| Author | Message | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 875 Registered: 7-2007 |
In 2 Corinthians 3:7,8 it contrasts the "ministry of death, written and engraved on stones" with the "ministry of the Spirit." Then, in verse 14, it talks about the "veil" which "remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament" and goes on to say that the "veil is lifted in Christ." Verse 16 says that "when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away." Adventists need to turn to the Lord and ask Him to show them the truth. Until they do, the devil has legal ground in their life to keep them in darkness. I've pleaded with my Seventh-day Adventist mother to pray that God would show her the truth, because if she would, the Lord would lead her to the gospel of the Bible. She doesn't want to pray that because she thinks that she HAS the "truth" and that she would "hurt the Lord's feelings" if she did. God loves everybody so MUCH that He would certainly save anybody who really asked Him for the truth. Dianne | ||
| Psalm107v2 Registered user Username: Psalm107v2 Post Number: 337 Registered: 10-2008  |
This verse is one of the ones that hit me when I first heard the gospel. The 10 commandments, though I found it hard to believe, were written on stone and called the ministry of death. It was undeniable if I were to believe the Bible is true. It took me a while to further understand the ministy of Spirit but thank God hte veil has been lifted | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 10105 Registered: 12-2003  |
Dianne, You're right. There is evil at the core, and we all have to face the fact that we've been deceived and repent. It is in repentance that we are set free. 2 Cor 3 is SO powerful! Colleen | ||
| Gcfrankie Registered user Username: Gcfrankie Post Number: 505 Registered: 1-2007 |
Psalm 107v2, I totally agree with you about praising God for lifting the veil of deception from our eyes. What did it for me was reading the book of Galatians. I just love that book. Paul pulled not punches with them. I know the sda's do not like Paul and it took me being away from them to understand why. The way I figured it is because Jesus spoke in parables and they could twist Jesus' words where Paul speaks bluntly and openly and it made it harder for 'you know who' to twist his meanings. And that I can say the ol devil does not like. I put the veil and a dirty window in the same category, they distort everything until the veil is removed and the dirty window is washed clean and you can truely see. Gail | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 5167 Registered: 9-2006  |
There is no question that there is some kind of veil over their eyes, my question is, do I preach the gospel to them without being expressly led by the Holy Spirit one on one? Of course it is different to preach the gospel in a public setting, it's seems like that is like shooting into a flock of quail hoping to hit one or two or three. I just don't believe they can be educated out. They already have Bibles to read and they say they believe in the Bible. You take the fellow that Philip caught up too in the chariot, the fellow admitted he needed understanding and was seeking so Philip was able to preach the gospel correctly to him. One person said "you just preach the gospel to them and they either accept it or reject", but they already have the gospel there in God's own word and have already rejected it, can I then make them accept it by insistence and force? If the Holy Spirit has done the preparing of their heart then leads me to help them by preaching the simple gospel to them, I can see where that will be of avail. I am not arguing against you preaching to your relatives you understand, I am just trying to ascertain what is right for me. River | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 873 Registered: 5-2007 |
I wish I could say exactly the right words that would express the quandry. Not to instigate consternation but to say what the problems are. In my experience, the emphasis is that we have been taught that basing our salvation on a supposed hope and nothing more will prove our ruin. Then we are shown so many passages of qaulifiers and warnings that delienate the expected fruits (works and or results) of the Christian. Thus , while we were also taught that Christ covers our failings and inperfections, we were taught that no license for sin exists and that if we are not making progress in measureable fruits, talents, results, then our faith is dead. "It is not the occasional deed or misdeed, but the general direction of the life" The other attitude or position is that God died upon the cross because the law could not be done away with. (I am not so sure I accept that position anymore). I have read here somewhere that there is no Biblical authority to subdivide the law by categories. Yet , I have also read here that the 10C of the OT contained 9 moral laws and one ceremonial law. That is dividing the law. To my thinking , I consider all of them moral. Which is the main pivot point. Do I accept that the 4th C was truly ceremonial and a shadow or was the day itself blessed and in perpetuity a memorial to creation. The Sabbath rest in Christ may very well paralel to the standing 10 moral laws. Jim | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 874 Registered: 5-2007 |
