| Author | Message | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 891 Registered: 5-2007 |
I have been confused about the new Covenant terms and exactly what it includes, what it changes and by what authority. I have been reviewing Pauls writings and using my main Bible, a NIV, I have refreshed some of the passages in my mind. I have a heavily marked Bible and many of my highlights are color coded or coded icons. This helps me to sort and compare between books. Sometimes I think I have over studied and cannot see the forest for the trees. One of my attempts has been to try to reconstruct and verify how the Apostle Paul constructed his theology as given in his writings concerning the new covenant and the end of the letter of the law. He said the law was ministered by angels, and I gather it was conveyed by Moses. But I noticed that God gave it directly to Moses. In my last string I mentioned the theory about God giving direct commands. Then I realized , Moses conveyed the law from God to the people. Not sure that makes any difference regarding the law itself , but that it was conveyed by God's servant and as such that may enable the realization that it is also by another servant(s) that God's new covenant would also be conveyed. eg: His prophets. So, again, I was trying to see where Paul buils his validation from the then existing scriptures. So far, I have only found the passage about writing God's laws upon our hearts. What I have not found is the rest of the picture that Paul expounds upon. Be sure that I have been reading all the dozens of passages Paul has given regarding the end of the law, living by God's Spirit, and I have taken those in. They are not ignored. I want to cross match them and verify the unity of them with other books not written by Paul. I noted that as I read thru Paul's books. The cross references almost always were to another Paul written passage. That is in effect, circular. Now what I have percieved in Paul's writings, he was not offering any license for sin. No cheap grace. He was hammering works of rituals and observances of Sabbaths. Yet he maintain moral integritys. He keeps pointing back to faith in Christ as our righteousness and he inferred that he himself did not have a full grasp of it, but that he leaves behind the past and presses onward. He talked about he veil. To me this meant it was our approach to the law. In our own strengths and checklists perhaps vs living by The Spirit. Then he says we are set free from soemhow from our sin nature, slave to sin etc. I am not so sure it is that simple. Even in his own warnings he all but admits that sin(temptations) fear, anger, battles shall continue. Jesus said, to him that "overcomes"... This sounds like a struggle, an effort on our part. I have see where Paul specifically points out the Law, the letter of the Law, The 10C and the book of Moses. Does any one else do this? Clearly, I see there is a new covenant. My problem is I do not know what it includes for sure except for Paul's writings. Unless Paul's writings are validated in other books not written by Paul , I am at odds to incorporate it with the whole tenor of the Bible. I am "Not" rejecting Paul. I am having a problem validating and interlocking his teachings with other writers of the Bible. I was going to list a whole series of scriptures that point out sin warnings, conditions to continuing in salvation etc. I figure, surely , most of you have read these for yourself. What I do not get is how you come to the conclusion once saved always saved, or that we do not have a work to do. I do not see anywhere in scripture that we may set aside the 10C. Only in Paul's writing is it spoken of and even there he runs full circle. I have mentioned before, when I am inside Paul's books, I get it, I see a path and I fathom what he means. But when he starts talking about gaurding against sin, defining sin, and making faith the merit itself, it falls apart. Faith is a works if I am working it up. To me faith means to understand Who(Christ) or what(law-obedience) you have faith in. Paul talks of faith being the key, but undefined faith has no traction and no direction. I am not looking for an easy way out , nor for a license to sin. It is not about hat at all. I am looking for where I belong, for what is required of me. I am trying to understand the instructions. If I consider the whole 10C as moral. How can I set aside the Sabbath? If I live by The Spirit for the other 9 why not also the Sabbath? Entering into His rest, that means to me, no Sabbath check lists, but still a Sabbath time out, a day of rest, of family, of time out to slow down. (the moment I start the checklist, it's all ruined). I am trying to piece together a model that God wants me to live by. Maybe that is a waste of time. I am not sure. I hear over and over, God is responsible for the outcome. I