| Author | Message | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 2051 Registered: 8-2004  |
Predestination is a bit of a sticky subject, and not one I pretend to comprehend, but as I was reading Ephesians this morning, some neat things jumped out at me. I'd love some feedback! Ephesians begins with "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places" "Blessed be." It is interesting to me that the greeting used by Wiccans (yes, I've known a few) is just this, but they leave off the rest of the greeting. It's not just "Blessed be," but "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ." And more to my topic, it is obvious that Paul saw the context of predestination as blessing - God Himself is blessed and has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places. Has blessed us! We are also blessed. It has happened. We don't have to wait for it. Now how has He blessed us? Paul tells us: "even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him." He chose us in Jesus Christ "before the foundation of the world" and for what? That we should be holy and blameless before him." How? by good works and by making ourselves perfect? NO. In love, through Jesus Christ, according to His will, that the riches of His grace would be praised, as it is written "In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved." And has He blessed us further? Yes! "In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth." Wow! In him we have not just adoption, but redemption through His blood and the forgiveness of our trespasses. Again, because we've cleaned up our act and are now doing things right? No! Paul is clear it is "according to the riches of His grace, lavished on us." Is this foolishness? No! He chooses to do this "in all wisdom and insight." Why? Because in His love and according to His grace, He has chosen to unite all things in heaven and on earth in Christ! Is our inheritance on solid footing, or is it something that may be jerked away? Paul tells us that it is in this very Christ, in whom all things are being united, that "we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will." Now that's something to get excited about! Predestination may be a hard word to understand, but it is wrapped up in God's Love and the riches of God's grace, God's purposes, and God's Son. It is a mystery, but needs hold no fear for us since Love, Grace, and Jesus are its very context! But just in case we still worry Paul has even more reassurance. All who believe in Jesus are included: Those "who were the first to hope in Christ . . .to the praise of his glory" and all the rest of us who heard and believed later, "when [we] heard the word of truth, the gospel of [our] salvation, and believed in him, [we] were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, because we managed to become righteous in ourselves? No! Again, rather, "to the praise of his glory." May You be glorified in us, Lord. For I know that when You work according to Your will it is also for our best good! You do not work in half measures. You can be trusted to complete the work You've begun, and to provide for us "exceedingly abundantly above all we could ask or think." Thank you so much! | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 5000 Registered: 9-2006  |
Great post Mary.  If you keep that up, I might get so exited I'll have to jump up and run around the office a time er two! River | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 10004 Registered: 12-2003  |
Mary, awesome post! The impact of predestination is that it is not primarily about US—predestination isn't about God simply seeing us down time's corridors and choosing us. Primarily, predestination is about what happens IN CHRIST. Believers are part of this miracle of being united with God in Christ. He knows believers in advance because of Jesus and His relationship with all things and His choice of us in Jesus. As you said, Mary, it's a mystery, but the idea that we are participating by God's design in Christ and His power and forgiveness is unspeakable. God chose to unite all things in heaven and on earth with Christ! And one more observation: this particular predestination that Paul writes about is the unique grace given to the church. Believers from all times are saved through faith, but the OT saints were not "in Christ". Of course, God obviously foreknew the OT saints also, but the particular passage you referred to, Mary, in Ephesians is for and about the church. Amazing. Wow. Colleen | ||
| 8thday Registered user Username: 8thday Post Number: 989 Registered: 11-2007  |
Colleen, is it possible that the OT saints are NOW in Christ, since the cross? I have wondered about that.. It's a brain bender. =) Sondra | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 2058 Registered: 8-2004 |
I'm not Colleen, but I think you're right! There is no other name under Heaven by which we must be saved. And, as Ephesians says, it was God's plan "for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him [that is, Christ], things in heaven and things on earth." | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 7019 Registered: 3-2004  |
In Hebrews 11 it talks of the OT saints who had Faith. I believe that because of this they are saved. Diana L | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 10012 Registered: 12-2003 |
I'm sure that's true, Sondra! The difference I see is that before they died, they were not indwelt by the Holy Spirit—but they WERE saved by grace through faith. So yes...all the saved are saved in Christ--but the church is different from Israel in that God has revealed Himself in a more intimate way because they live after the cross. The new, living way opened by Jesus' blood makes it possible for the saved to be directly connected to God by the Holy Spirit. Israel experienced the Holy Spirit, but not the permanent indwelling. Yet they are saved because of Christ, and as Mary said, at the fullness of time, God united all things in Him. Colleen | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1703 Registered: 4-2000  |
The Apostle Paul's conclusion about divine election is as follows:
Truly, "salvation belongs to the Lord" (Jonah 2:9 ESV). It's all about Him! Soli Deo Gloria! In awe of His saving grace, Dennis Fischer | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 5071 Registered: 9-2006 |
