| Author | Message | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 7097 Registered: 3-2004  |
I just thought of how I can use the ToE. As a therapist I know that if a toe(s) is injured or gone it affects a person's balance and ability to walk correctly. They may even fall because of the hurt/absence of it. Without the ToE many people will not be walking with God correctly. The ToE is there to give balance and with it one walks without falling. Just a simplistic way to say the ToE is necessary just as our toes are necessary. Diana L ps If you have any other thoughts let us know them. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 10066 Registered: 12-2003  |
We're back from the first meeting at Lincoln. There were between 300-350 people there including a fairly significant number of Adventists. There were a couple rows of what appeared to be college students from Union College. The people who had hinted that there would be confrontation were silent; the two people we knew who were making phone calls and asking for a "fair presentation" beforehand were there, but there was no public challenge. I believe there were some questions they submitted on cards, and some were answered, but there was no confrontation. Patria Rector from this forum led two song, "In Christ Alone" and "Word of God, Speaks", and then Chris Lee introduced the evening. Richard and I gave our faith story, and Dale presented the ten major differences between Adventism and evangelical Christianity. He was clear, articulate, and very good. After he was done, a member of the hosting church who is also a former Adventist (with local Adventist parents and family) called for the offering. The Q & A panel ended the evening; it consisted of Chris Lee, Dale, me, the local senior pastor Bryan Clark, and Richard moderated. The evening was, I would say, very well-received. Some of the Adventists who were there spoke to us later and said they disagreed with some of our statements, particularly my comments during the Q & A session on what happens at death. The Q & A was good. Bryan Clark was asked why he, as the head pastor of one of the largest evangelical churches in the area, was hosting an event like this. His answer was essentially that he didn't really know much about Adventism until, several years ago, a wave of Adventists began coming to his church. They began coming to him and asking questions, and he began realizing that he didn't even really understand the questions they were asking. The words they said seemed to mean different things than he understood. He said it took months of meeting together to begin to understand a little bit what they were asking. He further said he realized they were deeply spiritually confused, and he believes it is the responsibility of the body of Christ to deliver people fully equipped in the word of God. He said he wanted his own members to become able to understand and minister to those leaving Adventism. Chris and Dale and I responded to questions about vegetarianism, death, Ellen White, etc. Sabbath questions were deferred to tomorrow when Dale specifically deals with Sabbath. The turnout was surprising; people scurried to set up about a hundred more chairs than originally set out, and about 80% of the chairs were full. We served cookies at the end and encouraged people to stay and talk and check out the book tables in the back. It was a good evening; I'm looking forward to seeing what happens tomorrow. Chris and Carmen have stayed up late with us; Richard is right now reading an article to us that his old colleague from Concerned Communications, Chris Blake, gave him after the meeting. I'm going to sign off so I can listen—and besides, here in Lincoln it's now after midnight. So I'll check in again tomorrow! Thank you all for praying; God was clearly present, and the opposition was kept silent. The Lord Jesus was honored, and He was present. More tomorrow! Colleen | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 7113 Registered: 3-2004 |
God went before you and silenced the opposition and gave all of you the words to say. I say God bless each one of you and a special blessing to the hosting pastor, Bryan Clark. Colleen, thank you for taking the time to let us know what is happening there. It is so good to know that other churches are finding out what SDAs really teach and believe. I will continue to pray for the meetings. Love to all of you and may our awesome God continue to give you the words to say. May He continue to keep the opposition silent. Diana l (Message edited by Flyinglady on June 26, 2009) | ||
| Jrt Registered user Username: Jrt Post Number: 665 Registered: 10-2008 |
Praise God! I was praying throughout the evening for the Lincoln venue. All I can say is Praise God! May hearts be opened and turned toward God and may many others begin to understand how to reach their Adventist friend or family member. Keri | ||
