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Jrt
Registered user
Username: Jrt
Post Number: 673
Registered: 10-2008
| | Posted on Monday, July 13, 2009 - 8:20 am: |     |
Sondra,
I've wanted to write and encourage you. You haven't done anything wrong or "missed" something. You lovingly prayed for and shared. You did the "right" things. We are called to share what we have and you did that ... But yes, God revealed to you something pretty important. I don't think you will be able to go back to the denial and believe that Adventist "speak" somehow indicates a sense of being born again. You will forever be out of that denial - a good thing.
Sondra I read something this morning that was powerful for me and I'll share it with you. It may not be comforting, but it is truth. Again, you didn't fail - but you can continue to pray. I have some ideas about how you can pray. I'll share them after this scripture:
John 8:43-49; NASB "Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word.
You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
"But because I speak the truth, you do not believe Me.
Which one of you convicts Me of sin? If I speak truth, why do you not believe Me?
He who is of God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not hear them, because you are not of God."
The Jews answered and said to Him, "Do we not say rightly that You are a Samaritan and have a demon?"
Jesus answered, "I do not have a demon; but I honor My Father, and you dishonor Me.
This is SO difficult, but to know the reality of it was God's gift to you. Now you know that this is spiritual, NOT informational.
My heart aches for you, but I praise God that your "denial about it is finally broken". That is an important gift to you from Jesus. I believe your witness will be even more powerful now that your eyes are open to the realities of it all.
In regards to praying. Look at this scripture again. They didn't hear - why? Because their father was the devil. Do you get this? They are still spiritually dead. We deceive ourselves when we wonder why people in Adventism don't "hear" what we are saying. It is an indication that they are still spiritually dead and under their father's roof (satan). Those who are God's DO hear His word. They are those that have been brought from death to life.
So ... pray that the enemy would be silenced in your grandmother's mind, heart and soul. Pray that the lies will be broken. Pray that satan is bound and that your grandmother will actually "hear" the gospel and be able to make an informed choice. I'm coming to a conclusion that I'm not sure if I can adequately articulate. But the scripture above sure speaks truth to it. It has been mentioned on this forum that there is a "Spirit of Adventism". Let me just label it more clearly using the text above ... Satan is clearly the author of lies. Adventism was born from a lie that Jesus would return in 1843 and then another lie was told - infact the lie was that God had been untruthful purposefully (this is a hideous lie against the righteous "character" of God (using Adventist terms)). Therefore, the Spirit of Adventism originates from Satan, Himself, the father of lies. And I'm under the impression that there are many strongholds in Adventism - from food issues to sexual issues. Therefore, not only is Satan at the head of all this, but he has a minion (legion) working with him.
We know how powerful God is ... He spoke one sentence - to the legion in scripture and sent them into pigs. This is the power of God over evil. Some might say we have to name each stronghold or whatever - but looking at God He spoke to truth that there were many and sent them away. This was done quite simply, but powerfully.
Focus on God and in His power as His child simply ask for God's wisdom on how to pray for your grandmother and bind the enemy in the name of Jesus. God is amazing when we totally see His Sovereignty over evil. Adventism never taught us that God is Sovereign over evil. Rather it taught us that there is a battle and we don't fully know the outcome of each skirmish. God is sovereign over evil - we must believe that and walk in that truth.
Hope this makes since and know I am holding you in prayer and praying for comfort to your aching heart.
Praying,
Keri |
8thday
Registered user
Username: 8thday
Post Number: 1069
Registered: 11-2007
| | Posted on Monday, July 13, 2009 - 8:45 am: | |
thank you JRT, this is how I am beginning to pray for all my SDA family, and my grandmother in earnest. My husband and children came under such turmoil that week that even my mom recognized it as an attack. My husband became so overwhelmed that he even started to have numbness and tingling on one side of his body.. which he did not tell me till I got back home. However she thought it was because Satan did not want me in the sda environment to hear "the truth" and was trying to keep me from coming. She did not come out and say that.. but she nearly said it. ha.