Consider if you will, If every argument about the methodology and our standing before God is as it is spoken in the NT Gospel is understood and accepted. For The SDA, they are very wary of any idea that suggests that the Law itself is aborgated. Rather, from what I gather in converstations and past recall is they take Galatians and Paul's writings as a "point of view" to express the avenue by which sanctifacation is accomplished through Christ. They maintain, that the objective of living by The Spirit will (eventualy) produce results that mirror the 10C on every point. Citing that Paul said , "I would not know what sin was except for the law". Thus , while in the OT , the law was a taskmaster in that we attempted to accomplish the will of God by works, in the NC (the theory goes)Salvation is accomplished by the redemption of Christ for past sins , however, there remains no further sacrifice for wilful sin etc... This caveat, I believe is what steers the SDA viewpoint back to mirroring the 10C law as the objective in perpetuity. Then Rev. is cited, "who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus" When you read the scrpiture that lists all the types of sinners who will NOT be included in heaven. I am perplexed that it means that yes indeed, you can be excluded. While at the same time, it could interpreted to suggest (by default),that once Christ translates us in to our new bodies at the resurection, we will no longer be afflicted or have a propenisty to those sins, not necessarily that we overcame them before death. (This sounds like reasoning of having your cake and eating it too.) To the SDA mindset, the problem of letting go the mirror (objective, pattern) of the law does not makes siense in view of all the admonintions contained in the NT. I believe it is not because an SDA member refuses to accept a paticular passage, it is because they are trying to incorporate both the Gospel and the Admonitions. The thought I have had for some time now is that each book of the NT gives the same truths from a different approach, or emphasis. Some or more pragmatic while Paul places emphasis of living by the Spirit. This then also leads to defining or expressing what living by the Spirit is. That in itself is an edless subjective subject that cannot be objectively defined between two people. If we all claim to be led by the same Spirit, either we are all right or somebody is wrong. Once again we start listing off tests or other means by proving who is right. It can't be done. To say look at the scripture, we all already do that! Interpretation is by conviction and each man stands before God whether his faith is weak or strong. Jim | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 880 Registered: 7-2007 |
Jim, you seem to be wondering how we KNOW that we're saved when the Bible seems to be saying so many things. What you need is the sense of the GUARANTEE/DOWN PAYMENT inside you Who is the Holy Spirit. I'll explain more in a bit... I think you wrote what Ellen White said: "basing our salvation on a supposed hope and nothing more will prove our ruin." Jim, the Seventh-day Adventist "hope" IS a supposed hope. Ellen White keeps it that way because she wrote that no one can say or feel that they are saved. What Adventist then can say or feel they are saved? No, they can only say; "I HOPE I WILL be saved!" Her (Ellen White's) words "It's not the occasional deed or misdeed, but the general direction of the life," is flat wrong. Think about it. Those words put your attention squarely on the "direction of your life" instead of on Jesus, doesn't it? When a person accepts Christ, they WERE IN Christ when He lived a perfect life. That means that they are accounted righteous from the moment they accept Him. Let me get back to the GUARANTEE though. HE is the only way we know that we ARE saved. Romans 8:9-11 says that if someone doesn't have the Holy Spirit that person DOES NOT belong to Christ. It says that if the person has the Spirit, that Spirit Who raised Jesus from the dead will also give that person life. Read Ephesians 1:13,14 which says that when you believe on Jesus you ARE SEALED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT WHO IS THE GUARANTEE OF YOUR INHERITANCE. Do Adventists have THIS seal??? Dianne | ||
| Indy4now Registered user Username: Indy4now Post Number: 624 Registered: 2-2008  |
just to add a little to your post Dianne... The Holy Spirit is Who testifies that we are children of God. Paul lists completely what the fruit of the Holy Spirit are. If we are sealed with the Holy Spirit, our lives will begin to produce those fruit... against which is no law. (Gal 5) So why depend on the law? Paul is very clear that either we live by the law or by the Spirit... not a combination of the two. ~vivian | ||
| Akweavers Registered user Username: Akweavers Post Number: 152 Registered: 8-2008 |
Just as a note, I studied the Rev. statement about "keep the commandandments of God..." and I learned that the original word is the same word Jesus used when he said I give you a new commandment..and it is not the same word that is used for the word commandment when it is talking about the mosaic law or ten commandment law if you will. | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 882 Registered: 7-2007 |
Jim; I would like to add that the Bible doesn't split the law into "moral" and "ceremonial." The law is just the law. It was... 1. not given to Gentiles (see Romans 2:14) 2. started at Sinai, except for the fourth which started some weeks earlier at the giving of the manna (see Exodus 16:23) 3. was not given to Israel's forefathers (see Deuteronomy 5:3) 4. read the new covenant. The word "testament" means "covenant." You'll notice that nine of the commandments are repeated in the New Testament, but now the Holy Spirit lives inside believers and writes them on the believer's hearts. 5. none of the Sabbaths are required anymore. Not the yearly/seasonal feasts, nor the monthly New Moons, nor the weekly Sabbaths. (see Colossians 2:16,17) Dianne | ||
| Nowisee Registered user Username: Nowisee Post Number: 21 Registered: 5-2009 |
River--I know we aren't to witness or share unless led by the Holy Spirit (which, in real life, is such a new concept for me--I never really knew what it meant as an SDA!) It's made more difficult as we are trying to be the witnesses God wants us to be because SDAs use the word/phrase "gospel" & "preach the gospel" all the time! It just means something totally different than the definition from the Bible! As I am growing in understanding, I realize that having EGW's writings in my mind was like a block to the Holy Spirit as I read the Bible. When I quit reading her, I saw all kinds of things there that I had never seen & I had been in church & Bible classes my whole life. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 5174 Registered: 9-2006 |
