| Author | Message | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 5183 Registered: 9-2006  |
Well, like Dennis said, Two dilapidated out houses and a cemetery, bout all that's left. River | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 1521 Registered: 6-2006  |
Jeremy, and at the same time denying Jesus 3 times! Leigh Anne | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 1522 Registered: 6-2006 |
Dennis, my pastor once noted that because cults have a works righteous salvation, they don't need the cross. Interesting that SDA's, JW's Mormons make it a point not to have crosses. Leigh Anne | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1717 Registered: 4-2000  |
Leigh Anne, Interestingly, Mary Baker Eddy had alot of commonalities with Ellen White. For example, both Ellen and Mary were fascinated with the popular "water cure" of their day. Both Adventist and Christian Science churches have a prescribed weekly study plan that is meticulously adhered to. Also, both women were sickly much of their lives, and they were deprived from attending school regularly in their youth. Of course, both women were founders of their respective religious denomination. Do CS churches have traditional crosses on their buildings? I know that they have a trademarked "pointed crown and cross seal." Mary Baker Eddy died in 1910, and Ellen White died in 1915. After her third marriage, Mary Baker Eddy became a wealthy lady with far greater book sales than Ellen White had. Oh yes, both the CS and SDA churches have a so-called "health" message. Ellen believed that people die just like animals, and Mary believed that death doesn't even exist. Dennis Fischer | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 1680 Registered: 7-2003  |
While we're off topic a bit and talking about other infamous leaders of the time, I thought it fascinating that Darwin was developing his 'theory' of evolution during the same era. We are going through Focus on the Family's "truth project" right now, and tonight was about science and origins. One of the things they mentioned was Darwin's "finch beak" proof of evolution was documented in 1835. Origins of Species was published in 1859. I found it quite ironic how many pearls of error were developed in the mid 1800s that still exist today. Did EGW ever have any visions about Darwin? Seems God might have been warning people about that one rather than skirt lengths. But that's just me... | ||
| Nowisee Registered user Username: Nowisee Post Number: 25 Registered: 5-2009 |
Thank you, thank you, River for your teaching & Bible verses. I so needed to hear this tonight. This spiritual aspect is the missing piece of the puzzle--I need to keep hearing this & understanding it. After I read your post, I prayed immediately for my family & husband's family in the name of Jesus & through His blood for the spirit of Adventism to be broken in their lives. These deceiving spirits have so many that we love bound & blind to the pure gospel...we need to pray & not give up in asking our Father to free our friends & relatives! (And all those bound up in legalism.) | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1718 Registered: 4-2000 |
Melissa, The SDA view of death (soul sleep/conditionalism) makes a mockery of their creation stance. Oh well, we already knew that legalists are never consistent in their theology. Strict evolutionists would certainly agree with devout Adventists that people die just like animals (having no immaterial side). Dennis Fischer | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 1681 Registered: 7-2003 |
chuckle, Dennis :-D. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 10114 Registered: 12-2003  |
Hi, all—I'm sorry I didn't get to post last night. It was a very late night by the time we helped Dale and Carolyn box up the books and get ready to pack up for the Ohio venue. First, I want to say again—indeed, emphasize that we are not dealing with "bad teaching". We are dealing with principalities and powers when we deal with Adventism. When our families get angry and "hurt" over our leaving, that reaction is not true "hurt". "Hurt" is when someone has been betrayed or violated or transgressed against. When we accept Jesus and are born again, passing from death to life, we are not hurting our family. Rather, we are shining the light on darkness. We are in no way being disloyal or treacherous to them. We are not shunning them or rejecting them. We are new in Jesus, and we are actually able to love our families even more profoundly than before. Have you noticed that the point where many Adventists show their most vigorous anger or resistance is at the point when we state unequivocally that we are saved, that nothing can snatch us out of God's hand? It is when we declare our certain salvation and eternal life or declare Jesus to be enough that they get the most reactive. This reaction is the mark of an anti-christ spirit. Their "hurt" is not true "hurt". It is a spiritual reaction to having their darkness exposed. I'll write a bit more about this in another place... Yesterday was very full. The morning meeting was good. Dale talked about ministering to transitioning Adventists to an audience of several local pastors and Bible Study Fellowship leaders. It was actually amazing to see how many local Christians came and were really happy to learn about