I know in the end, it will all be plain and make perfect sense - for the glory of God alone! Thank you gain.. |
Helovesme2
Registered user
Username: Helovesme2
Post Number: 2099
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Monday, July 13, 2009 - 9:17 am: | |
Praying with you Sondra! "For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but [they ARE] mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds." 2 Corinthians 10:4
I'm glad you are safely home, and that you have a clearer view of what you're dealing with. I think, sometimes, that seeing clearly is a major part of the battle. The devil is a master of illusion and deceit, but Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is still in control and is well able "to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him." Hebrews 7:25 |
Colleentinker
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Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 10128
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Monday, July 13, 2009 - 12:25 pm: | |
Sondra, I so know what you mean when you say your denial about it is finally broken. Mary is so right, that "seeing clearly is a major part of the battle."
It is somehow a great relief to actually understand what is going on with Adventism. They cannot "reform". It is built on deception and evil. Rather, God must call Adventists to Himself, and our prayers are the most powerful thing we can do. It's not about information, as Keri said.
When we KNOW that we're dealing with evil, we treat Adventism differently. We can't think we're dealing with people who are just sincerely (and benignly) mis-taught. They are living in spiritual darkness and death.
Praise God for revealing this truth to you!
Colleen |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 5206
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Monday, July 13, 2009 - 4:09 pm: | |
I think keri is so right, we can bind these demonic powers from speaking in Jesus name and so that they (people) can hear the gospel.
And I believe there are many who deal with Adventist relatives that need to learn how to do this, not that it's complicated, what complicates things is thinking we have no power at all over evil.
So we go letting Satan come in roaring like a lion into our homes and we end up intimidated by Adventist spewing.
Once Identifying what Adventism really is, as Keri demonstrated and realizing that we have power over evil through Jesus name we can put a stop to being rolled over and bullied by it.
River |
Flyinglady
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Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 7236
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Monday, July 13, 2009 - 4:15 pm: | |
Ever since the spirit of adventism has been mentioned on here, I have been praying that it be broken in my family and for all requesting prayers for them and their SDA families on this web site. God defeated Satan at the cross. What do we have to fear?? Nothing, Nada, Zilch!!!
Our awesome God is in control.
Diana L |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 5207
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Monday, July 13, 2009 - 7:39 pm: | |
People on the forum keep mentioning that Christ defeated Satan at the cross.
I suppose you take this from the scripture in Colossians 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
Colossians 2:15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a show of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
In the sense that God needed to do anything to defeat Satan, I don't think Satan was ever a threat to God.
Was that ever a purpose of the cross of Christ? The purpose of the cross of Christ was to take our sin upon himself, the spotless Lamb.
To put it another way,as Colleen says, Satan is Gods monkey. Maybe even less than that, God breathes and Satan withers and is blown away on the wind.
True he is our arch enemy, but that is only because man listened to him in the first place.
Could someone explain this view to me? I am not nit picking or contesting because Satan is a defeated foe from our stance.
I am just trying to remember any scripture that upholds this idea.
Even though Collossians 2:16 seems to indicate that, I am not sure that this is the context of his meaning.
Could someone enlighten me on that?
River |
Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 7238
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Monday, July 13, 2009 - 8:31 pm: | |
You are right River, Satan was never a threat to Jesus. It is just something I heard, but do not remember reading in the Bible or where I heard it. Thanks for reminding me to be Biblical.
Diana L |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 5208
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Monday, July 13, 2009 - 9:13 pm: | |
As I said, I wasn't knit picking you Dianna, we been friends a long time and I wouldn't want you to think I was.
Love you kiddo.
The phrase just kept haunting me when I saw it come up.
 River |
Nowisee
Registered user
Username: Nowisee
Post Number: 42
Registered: 5-2009
| | Posted on Monday, July 13, 2009 - 10:05 pm: | |
Lord, teach us how to pray! |
8thday
Registered user
Username: 8thday
Post Number: 1072
Registered: 11-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 14, 2009 - 8:21 am: | |
Wow - River - thanks for pointing that out. I have probably said that too without realizing what it implies. Do other Christians say that? Adventists don't even believe he was defeated then! Many of them seem to think he could still win!
Nowisee - that is my prayer right now too!! |
Hec
Registered user
Username: Hec
Post Number: 345
Registered: 3-2009
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 14, 2009 - 10:21 am: | |
I think that idea comes from the "Great Controversy" theme. There was war in haven. Still going on. But Satan was defeated at the cross. Even though we still have to defeat him daily. Go figure!