The problem with cherry picking scripture which points to predestination at times brings failure to listen to the whole counsel of God. The Arminians cherry pick the one side of the tree, while the Calvinist cherry pick the other side of the tree. It leaves me frustrated with the both of them. The one side of the conclusion is that God chose a few and the other side of the conclusion is that we save ourselves. Insanity reins when we refuse to take the whole council of God. I sometimes think, Lord get me out of here, you have left me in a nut house! I really do, I get so as to where I lay at Gods feet whimpering like a beat puppy, then he smooths and sooth's my soul and comforts me just as he promised he would. I know my time 9is short and I'll be gone and good riddance to an insane world. River | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 2083 Registered: 8-2004 |
Thanks River. In what I posted I intentionally did not delve into just what predestination is or how it works, just that it is surrounded by God's love and grace. | ||
| Animal Registered user Username: Animal Post Number: 535 Registered: 7-2008  |
Some try to put God in a box and hold it up and say, "here is God everybody!!!" Such people I avoid. You cant put God in a box. You cant even define who God is with any degree of justice to His holiness. Makes you wonder why so many denominations and only ONE God. If you want to know who God really is...read the bible without all your preconceived ideas and let HIM show you who HE is..Really is that simple. Dont let others do your thinking for you. Put those other books down and let scripture guide you into the truth of God. Animal...stick to scripture..throw all them other books away | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1708 Registered: 4-2000 |
Animal, Books are like friends, we can't have too many good ones. Most of what we learn in life we learn from others. Christianity has blessed the world with the concept of universities and hospitals. One of my favorite books is entitled, "Under the Influence: How Christianity Transformed Civilization" by Dr. Alvin J. Schmidt, retired professor of sociology at the University of Nebraska-Lincoln. This 423-page book is a must-read type. We can learn alot from the giants of the Christian faith. After all, the Bible tells us that "in the multitude of counsellors there is safety" (Proverbs 24:6). Truly, God blesses us with outstanding friends, books, pastors, and teachers. Indeed, it would be a most serious tragedy to be bereft of such richness in our lives. Someone aptly stated that "a home without books is like a house without windows." Happy reading! Dennis Fischer | ||
| Jackob Registered user Username: Jackob Post Number: 523 Registered: 7-2005 |
River said:
Unfortunately this is the result of the way in which debates around the subject happens. Both parts quote those texts that they think the others are neglecting. Calvinists tend to quote texts that affirm that God truly elects and Arminians texts that affirm that people truly chose Christ. The impression given is that either side has their preferred texts that trump the other. No wonder you're frustrated. I think that this impression does not make justice to any party involved. Calvinists believe that man truly believe, truly chose Christ, truly make decisions that have salvific consequences. Arminians also believe that God truly elects people for salvation, that God decides their eternal destinies. It's not an either this or that issue. It's rather the way in which God's decision and man's decision relates with one another. Another situation that greatly frustrates the interaction between adventists and formers. I'm still hearing accusations that I preach a doctrine of justification that promotes license to sin, that I'm against works from fear of legalism. As you already know, this is no true. We do works, it's naturally for a new born person to do good works, to love God and his neighbor, the issue is how these works relate with justification and salvation. Is justification based on our works, on sanctification, or is the other way around? Recently I wrote on another forum to an adventist:
How works and faith relate, how sanctification and justification go together is an issue of first importance in relation with salvation. I will not put election on the same level, though, even if I think it is highly important to have a biblical view about it. Gabriel | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2823 Registered: 10-2004  |
Gabriel, thanks for your post--very insightful points. Jeremy | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 10035 Registered: 12-2003 |
Yes, Gabriel. I agree. Colleen | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 5080 Registered: 9-2006 |
Oh I get frustrated alright Gabrial, one Wensday evening Bible study we were making our way through Psalms and we came to Psalms 51:11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me. And my Pastor said "Oh, I pray that prayer." or something to that effect and you have probably had a hint that I can be rather straight forward at times (hidden word for blunt) so I jumps up and says "Now wait just a minute here, the Holy Spirit had not been given at that time, remember his promise never to leave us or forsake us, the earnest of his spirit?" Well, the Pastor knew that he had stepped in it, and he conceded that. He seemed to have forgotten that at the moment. Now this man is not some goul teaching heresy, he is a Godly man and I felt a little bad about jumping in, but something in me jumped out before I knew it. Its like they forget the whole council of God at times. This is what it is like dealing with it. Ya danged tootin' I get frustrated! I don't feel like I belong to the Arminian persuasion and I don't feel like I belong to the Calvinist persuasion and I sure don't belong to the Catlic persuasion. I guess that's why it upsets me if I think the former has fallen out of the Adventist church and fallen right into their doctrine. I'm kinda like the TV commercial "Git you own box!" I guess the south just breeds us rebels like rabbits. River | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1709 Registered: 4-2000 |
River, What are your disagreements with the Arminian view? Dennis Fischer |