Adventism. After the meeting we took Paul Carden of CFAR and Jim Valentine of CARIS to Andrews campus. I asked them if they wanted to eat at the cafeteria or get food before, and Paul said he wanted the full experience. So we went to the cafeteria where Paul had some sort of vege-steak. I asked him how it was, and he said in his own humorous way, "Some things are only meant to be experienced once." We took them to the "Garden of Grace" where I had them read the legend explaining approaching the commandments (representing God the Father) by means of the cross or by the other way of the Spirit. Paul definitely had reactions to that and took several pictures. He was just taking in the data. Both Jim and Paul were discomfited and puzzled by the sculpture across from the church with the tipped and distorted cross and the circle beside it. Interestingly, there is no placard explaining the sculpture. There is no name given, nor is the artist's name displayed. Paul made some calls on campus and found someone in the PR department who was able to xerox the article about the sculpture that appeared in the campus magazine in 1985, the year it was made. It identified the sculptor as Wayne Hazen, a former teacher of art at Andrews. It quoted him as saying he chose the symbol of the cross as the most common symbol of Christ's human mission on earth. The circle, he said, is one of the oldest symbols of God, but pagans lost sight of the meaning and began to worship the symbol. He said the circle is one of the most powerful symbols of God's faithfulness. So there's a sculpture of a tilted, distorted cross with an ancient pagan symbol that's said to be representing God's faithfulness... Sigh. We took Carden and Valentine to the heritage library and the seminary as well. Within the Adventist heritage library is a study room in which is a large, glass-covered bookcase that nearly covers one wall. This collection of books is Ellen White's personal library. There were probably several hundred books in that case on all sorts of subjects: theology, history, diet, cooking, etc etc. I even saw one that was titled something close to "Sights and Shadows of Spiritism". (I can't quite remember the first word, but it began with "S" and I think it was "sights"...) As Richard said, what 19th century woman had a library like that? (For that matter, what 19th century man had one?) She certainly had A LOT of potential source material... In one room was a collection of papier mache beasts from Revelation. They had been made for an evangelist in about 1906, and they would be brought out to the platform to illustrate the prophecies in the day before slides/videos. They were about three feet in length and correspondingly tall. The beast with the seven heads and ten horns was wild! I'll write about the evening in the next post! Colleen | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 7198 Registered: 3-2004  |
I know I put on here once, recently, Bad Theology. I do know it is more then bad theology. It is principalities and powers with which we fight when dealing with adventism. It is spiritual warfare. I have become very aware of it on CARM, recently. There is a man there who says when we reject EGW, we reject Jesus and he refuses to see it any other way. Needless to say, I am praying for him and have put his name in the slot at my church. When I pray for adventists, and those coming under their influence, I ask God to break the spirit of adventism. I am continuing to pray for you and Richard, the Ratzlaffs and Paul Carden as well as the church leaders where you are and where you are going. God bless you and keep you in your travels. Diana L (Message edited by Flyinglady on July 09, 2009) | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 5186 Registered: 9-2006 |
You got me about ready to run down the road yelling and screaming now! Just kidding. Weird.  You are feeding my imagination for the macabre story I am writing. What material! A twisted sharp pointed horned cross with a circle through it. Well... here's to you for not actually losing your lunch Colleen, it wouldn't have been lady like to puke. River | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2857 Registered: 10-2004  |
Colleen, Just curious: does the Andrews cafeteria serve meat? Jeremy | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 10115 Registered: 12-2003 |
Jeremy, I saw no indication of meat. The evening meeting was also well-attended with around 250 people present. We sang "In Christ Alone" to begin, and then Richard and I gave our faith story before Dale taught on the Sabbath and the new covenant. Apparently a lot of people were impacted and "saw" the new covenant sort-of for the first time clearly. The audience was full of men and women taking notes. The associate pastor of The Chapel, which hosted the meetings, is going to be preaching a series this fall on—guess what? the Ten Commandments. Apparently this man spent about an hour with Dale this morning before Dale and Carolyn left MI for Ohio, and he is seeing the new covenant with new understanding. And the senior pastor passed Dale and Carolyn while they were packing up and said, "It's about the covenant, right?!" Praise God! Apparently one local Christian businessman has done, for many years, a lot of business with the Adventist church. He was deeply convicted when he heard Paul Carden say with passion that Christians have no business partnering corporately with Adventists (not meaning that they shouldn't have individual relationships, but not corporate cooperation). He said Adventism was full of half truths and heresy and that it obscures the gospel. He was intense when he repeated this position during the Q & A session last night. I was also able to state the implications of Satan as the scape goat again. Dale and Carolyn sold a lot of books; it was encouraging that so many local church and Bible study leaders were in attendance. Tonight we're in Ohio; the meetings tomorrow night begin at 7:00. More later! And please keep praying. We all need it! Colleen | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 886 Registered: 7-2007 |