I've also heard the SDA say that Christ's purpose for dying was
1. to show that the law could not be changed.
2. to give us a second chance to prove the law could be kept.(This is EGW. I have the quotes.)
3. to vindicate God
4. to show to the universe that God was just.
5. That man's salvation is a by-product of that vindication.
Have any of you heard of those things?
Hec |
Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 2874
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 14, 2009 - 11:54 am: | |
I agree with Hec that this is a leftover idea from the "Great Controversy" worldview.
God was never in a struggle/"controversy" with satan. God has always been in complete, sovereign control over satan. He did not need to "defeat" him, except for on our behalf. The Bible says that Jesus has already "destroyed" (or "render[ed] powerless" as the NASB translates it) the devil, by His death, on our behalf:
quote:"Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,
15and might free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives." (Hebrews 2:14-15 NASB.)
He destroyed/rendered powerless the devil so that he would no longer have any power over us--but he never had any power with regard to GOD! Jesus did not need to "overcome" the devil--He has always been in complete and utter control of the devil! Unlike what Adventism teaches in their blasphemous "Great Controversy" worldview, the devil never had any power to question, "put on trial," or fight God!
Jeremy |
Jrt
Registered user
Username: Jrt
Post Number: 680
Registered: 10-2008
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 14, 2009 - 12:22 pm: | |
Jeremy,
So right! You see we become weak when we see Satan as an equal power with God and when we take as truth the whole Great Controversy theme.
Hec, I appreciate you listing things as you've done ... so true of Adventism. And might I add so false and as Jeremy says above, blasphemic.
Evil is a subset of God's universe - as so aptly pointed out by Colleen in another thread. When we are "in" Christ, Christ who is Sovereign has always had power over evil. It is hard, I know, to wrap our minds around this - being that the indoctrination is so thorough in Adventism. But it is a powerful paridigm shift when we fully believe and trust in God's Sovereignty over evil.
And as God's children and being "in" Christ we, then, too, have the power Christ has, over evil.
I have no power in and of myself - for apart from Christ I can do nothing. But Phil 4:13, "I can do all things through Him who strengthens me". This includes power over evil.
Isn't that the grandest thing you have ever heard!!
In Christ ... amazing this gift to be "in" Christ. Just amazing ... we are blessed.
Keri |
Asurprise
Registered user
Username: Asurprise
Post Number: 902
Registered: 7-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 14, 2009 - 5:36 pm: | |
Of course when I was an Adventist I was never taught that Satan was an equal power with God, but I WAS taught that God needed to prove to the universe that He is just.
I guess that must be an Ellenism? I wonder how many Ellenisms I have in my thinking? I'm praying that the Lord replace all of the Adventist baggage with His Spirit. |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 5210
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 14, 2009 - 6:33 pm: | |
Sondra,
I have never been one too go from church to church, or what I call Church hoppers so I don't know if other Christians say this or not.
I can only say that I don't remember ever hearing the phrase "Satan was defeated at the cross." Although I could have, but the phrase on the forum has been used many times, by many different people.
I has kind of bothered me for a long time, sort of like something you had for lunch just doesn't sit on your stomach well, you know?
I searched in my mind for a scripture that would fit and I just couldn't bring one to mind.
In the context Jeremy stated it fits, but in the thought context of the way it's meant, it does not seem to fit.
As Jeremy said, Jesus was always in complete and utter control of Satan and demons. I know of no moment in scripture where there was ever any indication that Jesus was not in complete control and that without fear of any kind.
Is it a leftover from Adventism? I don't know, but if it is we need to bring it out in the open and take care of it.
I do perfectly and fully understand that this might be the case.
Lets prove up on the statement, if it is in the Bible, somebody ought to know where it is.
It seems such a small thing, but it's no help if we sluff it off or ignore it and it might keep us from realizing other Biblical truths wouldn't you think?
I have had to change my mind so many times because of wrong thinking on certain scripture and continue to grow because of the forum, rather the precious friends in it.
I aim to take advantage of the forum while God has me here to learn and to grow.
