?
J: No (Jim, I believe the answer is yes - but maybe you read the question to hurriedly - so I'm going to ask this another way)
Lastly, you write Jim, "To simply stop here, we can now safely ignore all the other admonintions in the NT.
It would be nice if it were isolated and unqualified, but scripture repeatedly and plainly warns and qualifys conditions to salvation.
Jim, this confuses me ... conditions to salvation?
The gospel is really quite simple, but simply profound.
So I will ask again out of deep care for you?
Please read very slowly this question.
1. Can you, Jim, lose your salvation by what you do?
I wrestled with this question for several weeks myself. A woman who was dialoguing with me mentioned that I was moving to have Truth be real to me. And finally, I accepted in faith that I DID nothing for my salvation and I could DO nothing to lose it.
Jim, if you DON'T do anything to gain salvation, how can you DO anything to lose it?
So, because of my love and concern for you Jim, I'm wondering if you might go to God in prayer. Repent, if this is the case for you, that you have believed that you could DO something to lose your salvation. - If you believe you can DO something to lose your salvation - you really are trusting in yourself at some level for salvation.
Know I really, really care and am praying ...
Keri
(Message edited by jrt on July 21, 2009) |
Jrt
Registered user
Username: Jrt
Post Number: 703
Registered: 10-2008
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 21, 2009 - 7:34 pm: | |
Skeeter,
Forgiven ... I wondered if you might not have known that "computer" understanding. I had to learn it, too, by someone pointing it out to me.
Blessings,
Keri |
Asurprise
Registered user
Username: Asurprise
Post Number: 917
Registered: 7-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 21, 2009 - 8:08 pm: | |
Oh No!!!!!
That's the ONLY way I know how to EMPHASIZE!!! (Handmaiden doesn't know how to emphasize any other way either!)
I hope none of you will ever think I'm yelling when I do that!
Keri, I really liked your post. It's the same way with an atheist. An atheist will never understand God's word -- until he/she stops being an atheist!
Jim, salvation is by FAITH, not intellectual assent. "For without faith is is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him." Hebrews 11:6
Jim, you are confusing the "relationship rules" with salvation. When a person gets saved, they're IN THE FAMILY. In a flock of sheep, who's responsibility is it to keep the flock fed and go after the straying sheep? The shepherd!!
God disciplines every child He brings into the family. (Hebrews 12:5) So, it's not up to us to keep ourselves on the straight and narrow. That's God's job!!!
It's the same way with marriage. When a person commits adultery against a spouse, it makes the person unfaithful, not unmarried.
There's no one more miserable than a Christian who's living in sin, because that's not their nature anymore. The fellowship is broken with God, but not the relationship. They're still saved!
It's like the prodigal son. Even though he wasn't living like his father's son, he still WAS his father's son.
We do good things as Christians, because we ARE saved, not to get saved. |
Asurprise
Registered user
Username: Asurprise
Post Number: 918
Registered: 7-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 21, 2009 - 8:26 pm: | |
Phil; I tried out that help/instructions, but I STILL couldn't figure it out! |
Grace_alone
Registered user
Username: Grace_alone
Post Number: 1540
Registered: 6-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 21, 2009 - 10:03 pm: | |
Everyone, here's how to underline ~
http://www.formeradventist.com/cgi-bin/discus/discus.cgi?pg=formatting#text
~ Add that to your favorites.
Leigh Anne |
Philharris
Registered user
Username: Philharris
Post Number: 1739
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 22, 2009 - 5:48 am: | |
Asuprise,
Here is an example of how to format a line of text. Let's say you want the word 'underline' to be underlined in the following sentence.
"I would like the word 'underline' to be underlined.
It is formatted like this:
"I would like the word \u{'underline'} to be underlined."
The other formatting tools follow the same pattern.
Fearless Phil |
Jim02
Registered user
Username: Jim02
Post Number: 890
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 22, 2009 - 6:09 am: | |
Keri, Asurprise,
I was going to start another string because this one has fragmented and I am losing focus.
I will be posting a string "Contrasting."
I will attempt to answer or address your points/questions.
Jim |
Jrt
Registered user
Username: Jrt
Post Number: 704
Registered: 10-2008
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 22, 2009 - 6:29 am: | |
Jim,
There was only one question from me and it was a yes and no question ... Then I asked you to go to God.
I'm praying for you to gain focus again.
I will not belabor the point.
I continue to pray for you.
Keri |
|