I'm praying Colleen. It's important to tell Christians about Adventism, so that they don't get decieved into believing it. Awhile back as I was answering the phone at work, I happened to mention having been an Adventist. I don't know how the subject came up, but it did. Anyway the caller said I ought to give a talk at his church. I didn't say much to that and the subject was dropped. I wish now that I would have agreed to do that even though it would have been scary to talk in front of a big group of people. | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 7208 Registered: 3-2004 |
Continuing to pray Colleen. God is going ahead of you and preparing the way. I pray that the spirit of adventism be cleared out of the way and that all attending will know what adventism believes and teaches. Diana L | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 10116 Registered: 12-2003 |
Tonight was the first meeting in Miamisburg. It was small—almost all the people present were former Adventists, but it was dynamic and warm. There was lots of fellowship and talking...and also quite a bit of theological and spiritual need. First of all, Sheryl Barker (Raven) and her husband Rick (Ric_b) and another local former, Ken Christman, had done all the prep work behind the scenes. They worked at a disadvantage because the church that provided the venue just happened to be having a large African short-term mission trip that took all the primary church leaders including a family of formers who help lead the weekly Bible study with the Barkers that has been going on in this area for several years. So the Barkers and the Christmans have had to publicize and organize a meeting without benefit of the help of a local pastor. But the meeting was good; another former known on the forum as Tdf, Tracy Fletcher, led a couple of songs with his wife (Tracy is a worship leader at a Christian church now several miles from Miamisburg), and Ken and Rick opened the meeting. Richard and I gave our faith story, and Dale presented his comparison of Adventism and evangelical Christianity. Actually, he left more time that usual for questions because the audience was mostly "formers", and most of them knew the outline of the Adventist issues. There were good questions, including one about soul sleep and hell. We discovered that there were actually several people attending who were, in some ways, very tenuous about their doctrinal beliefs. One woman talked to me afterward who has accepted Jesus and worships in a Christian church, but she says she can't read the Bible without being confused, and she fears being deceived again. We talked about her needing to renounce the spirit of Adventism and to ask God to replace it with the Holy Spirit and to teach her to trust His word and explain it to her as He knows she needs to understand it. She said she had gotten free from an abusive Adventist church, and she is SO relieved, but her agnostic brother had planted doubt and confusion in her mind regarding the authenticity of Scripture, etc. I told her that God will never trick her, that we actually learned from Ellen that God would trick us if it served an ulterior motive (think "God held his hand over the mistake in the 1843 date"...), but that in reality the trick came from Ellen. God never lies about anything. We can trust His word as it is written. Tomorrow there will be a lunch for all the formers in the area, so I'm looking forward to spending more time with everyone. It was fun to meet another forum member as well: ClintonC. Such fun to see everyone! Today our host took Richard and me on a tour of Kettering. I have to say that Kettering hospital surprised me. It is quite different in "flavor" from Loma Linda Univ. Med Center. First, we walked into the hospital through the emergency entrance, and on the right was a real coffee shop contracted out to a local coffee company. We came across another such coffee shop in a different area of the hospital as well. Moreover, the cafeteria serves all kinds of meat. In Loma Linda, you can't buy real coffee anywhere in the hospital, nor does the cafeteria serve meat. It doesn't have pepper on the tables, either. I would have thought Loma Linda would certainly be more liberal than the midwest, but as I asked questions, it became clear to me what at least some differences are. Loma Linda is under the banner of the General Conference. It is a flagship Adventist institution, established by Ellen herself. Kettering hospital is not under the GC banner but is, apparently, under the umbrella of the Columbia Union. The entire Kettering Health Network, which is Adventist-owned, consists not only of two "Adventist" hospitals but also some non-SDA osteopathic hospitals as well. One of the two SDA hospitals in the network has a Baptist, not SDA, administrator. In many ways, this area has a rather liberal Adventist profile. It's all rather interesting—the difference from Loma Linda is quite startling to me. It's certainly VERY different from Berrien Springs! Please continue to pray for safety and God's blessing, that all that needs to be said will be said and that God will nurture each person present as He knows each needs to be nurtured. Thank you so much for sharing in this tour! Colleen | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 892 Registered: 7-2007 |