River |
Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 2875
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 14, 2009 - 7:01 pm: | |
By the way, when I say that it is a leftover idea from the "Great Controversy" worldview, I'm not saying that Adventism even teaches that satan was defeated at the cross. What they really teach is that we have to help "God" defeat satan and overcome the "charges" that's he's brought against God! Right now, God Himself is still in jeopardy, according to Adventism.
Jeremy |
Jrt
Registered user
Username: Jrt
Post Number: 682
Registered: 10-2008
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 14, 2009 - 7:26 pm: | |
Jeremy,
I'm not sure, but maybe this is my own thinking or some sort of Adventism "double-speak". But I'm sure in some form it was taught in Adventism - that we help to vindicate God by living a perfect life ...
I think in Adventism I was taught that God is bigger than evil - BUT somehow there was this great big battle between good and evil all the time - and somehow it the victor centered on my choosing and behaving rightly. And so we never knew whether good would triumph or evil during these battles, because it was based on us. But in some ways God and Satan were somewhat on the same level and we were the ones to determine which one became the victor or the greater one. I'm not sure I'm articulating this well.
Does that resonate with you or any other formers?
It was kinda a "double-speak".
Keri |
Philharris
Registered user
Username: Philharris
Post Number: 1729
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 14, 2009 - 8:43 pm: | |
The nearest passage that I could locate to support the idea that Jesus defeated Satan at the cross, is this one:
quote:Col. 2:13-15 ESV
And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross. He disarmed the rulers and authorities and put them to open shame, by triumphing over them in him.
Of course, you will notice that Satan is not mentioned by name. Also, it simply says he "disarmed the rulers and authorities". Above all else, there certainly is no indication of an age long battle between Christ and Satan in this or any other Biblical passage.
Fearless Phil |
8thday
Registered user
Username: 8thday
Post Number: 1073
Registered: 11-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 15, 2009 - 9:38 am: | |
In what I was taught, Satan could still win if he was successful in keeping the bride from becoming spotless, because it was up to us to prove Jesus and the Father were right, we COULD keep the Law. If we failed to prove that, Satan could never be proven wrong in the universal courts. Pretty sick.
All Jesus did was win us the right to perfect ourselves. So... when we fail, we are lost and have failed God and allowed the enemy to triumph. That's a pretty heavy load.
Definitely not an "it is finished" scenario.
So, when an SDA says Jesus defeated Satan at the cross, not only is it coming from a false picture of a battle between Christ and Satan, but they don't even believe it.. a false statement they don't believe.. not just double speak.. but double false!! My brain hurts now.
(Message edited by 8thday on July 15, 2009) |
Animal
Registered user
Username: Animal
Post Number: 569
Registered: 7-2008
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 15, 2009 - 9:44 am: | |
....hands Sondra a large bottle of asprin...LOL LOL |
8thday
Registered user
Username: 8thday
Post Number: 1078
Registered: 11-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 15, 2009 - 10:15 am: | |
Thanks Animal! I'll try not to overdose. |
Hec
Registered user
Username: Hec
Post Number: 348
Registered: 3-2009
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 15, 2009 - 11:13 am: | |
Adventist believe that "the war" is over and that Jesus won, or more exactly WILL win when He comes and destroy Satan. However, there are battles that we need to fight and win. If we win, we will be added to the "church triumphant", if we lose, we also will be lost.
That's the insecurity of salvation for SDA. We need to win those battles with he help of Jesus (HS), but we still have to win in order to be saved.
The difference between SDA and Gospel is that in the Gospel Jesus already won and He just imputes us that win. We already won in Him. What a difference!
Hec |
Animal
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Username: Animal
Post Number: 571
Registered: 7-2008
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 15, 2009 - 11:22 am: | |
AMEN Hec, AMEN !!!! |
Helovesme2
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Username: Helovesme2
Post Number: 2104
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 15, 2009 - 11:31 am: | |
I agree that many Adventists believe the war is over and that Jesus won, but Adventism teaches, in it's prophetic construct, that the war will not be totally over till 'sin and sinners are no more' at the end of Satan (who carries the sins of the righteous with him into the fires of annihilation). If you want to check my facts, try the "Great Controversy."