| Esther Registered user Username: Esther Post Number: 504 Registered: 5-2004 |
Colleen, It's great to hear that it went so well! Our pastor here had this to say about the possible fact that SDA's might ask for inclusion on the panel: "well, they've been talking about us for years, and have never asked any evangelicals what we felt about their beliefs, or included us in their presentations."  We continue to pray! Can't wait to see you here! | ||
| Skeeter Registered user Username: Skeeter Post Number: 50 Registered: 12-2007 |
Colleen, What wonderful news !!! Thank you so much for letting us know how the first meeting went. We have all been praying and wondering. Are the sessions being recorded like the FAF weekend meetings ? That would be wonderful if they are :-) I know I have downloaded the FAF weekend meetings and have listened to them over and over again and have put some of them onto cd's for sharing.I hope that will be possible with these meetings as well. May God continue to lead in all the meetings. Francie | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 1035 Registered: 7-2004  |
I just looked up local (Dayton area) SDA church bulletins to see what will be going on during the timeframe of the Miamisburg meetings. Found out that since there will be no Ohio campmeeting this year, everyone is being encouraged to go to Berrien Springs instead July 7 - 11 for a special seminar focusing on the Book of Hebrews. Have no idea if that will have any affect one way or the other on either the Miamisburg or Berrien Springs meetings, but thought that was interesting. Awesome the way God is working in Lincoln! | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 7120 Registered: 3-2004 |
Raven, God will bring to the Miamisburg meetings those who need to be there. Of course we could pray that the seminar on the Book of Hebrews not happen. I am really surprised at the seminar. As an SDA I do not ever remember studying Hebrews. Guess it cannot be avoided any longer. Diana L | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 1036 Registered: 7-2004 |
Yes, I have no doubt God will bring to each of these meetings (all locations) who needs to be there. As far as Hebrews goes, I think sometime in the recent past there was a Sabbath School quarterly done on Hebrews - best I recall, its main focus was on the IJ and how the earthly sanctuary was an exact pattern of the heavenly - how that translates into what has happened all the way through what will happen. Think Messiah's Mansion stuff. This quarterly may have come out after we left the SDA church, so I may not have firsthand knowledge of what was in it. | ||
| Skeeter Registered user Username: Skeeter Post Number: 56 Registered: 12-2007 |
I was hoping there would be another update on the TOE for Saturday's meeting.... I guess they are all very busy. I hope it went well and the Holy Spirit is getting through to scores of people. I am just so anxious to hear all that is happening :-) Francie (Message edited by skeeter on June 28, 2009) | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 1712 Registered: 5-2007  |
Raven, Concerning the Quarterly study on Hebrews: It was Third Quarter 2003 and it was titled: "Sanctuary Themes". Phil | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 10068 Registered: 12-2003 |
Sorry I'm so late with the update! Last night after the meeting, the Life Group of former Adventists Chris Lee leads with his wife Carmen met for a potluck supper at the Lee's home where we stayed the past three nights. It was a relaxed and wonderful evening, and people didn't leave until 11:00. The Lees and we were totally fatigued, but in a good way. After the crowd's departure, the four of us talked for another hour, so I didn't get a chance to post. We're on the road again, so I finally have a chance to write. We attended Berean Bible Church this morning where we heard their pastor Bryan Clark preach a good sermon on Psalm 87 in his "Summer In the Psalms" series. The Saturday morning meeting yesterday was fairly small--probably in the neighborhood of 60-80 or so. It was primarily for pastors, but there were still a lot of formers and also some Adventists there. Chris Lee again welcomed everyone, and Patria Rector gave her faith story which was really moving. Dale gave a step-by-step outline presentation of the Adventist evangelistic meeting's "Sabbath argument", then went back over it and gave brief explanations for the error of the SDA argument. The second half of his presentation was how to minister to transitioning Adventists. He began by explaining the main fears a person has as they contemplate leaving: fear of leaving the church, fear of leaving the Sabbath, fear of leaving EGW. He read EGW quotes as well as Jan Paulsen's words from his 2002 "The Theological Landscape" speech which was printed in the Adventist Review. The morning session