Wow, those hospitals that serve coffee and meat etc. are simply more deceptive! People will be more taken in by the idea that they are Christian. (People wouldn't have joined the Adventists, Mormons, J.Witnesses, etc. in the first place if they'd seriously studied their Bibles!) It sounds like the "Tour of Encouragement" is winning souls to the Lord!!!! ) | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 7220 Registered: 3-2004 |
Colleen, thank you so much for keeping us here at home updated. I would so much like to be with you and experiencing God's work as you move place to place. I will repeat WOW on Kettering serving coffee and meat. It is very deceptive, but then I am not really surprised at the deception practiced by adventists. Sorry, if I sound judgemental. I do not like deception. Honesty works best with me. Diana L | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 10121 Registered: 12-2003 |
Well, I agree, Diana and Asurprise! Yesterday was a wonderful day with formers in Miamisburg/Dayton. We had lunch in the atrium of the Miamisburg Mall; Ken Christman and Rick and Sheryl Barker organized the event. We had catered Indian food and Olive Garden pasta and salad and breadsticks. Desserts were pot-luck. It was a delicious meal, and we enjoyed spending time with a great "collection" of formers including several member of the forum: Viv, Mary, ClintonC, Sheryl and Rick, Seekinglight, Bobalou, as well as some others who get Proclamation. While we ate there was an absolute cloudburst of drenching rain outside. The afternoon meeting varied a bit from previous venues because the audience was mostly former Adventists. Dale went through his presentation on ministering to formers as an overview, and then he did a Bible study on eternal life and its implications for death and the continuation of our spirits with Jesus. It was a really good study, and it evoked some good questions. The evening meeting was powerful. Dale's presentation on the Sabbath and the new covenant is profound, and he ends with a clear gospel call. It was very moving, and we had another collection of good questions for the panel. The praise team from Rick and Sheryl's church led two worship songs last night to start the service, and Sheryl gave her faith story. It also was moving. One unexpected thing happened yesterday; an elderly SDA man and his wife walked into the meeting right at the end of the afternoon session. The man walked up to Dale, roughly and painfully grabbed Dale's shoulder and began to berate him. Richard and another man immediately walked over and stood by Dale as Dale told the man to take his hands off him—which he did. He had not been there for the meeting, but he launched into a tirade about the Sabbath and the law. His anger and disdain were palpable. Dale remained calm and gracious and engaged. He even took the man through texts in Galatians, but the man stubbornly refused to acknowledge what Dale actually was saying. Dale finally told him that if he would come back in the evening, he'd give him Cultic Doctrine and Truth about Adventist Truth. The man grudgingly assented. He did return, but in the evening he buttonholed another person and tried to insist that we and Christianity in general aren't teaching Christ's second coming to destroy the world. (Actually, Jesus' second coming is to claim His bride! The focus is glorification, not absolute destruction!) This morning we went to church with Rick and Sheryl and then had lunch with them. And now we're heading west! I'll still post about our trip back to California as we proceed. Dale and Carolyn are visiting some old childhood stompin' grounds during the next weeks as well as sight-seeing in some new areas. We're going to go back and move my moms stuff into her permanent apartment in the retirement village. She had surgery on her broken elbow last Friday, and I'm so grateful to my friend who has taken her under wing while I've been gone. We also have to work on Proclamation...and then we'll fly to Huntsville to join Dale and Carolyn for the last set of meetings on this summer tour. More later! Colleen | ||
| Skeeter Registered user Username: Skeeter Post Number: 92 Registered: 12-2007 |
Colleen, Thank you so much for the updates :-) I am so sorry that Dale had such an encounter with that man... if only he HAD been there for the meeting to see what was actually being said, just maybe something would have touched his heart. I am wondering,,,, are these meetings being recorded ? Even though we greatly appreciate the updates on here.. will there be something later either on the FAF or LAM sites so we can listen and hopefully share those meetings ? |