understand some of that. But there are so many pragmatic warnings in scripture, I keep coming back to God does not expect us to simply cast off all care and drift along. There is accountability and action required of us. I just do not know where one (action) ends and the other (Faith) begins. You ask me about unrepentent or unconfessed sin, or about whether I can be lost by my own acts. According to NT passages, we can certainly be lost. As for sins, I confess daily, as for repentance, I have overcame many in the past and there are no doubt many more yet to deal with. It gets back to confusion. When I study and I read scriptures. What often happens is I hear this: Go left and go right, Stop and Go, release and hold tight. Go forward and go back. Old and new, new and old. I cannot do both............. This is why, unless somehow , I realize what it is I am supposed to do and what it is I am supposed to let go of, I cannot get it in gear and peace eludes me. So in the meantime, this is how I live, one day at a time and God knows I am lost in a sea of conflicting instructions (theorys). I trust in His salvation regardless if I ever understand anything. If I have any faith at all, it is in knowing that He knows where I am at. I feel like I just said a whole lot of nothing here. Probably no one will see the issue. That's ok. The things I need to know will come in small tidbits and in God's timing, what He wants me to know, will be given me. Jim | ||
| Jrt Registered user Username: Jrt Post Number: 705 Registered: 10-2008 |
Jim, Your mind is on overdrive ... I am praying and continue to pray for you. Stop, pray ... Get out a clean piece of paper. Draw a line down the middle. One side label Old Covenant; the other side label New Covenant. In the middle where you've drawn the line you will simply write the chapters you will be using to compare the two. Jim, pray that God will reveal Himself to you as you study and be willing to submit to what He reveals. Now, ... as you read the following chapters jot down in the appropriate column the phrases or words that refer to the Old Covenant or the New Covenant. Breath deep. Pray again ... The Holy Spirit reveals truth to those seeking Truth (Jesus) and those willing to submit to the Words of Scripture. 2 Cor. 3 & 4 Heb. 8, 9 Gal. 3-5 Jim, after you study I'm asking that you answer this one question. You have not answered it still ... It is a yes and a no question. 1.) 1. Can you, Jim, lose your salvation by what you do? Jim, if you DON'T do anything to gain salvation, how can you DO anything to lose it? So, because of my love and concern for you Jim, I'm wondering if you might go to God in prayer. Repent, if you answered yes to my one question above. For it is possible that you have believed that you could DO something to lose your salvation. - If you believe you can DO something to lose your salvation - you really are trusting in yourself at some level for salvation. Know I really, really care and am praying ... Keri P.S. Those that understand the gospel fully, who are reading this thread ... would you join me in praying for Jim. | ||
| Scarred4life Registered user Username: Scarred4life Post Number: 42 Registered: 1-2009 |
Hi Jim, Not sure if it was just me or not but I found it difficult studying with the NIV bible, I ended up buying a NKJV and found it a lot simpler. Not saying that the NKJV is easier to understand than the NIV but more that when you are studying your way out of Adventism you are obviously thinking along the ways of SDA doctrine and I found it easier with the NKJV. Praying that whatever you do God makes it simple for you. | ||
| Bskillet Registered user Username: Bskillet Post Number: 463 Registered: 8-2008 |
Jim, regarding faith, it is not a religious work, but something the Spirit plants in us. The Spirit gives faith traction and direction. It is unfathomable, because it is before head knowledge, and transcends head knowledge. In Romans 4, Paul characterizes faith as a foundational, super-rational trust in God. Abraham believed God's promises--"against [all] hope, in hope he believed"[my paraphrase of Rom. 4:18]. Kierkegaard said, "Abraham believed and did not doubt. He believed the preposterous." Faith is a belief in God's preposterous promise of salvation by grace. It is a belief that God has favor towards a man, apart from anything intrinsic in that man to merit it. This can only come from the Spirit. On the member's only section, I will post an excerpt of my book that actually deals with what faith means. Yes, and who breathed Scripture? God the Spirit. It is one of the means He uses to bring about His purposes in and through us, by showing us what He intends to bring about in us. Jim, my man, I love your humility. It is from God. But let me ask you something. You keep talking about what this or that verse "means to me." Have you asked the Spirit to tell you what it means to Him? Seems like you are starting to understand what faith means. | ||