The cross, according to SDA theology, simply made it possible for sin to be taken from us and placed in the Heavenly Sanctuary - to pile up until the end finally comes. As you say, more exactly the war WILL BE WON when Jesus comes and destroys Satan. Just as, according to SDA doctrine, those recued from sin WILL BE safe to save before Jesus comes to claim them as his own (He can't claim who He wills before that? Hmm.) |
Hec
Registered user
Username: Hec
Post Number: 351
Registered: 3-2009
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 15, 2009 - 11:41 am: | |
Helovesme2,
Remember that SDA speaks out of both sides of their mouths.
They preach that the war was won this Saturday, and Next Saturday the preach that the war will be won when we present a perfect character. So depending to whom they are talking, they can "pull" out of the hat whatever cat will make them look good.
For example, I was talking to a church member about the fact that EGW says that Christ died to give us a second probation, not to save us, and that the Bible says that Christ died to save us. His answer was: "that about means the same thing". He couldn't see the difference. In his mind no matter which way you put it, for him it was the same, so there was no contradiction btetween the Bible and EGW.
Hec |
Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 2876
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 15, 2009 - 12:00 pm: | |
Sondra,
I think you described it very accurately!
If anyone wants to look into this teaching of Adventism further, see the following article by SDA theologian Dr. Norman R. Gulley, entitled "The Cosmic Controversy: World View for
Theology and Life," published in the Fall 1996 Journal of the Adventist Theological Society: http://www.atsjats.org/publication_file.php?pub_id=280&journal=1&type=pdf
In the above article, Gulley says that every created being gets a "vote" on whether "God" or "Satan" is to be "God," including all of the aliens, and that the vote has to be unanimous! Take a look at the following quote:
quote:It is necessary that the truth about God, Christ and Satan be made manifest. The real story of all three is involved in the cosmic controversy. The revelation of who they really are must be made so that all created beings, angelic (fallen and unfallen), humans (redeemed and lost) and the unfallen inhabitants of worlds afar, may all vote unanimously on who is right and who is wrong. Only one side can win, yet all from both sides must vote, and vote the same. This is done with complete freedom, and is done purely on the evidence given by both sides."
So everyone, including the aliens, has to "vote" "God" into "office" (or to remain "in office") as God! However, if everybody decides to vote for satan, then satan would be the "God" of the universe!!! What a blasphemous, horrific teaching!
Here's another horrific quote from the article:
quote:"Insights into the Cosmic Controversy
"Lucifer at the Throne. Come with me to heaven. We are gathered around the throne of God. The Father is there. Christ is there. Lucifer is there. Christ is the One through whom the Father has created all things, and this includes Lucifer (Heb 1:1-2; Col 1:16-17). What is it like to gaze on God in His throne room?"
Jeremy
P.S. It's not Biblical to teach that aliens have to vote on who is to be God.
(How's that for an understatement?  ) |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 10134
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 15, 2009 - 12:07 pm: | |
Yes, Hec, Adventists do rationalize the plain meaning of Scripture. Because it has come to their attention within the last 15 or 20 years that the Bible says we can know we are saved, they simply play with words in their heads until they see no difference between their true belief and the biblical statement.
Even though they speak out of both sides of their mouths and would never SAY (or think they believe) that Jesus' blood defiles and Satan cleanses, still this heresy is precisely what underlies Adventist theology. If one pursues them with questions, they well admit that Satan is the scapegoat and Jesus' work was not finished at the cross. It is merely self-deception that keeps them from admitting the true implications of their belief.
The fact that they have rationalized their belief does not negate its meaning and effect on them. We can look at Eve and see how subtly she was deceived. We can look at her and see that when she stopped obeying God's word and fell to discussing it instead, she fell into deception.
This is what Adventists do. They refuse to simply trust and obey the literal word of God, and they fall into deception and heresy. The fact that they are not aware of their own deception does not excuse them any more than Eve was excused.
Ultimately, we are accountable for acting in deception when we have the word of God.
I totally know that having been bound in deception for over 40 years makes me vulnerable to deception. I KNOW this. I pray that God will give me His wisdom and discernment and protect me from deception and self-deception and teach me truth and reality.
Colleen |
Nowisee
Registered user
Username: Nowisee
Post Number: 44
Registered: 5-2009
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 15, 2009 - 10:36 pm: | |
Jeremy, thank you for posting those quotes. We need to be reminded what the fruit of Adventism grows into. Those statements make me feel sick! |
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