was followed again by a Q & A session. Prominent in the Q & A session was a card submitted, written tightly on both sides, by an active SDA who is in a professional position in an SDA institution locally. He wanted to be acknowledged as an evangelical Adventist who believes in salvation by grace through faith in Christ alone, who doesn't read EGW or base any of his beliefs on EGW, who doesn't consider her to be a prophet, etc., and who is sorry we had such a bad experience in the church. But he's glad that, for whatever reason we didn't find the gospel in Adventism, we have finally found it. Chris Lee knew the writer and had previously had a conversation or two with the person, so he answered it. He gave a great answer which I can't totally summarize, but the long and short of it was, "If you don't believe in any of these foundational Adventists beliefs, I challenge you to leave. " Also, (Jeremy, you'll be interested in this) twice—once Friday evening and once after the AM session—I was able to explain the implications of SDA "atonement", with Jesus' blood defiling heaven and the cleansing occurring when the sins were placed back either on the sinners or on Satan. Dale's presentations were awesome, and the Q & A session was good. There were some hostile Adventists present—they didn't make a public stir, but one couple present were related to a former SDA family who had left SDA a few years ago and had come to the weekend meetings. This relative-couple had not been present on Friday evening, but they showed up on Saturday but would not speak to their family members. They sat nearby and muttered sarcastic comments now and then, but they wouldn't greet or speak to their family. It wasn't a publicly obvious "thing", but it was really painful to the family members preset. The conference person who had come on Friday was also there again, and he took notes throughout and left immediately afterward. Richard and I ended up going to lunch (delicious Indian food, BTW), with a long-ago former colleague of Richard's. The colleague is Adventist, but we had a good time catching up on each other's lives. This person did attend all three meetings also. We're pulling into a rest area somewhere in Iowa right now, right behind Dale and Carolyn's fifth wheel. I'll post about the evening in a bit! Colleen | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 1674 Registered: 7-2003  |
As I recall, the last study on Hebrews skipped chapters 3 and 4 since they did not 'relate' to what was being discussed (that's what my ex said). At the time, we thought it an easy way to side step possibly difficult to explain texts . (Message edited by melissa on June 28, 2009) | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 10069 Registered: 12-2003 |
Well, I have to say Iowa is really beautiful. I've certainly spent most of my life west of the Rockies! Nebraska was mostly green and rolling and surprisingly (to us) beautiful, but Iowa has really a lot of trees. Of course, the landscape is not mountainous as it is so many places in the west, but it's more full of rolling hills than is Nebraska. (I know, many of you are reading this and saying, "Yeah, yeah...I know!") But to us it's new territory. The rolling hills are full of trees, mostly deciduous trees that look "oak-y" but not like the live oaks of central CA. It's really beautiful. In front of me right now are wind generators lazily turning on the tops of hills. They actually look very beautiful standing in green cornfields with the young corn shimmering in the wind. Last night the crowd was probably somewhere around 150 (guessing). Dale did his Sabbath presentation where he explains the new covenant; it was extremely powerful. Before he began to speak, Patria again led everyone in singing two songs. Chris Lee had planned to give his faith story, but he said he said he had been convicted before the meeting began that instead of telling how he met Jesus, he needed to explain how the Bible changed him after he met Jesus. Chris actually delivered an amazingly powerful "sermonette" on Ephesians 2 where Paul explains that Jesus broke down the wall of partition between Jew and Gentile by destroying in His flesh the partition which is the law with its ordinances and creating in Himself one new man out of the two. He ended with Ephesians 2:8-9 where Paul declares that we are saved by grace through faith—and neither the grace nor the faith is generated in ourselves but is a gift of God so no one can boast. Then Chris said that some people want to put up that wall of partition again, dividing the body of Christ and even families with the law. He said he felt like Ronald Reagan standing in front of the Berlin wall, and he said, "Tear down that wall!" Oh, my goodness; he was passionate—but in a good way, not with anger—and I was totally wiping the tears from my eyes. The Q & A session was shorter than usual