| Bskillet Registered user Username: Bskillet Post Number: 465 Registered: 8-2008 |
Jim, I posted it on the main page instead. Oops. | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 892 Registered: 5-2007 |
I have decided not to answer the question. The conclusion in general is "I do not know" I will, by the Grace of God live by the light I have and trust God for all the rest. Jim | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 893 Registered: 5-2007 |
Postings are out of sync. Bskillet, I read your post, Thank You. Keri, I am not answering the question you posed. Not being rude, just that I cannot answer it, and I am wore out with this. I have answered already but it was not acceptable. Apparently, God has chosen to leave this area unanswered in my life. I do not have a plan of action. I cannot even say what I will or won't do. I don't know.... Jim | ||
| Jrt Registered user Username: Jrt Post Number: 706 Registered: 10-2008 |
Jim, I think you have sensed by now my great care for you ... and it is because I care I will not stop praying for you, especially at this crucial time. Your post 892 where you say, "I will, by the Grace of God live by the light I have and trust God for all the rest." Resonates as an Ellen White quote "live by the light I have" and line of thought. In her reference light is knowledge (doctrines) not Christ. The way you use "light" in your sentence equates light with knowledge not with Christ . Then Jesus again spoke to them, saying, "I am the Light of the world; he who follows Me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the Light of life." (John 8:12; NASB)" Jim, I'm not surprised you do not have a plan of action ... I'm not being cruel ... rather I continue to lift you in prayer. This is a spiritual issue, not an informational issue. And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. 1 John 5:11,12; NIV Jim, Salvation and staying saved is about Jesus - not what you do or do not do. You can not lose your salvation by what you DO. Jim, the light is shining on your unbelief - If salvation can be lost by what you DO then it is no longer belief, but works. I would simply recommend that you go to God in prayer and confess your unbelief, that you have been relying on yourself and what you DO to "keep your salvation". You are SO cared for and prayed for ... When your heart fully grasps this Truth (Who is Christ) life will begin to become clearer. Jim, if your mind is fried. And I totally understand that ... There is a song, "In Christ alone". http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJCYHPPqmE0 The work is done for your salvation and for "staying saved", rest in Jesus. With much care and much prayer, Keri (I listened to the utube myself - and though I've heard the song before, I dissolved into tears ... ) (Message edited by jrt on July 22, 2009) | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 10162 Registered: 12-2003  |
Jim, you asked for other authors that speak directly of the New Covenant: Luke 22:20b: "This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in My blood." Isaiah 42:6: "I am the LORD, I have called You in righteousness, I will also hold You by the hand and watch over You, And I will appoint You as a covenant to the people, As a light to the nations, Hebrews 7:18 and 22: "For, on the one hand, there is a setting aside of a former commandment because of its weakness and uselessness…so much the more also Jesus has become the guarantee of a better covenant." Hebrews 8:6-7: "But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, by as much as He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises.For if that first {covenant} had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second." Colleen | ||
| Nowisee Registered user Username: Nowisee Post Number: 53 Registered: 5-2009 |
Jim--Hi! Right now it seems like it would be a good time for you just to rest in Jesus..."Come to Me all you that labor & are heavy laden & I will give you rest." Do you believe His promise? I used to be really bothered by the word 'overcome'--til I read this in first John 5: "Who is he that overcomes the world? Only he who believes that Jesus is the son of God." Earlier, in vs. 4: ...for everyone born of God overcomes the world." This whole chapter is an excellent one to read. As I read & study my Bible now, I find it makes sense & doesn't contradict itself. I read a statement by J. Vernon Magee, defining sin as insubordination to God's will. That really made sense to me--in being born again the Holy Spirit really speaks to us of God's will for each of us. Hang in there & take your rest in Jesus--He's already done the work that's the key to everything! | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 894 Registered: 5-2007 |