Nowisee, I pray that we all grow in understanding, I don't want to be found using the Bible as a 10 lb. Sledge hammer on Adventists. we, as Christians grow together because we are one in heart in Christ Jesus. Taking you back to the time you spoke of, reading Ellen White and believing in Adventism, you did not have that privilege of oneness of heart in love that we have here now. Our hearts should go out to the ones that cannot experience this with us. It is a most treasured thing to me. Oh sure, in time we will disagree on some point or other, but that will not or should not destroy true oneness of heart. If it does, something has gone terribly wrong. Sunday I drove 200 miles and back to see Sondra, Bob and Jan drove about 180, Phil and Jan drove about 300. Sondra mentioned that her folks said to her "These people are driving that many miles to see you?" You see, they cannot possibly understand that sort of thing. The blindness of Adventism deprives them of that. You see, I didn't drive up there to see what Sondra was like, I already knew Sondra, I made the trip to be with her and to fellowship a few minutes. This kind of thing doesn't fall out of trees, it is an act of God. If you drive across town to see what I am like, you done drove to far, all you will see is an old funky bod in all its faults and failures. If I hadn't of known Sondra before I got there, I wouldn't have known Sondra after I left. Before it's over you will see miracles that before, you would not have dreamed of. I am so glad you are here and that you are no longer deprived of experiencing Christ love and all the blessing it brings. River | ||
| Nowisee Registered user Username: Nowisee Post Number: 23 Registered: 5-2009 |
Yes, the fellowship is a precious miracle that I hadn't found before--it was surface in Adventism--like, generally speaking, if one of my SDA friends said "Oh, I'll pray for you" when I was going thru difficulties, it was more like, "oh, I'll be thinking of you" than actually praying. I did that, too, so I know that's how it was. (I'm not meaning every SDA did this, but the people I grew up with, went to school & church with--well, this was the essence of the praying.) I never really experienced someone actually taking time to pray for me, with me or my family--when Christians on this board say they will pray, they actually do it! And pouring our hearts out to God during our formers group here is real & powerful! I may not have explained this too well, but it's one of the big differences I've noticed. One example that knocked me over is at the second FAF weekend we attended, a woman came up & greeted us--we didn't really even know her, & she said, "I have been praying for you since last year." First, why would she even remember us & second, why would she have cared enough about us to do so? Wow, I thought, this that we have found is real...and my very Sabbath-y husband has been attending Sundays, hearing the word preached, ever since that second FAF!!! A real miracle, an answer to prayer! Maybe one of you on this board is that woman... | ||
| Benevento Registered user Username: Benevento Post Number: 298 Registered: 4-2005 |
Someone gave me a neat little book titled 10 prayers that God always says Yes to--or maybe it is God always answers--I have loaned it out so I don't have it now but I can testify that God did answer my prayer--the first of the 10 was when we pray for it that God will lead us into truth. People have often mentioned on this website that God has a sense of humor and He did in this case--I met a lady who had just joined the SDA church and she invited me to Sabbath School I had not been attending any church and was most reluctant to go back to the SDA church but I did, as she assured me that this SS class was different-- and it was--we studied the books of the Bible and started with Galatians--the leader was so great and she had told me about Bible Study Fellowship, so I found that, and after studying Galations determined I was through with the SDA church forever We must have studied a great series on the life of Christ before that, and that was a blessing to me-anyway as things worked out I attended Bible Study Fellowship and decided what I needed in a church and all the pieces fit together so nicely. The SS teacher and her husband have since left the church, and are thrilled with the New Covenant. This forum and Dales books helped me too, I certainly don't want to belittle the work done on this forum--it's such a lifeline!! I do praise God for the opportunities that opened up for me!! | ||
| Benevento Registered user Username: Benevento Post Number: 299 Registered: 4-2005 |
I don't think it is just SDA's who have the veil, I truly think it is understanding the new covenant that lifts the veil and understanding that when we surrender our lives to Christ and the Holy Spirit indwells us we are free, and are not working for our salvation. The Catholic church is the most famous, but some Protestant churches mix the two | ||
| Nowisee Registered user Username: Nowisee Post Number: 31 Registered: 5-2009 |
Yes, Benevento, you're right. The ministry of Bob George is a treasure I have just found & he really focuses on teaching the new covenant. The NC is SO clearly presented in the Bible--I can't believe I never saw it before. It really is plainly taught. I think that the SDA belief is that the new covenant is the ten commandments written on the heart, right? Correct me if this is wrong... | ||
| Seekr777 Registered user Username: Seekr777 Post Number: 779 Registered: 1-2003  |
Nowisee, I first read "Classic Christianity" by Bob George, he has several other books which I've gotten as well You can also subscribe to podcasts of his sermons if you choose. Richard rtruitt@mac.com . |