because we had to get out of the room we were in so it could be set up for a service for today, but the questions were much more Sabbath-specific than in previous meetings. They also seemed to be mostly from Adventists, although there were a few from people who were trying to understand from a non-SDA perspective. Altogether, the evening meeting was quite intense. Dale's gospel appeal was deeply powerful. For some reason (probably for several reasons, actually) I was totally exhausted afterward. I felt in a way I can't quite articulate that there was active spiritual warfare going on. I believe also that Richard's and my earlier tour through parts of Union College campus was really impacting to me. I felt really emotional by the time we left—and sad in a deep, almost grieving way. So I went into the evening meeting feeling on the verge of tears, praying for God to glorify Himself and to bring conviction to all those who know the words of the gospel but who are, for whatever reason, reluctant or unwilling to risk life as they know it to follow Jesus alone. One really awesome thing happened. There was a young woman who drove about three hours from a town in Iowa to attend the meetings. She is still Adventist, but she came to meet some friends of hers who drove up from northern Arkansas for the meetings. This young woman has been questioning and has, along with her husband, not been regularly attending church for a while. She has a heart to know what is true. Anyway, she was invited to the potluck supper after the meeting at the Lees. Her friends had to leave to return to Arkansas, but she decided to come anyway. Another former rode with her on the way to the Lees to show her the way, and while they were in the car, the young woman kept saying, "I think I am saved. I really think I was saved as an Adventist. Yes, I think I really am saved." When she got to the house, she was surrounded by many others and involved in conversation while waiting for food. Finally we were ready to eat, and Chris offered the blessing. During his prayer, something he prayed about Life Assurance Ministries just "hit" this young woman, and she ran out the front door crying. To make a long story short, she never really "recovered" the rest of the evening. She was tearful until she finally left about 9:00 or a little later. She said she suddenly realized that there were people who devoted their lives to helping people like her to find freedom in Jesus, and it overwhelmed her. Apparently God chose that moment to completely open her spiritual eyes. She kept saying, "I can't believe this is real!" Just before she left she told several of us, "I feel like I've been converted tonight; I have passed from death to life!" She said for the first time, as Dale spoke on the previous night and that day, she heard clear answers to the questions she had been having. She had previously read Greg Taylor's Discovering the New Covenant and said he had touched on all the questions she had been having, so she was ready to hear more. God met her. When a person volunteers to say they've passed from death to life as they are praising God for what He has done, you know they've met Jesus! Chris said later, "If she is the only one who is changed because of this weekend, the weekend was worth it!" I pray that there will also be others. I pray that those whose cognitive dissonance was increased will continue to be uncomfortable and will not be able to rest until they rest fully in Jesus alone without the props of a deceptive, false church propping up their life and culture. Only when we surrender our identities to Jesus alone do we find rest. It was a good if tiring weekend, and we're praying for God's blessing and protection on the MI and OH meetings. He is faithful! Colleen | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 10070 Registered: 12-2003 |
It was SOO good to meet you, Melissa! Colleen | ||
| Indy4now Registered user Username: Indy4now Post Number: 595 Registered: 2-2008  |
wow... very moving to hear about this woman from Iowa. God is AWESOME!!! | ||
| Seekr777 Registered user Username: Seekr777 Post Number: 774 Registered: 1-2003  |
I'm sitting here in Starbucks with tears in my eyes as I read of the encounter the lady had with her risen Savior on a very personal level. Yes it is a REAL encounter. Richard | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2832 Registered: 10-2004  |
Praise God!!! Jeremy | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 7135 Registered: 3-2004 |
Tears are in my eyes also, as I read of the young woman who met Christ this weekend and decided to follow Him. God is truly AWESOME. Diana L | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 7136 Registered: 3-2004 |
Colleen, Thank you so much for the running updates on what is happening at the meetings. God is using all of you. I will continue to pray for all of you. Diana L |