Jrt, Thank you for the link, it was a very sweet song. (I forwarded the link to my sister.) The way you use "light" in your sentence equates light with knowledge not with Christ . J: I did not intend to resonate EGW. I was merely saying that I am trying to respond with what I understand so far. I cannot offer what I do not have. If you ask me if I trust in Christ, yes I do. Perhaps that is the first step. This too is also a derailing area. When I read that so much of what Jesus said was predicated upon being that side of the cross, it creates it's own filter effect. Why is it that there are these warnings about sin , sinner types etc if they are not meant to warn us to monitor our behaviour or fruits. I am not suggesting that we can clean ourselves up without His power in our lives. It seems to me we have an active work to do. A cooperative role. Not in the key of works to gain merit, but in effort and action to faciliate and cooperate with God's plan for our life. Scripture says we will give an account one day. What does that mean? Are we saved instantly?, I have to believe yes indeed we are, exclusive of works, progress or current status. (thief on the cross) There is a passage that if we deliberately keep on sinning , no more sacrifice remains. What does that mean? How do I confess unbelief when I do not know what it is I am not believing? Jrt, Thank You for caring, it means a lot to me. Mrs Colleen, Thank You, I wrote those down for study time. Nowisee, I will read 1John5 again. Yep , my mind gets weary, I get headaches, and crying makes it worse. I have to let go now and then or burn out. Thanks, Jim (Message edited by jim02 on July 23, 2009) | ||
| Bskillet Registered user Username: Bskillet Post Number: 470 Registered: 8-2008 |
Hebrews was written to Christians of Jewish origin who were leaving Christianity and returning to Judaism amid the persecutions of Christians, possibly even Nero's persecution. Judaism was a religion authorized by Nero. For a while Christians could claim to be a Jewish sect, and thus fall under Judaism's legal right to exist. However, by the 60s AD it was clear that Christianity was a different faith in its own right. Christianity was a (if I recall the Latin correctly) collegium illicitum, an illegal gathering and faith. The "deliberately keep on sinning" part refers to the idea that if the believers deliberately left Christianity to go back to Old Covenant Judaism, the only true sacrifice for sins, Jesus Christ, would not be theirs. Jesus' sacrifice was not part of the Old Covenant, so those who rejected Him in favor of Old Covenant Judaism cannot be covered by His sacrifice. Since He is the only true and effectual sacrifice for sins, those who reject him in favor of the Jewish sacrifices have no real sacrifice. At the time of the epistle the sacrificial system was still being practiced in the Temple, and synagogues all over the Roman world fell directly under the High Priest's authority. | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 895 Registered: 5-2007 |
Bskillet, Your information may be on target in essence. The general statement appears to indicate a pulling away from Christ and His Grace. Or a global pulling away from the gospel. I think it applies to context here. Hebrews 10:25-27 (New International Version) 25Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching. 26If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God At face value, this means all sin. http://bible.cc/hebrews/10-26.htm | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 896 Registered: 5-2007 |
By all sin, I agree in context it may be about pulling away or holding back, however , it appears to me to be about sin in general. The caveat for the former would be "recieved the knowledge of the truth" So I do see this both ways. | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 923 Registered: 7-2007 |
Jim, Peter called Paul's writings scripture. (I hope I'm not repeating what someone else said here - I don't know if I read everything on this thread.) | ||
| Indy4now Registered user Username: Indy4now Post Number: 675 Registered: 2-2008  |
I haven't read through all the posts so I may be repeating something already said also. Obviously, it's not "works" and "faith" that saves us. "Works" is always evidence of our transformation by Christ. If we haven't completely submitted ourselves to Christ, He cannot transform our hearts. He wants the whole "shebang"... so if we hang on to the idea that somehow we can do some work that "helps" us to gain brownie points with God, we haven't truly submitted to Him. Once we've submitted and accepted Christ as our sacrifice, we are buried in death with Christ and are brought up as a new creation. Our lives are evidence of being a "new creation" ... being transformed by Him. 2Co 3:18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit. ~vivian |
