| Author |
Message |
Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 7102
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, June 25, 2009 - 6:13 pm: |     |
That is what I learned in SDA schools.
Diana L |
Christo
Registered user
Username: Christo
Post Number: 135
Registered: 2-2008
| | Posted on Thursday, June 25, 2009 - 10:41 pm: | |
The scape goat was selected by drawing lots from two unblemished goats. First of all satan was not unblemished.
Also then according to SDA theology, if the other goat was chosen as the scapegoat by lots, would that have made satan nailed to the cross, and Paul would have taught satan crucified. Ellen G. White is a false prophet period.
(Message edited by Christo on June 25, 2009) |
Clintonc
Registered user
Username: Clintonc
Post Number: 32
Registered: 10-2007
| | Posted on Friday, June 26, 2009 - 6:22 am: | |
This was really new to me too! Before I left the church, I remember hearing how Jesus was the scapegoat and not satan. I thought, "What? That's wrong!".
Mark Martin explained so well in a sermon the concept of atonement. He said that in the old covenant, sins were just covered, like a cloth, year after year. Only until Christ came, the sins were not covered, but taken away with His death! This was really new to me.
This makes so much sense that Christ is the scapegoat that takes away the sins. Behold the Lamb of God which takes away the sins of the word. Truly amazing. |
Dennis
Registered user
Username: Dennis
Post Number: 1711
Registered: 4-2000
| | Posted on Friday, June 26, 2009 - 12:19 pm: | |
Clintonc,
The primary references for Satan's role in man's atonement (blotting out of sins) is found in Great Controversy, pages 422 and 485. In Adventism, sins are only conditionally forgiven. Thus, without Satan's role of "blotting out" confessed sins, there is no eternal bliss for any person.
In the truest sense, Adventism teaches that God rewards Satan for his busy deviltry--the more people he can keep from becoming Christians the less suffering he will have to endure for confessed sins that were only conditionally-forgiven. Paradoxically and sadly, official Adventism claims to have TWO sin-bearers; namely, Christ and Satan. Does heresy ever get any worse than this?
Dennis Fischer |
Jim02
Registered user
Username: Jim02
Post Number: 863
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Monday, June 29, 2009 - 12:33 pm: | |
What is Satan's dispostion in actuality?
Going in,
In progress,
Destiny,
Premise?
I know there is a judgement and a lake of fire.
Do you think Satan will cease to exist someday?
Or will he live on in Hell for eternity.
Will he have a classic mythical role to play?
Or will He be in the same predicament as humans in hell.
(I already know the anhilation theory is challenged)
Also, do you think Satan has a motive?
Is his soul dead?
Did he have a soul.
How did his orginal sin come into being?
When he was sinless, by what power was he sinless?
What ensures that sin will not reoccur among the Angels who did not fall?
Can Angels be forgiven?
Could Satan or an Angel repent or is it too late?
Jim |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 10085
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Monday, June 29, 2009 - 2:39 pm: | |
Jim, most of those questions are not answered in the Bible. As Aslan said to the children in The Silver Chair in the Chronicles of Narnia when one of them asked what would happen to another one of them, "I only tell you your own story."
Jesus said the same thing to Peter when he told him he would suffer for Him. Peter asked about John—what would happen to him? Jesus replied, if I choose to keep him alive until I return (I'm paraphrasing!), what is that to you?
God doesn't reveal the details of Satan to us, and He doesn't expect us to know them. We do know that Hebrews 2 says Jesus did not come to help angels but man, and He came in human likeness for that purpose. We also know that Revelation 20 states that Satan is thrown into the lake of fire which is the second death.
I have come to see the wisdom in and have great respect for Elizabeth Inrig's stance on these "what" and "why" questions which are not directly addressed in Scripture. She tells people who keep asking "why" questions simply to stop asking. They lead one into speculation, and the details we do not know are not needed for our understanding all we need to to know for life and godliness (2 Peter 2:1-3).
If we try to analyze the unknowables, we end up creating philosophical conclusions that skew revealed truth. We have to take what we KNOW from Scripture and apply that to our questions. We have to literally believe what the Bible says and apply those literal meanings to life's situations. That application begins to create a framework of reality that increasingly ties everything together into a congruent whole.
Colleen |
Jim02
Registered user
Username: Jim02
Post Number: 864
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Monday, June 29, 2009 - 7:22 pm: | |
I get your point Colleen.
I ask many questions and sometimes there is an answer for one of them. It's like casting a large net. Hopefully you learn something and you add that to your understanding.
Jim |
Skeeter
Registered user
Username: Skeeter
Post Number: 63
Registered: 12-2007
| | Posted on Monday, June 29, 2009 - 7:34 pm: | |
I know there are many things that we just plain cannot and wil not know the answers to until we are in Heaven, but, it is hard for me to believe that Satan OR humans either will be burning in Hell for all Eternity... that would not be a "second death" but everlasting life.. Life in a living never ending Hell to be sure, but still everlasting life. It is just my feeling that the term "everlasting torment" means everlasting,,, as long as there is anything left to burn . somewhere else (forget where) the Bible I believe says they will be burned "like chaff" Chaff burns quickly and completely so there is nothing left. How ever it will be is God's decision and he will do as he wills.. But he is a God of mercy as well as a God of justice. I don't see how God could be truly happy himslef with a bunch of people in Heaven through a literal eternity and knowing (and those in Heaven knowing) there was a place removed from Heaven where people would be burning in eternal torment. Personally...I just cant see that.
Francie |
Jim02
Registered user
Username: Jim02
Post Number: 867
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 30, 2009 - 6:39 am: | |
Francie,
I agree, I do not believe in eternally burning hell, or imortal infinite punishments.
Jim 02 |
Philharris
Registered user
Username: Philharris
Post Number: 1716
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 01, 2009 - 4:35 am: | |
Jim,
What is the Biblical support for this belief of yours?
Phil |
Doc
Registered user
Username: Doc
Post Number: 415
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, July 02, 2009 - 7:33 am: | |
Just read this thread, and really enjoyed it. As an outsider approaching Adventism and not really sure what to think about it, it was the scapegoat teaching that gave me the most concern that something is seriously wrong. When I explained the sanctuary doctrine to my Christology class at the Pentecostal Bible School, they were really shocked by it, but very interested to hear that Adventism is not just about the Sabbath and not eating pork.
And yes, I do think this version of the atonement is blasphemous, and other churches need to hear about it.
All the best with the tour!
Adrian |
Seekinglight
Registered user
Username: Seekinglight
Post Number: 260
Registered: 3-2009
| | Posted on Thursday, July 02, 2009 - 8:11 am: | |
Yeah, I'm just catching up on this thread now. Jeremy thank you for all the scapegoat quotes. They make me ill, but it's important to know they exist.
The scapegoat teaching alone is enough for me to leave the SDA church. I have liberal SDAs say to me that it's not a big deal b/c the scapegoat thing is not really being taught openly anymore. Conservative SDAs tell me that by making Jesus the scapegoat, we make Him responsible for sin--thus, making me the one who's committing the REAL blasphemy.
The SDA scapegoat teaching is deeply offensive to me. I'm sure that Jesus' heart must be breaking over this.  |
