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Jrt
Registered user
Username: Jrt
Post Number: 629
Registered: 10-2008
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 16, 2009 - 9:08 am: |     |
Sparrow,
I'll share a little more of my thinking lately.
I have pondered over and over whether I was "saved" as an Adventist. I know I spoke the words, "I believe in faith alone, through Jesus Christ alone, by grace alone." I really did believe Jesus was the Son of God. Ofcourse, now my understanding has changed greatly in that area thanks to Jeremy and Colleen's explanations about the trinity.
I can only say that something very, very, very deep inside me has changed since last summer. For me, I had "believed", but under that veneer was a layer of doubt. I still was relying a little bit on behavior - my behavior. I did not see myself "as THAT bad" as scripture points out that I was without Christ (Rom. 3). That I was dead. Last July I finally realized my ONLY hope, was Jesus. Salvation had nothing to do with me or my behavior. I began to trust at a deep level in Jesus' sacrifice alone. My heart has changed. I'm a different person - totally.
I now believe that I was not saved while an Adventist. Something TOO dramatic has changed in me that was not there before. It is part mystery - like what Jesus described to Nicodemus, John 3, (the wind - can't see it, but understand the results).
This is extremely humbling to me to admit. But I know it is TRUE. I even had led people through the steps of salvation by Billy Graham, before this time (but I myself was not saved). I have a haunch that many Adventists though they sound "right" there is a layer of doubt in the efficiency of Jesus' sacrifice. And therefore, they are not saved. They are not relying fully on His saving work - there is an aspect of themselves in salvation that they won't admit openly. The full weight of their faith is not on Jesus. Rather they (I, myself) had one foot on Jesus and one foot on a foundation of self. Salvation cannot be that - scripture is clear. Salvation is SOLELY Jesus and Him alone. And it stays that way (sanctification) - I don't lose my salvation because of my behavior or something I do. This is SO freeing! I want to serve Him in a way I never felt before. I DO NOT want to sin and cause Him dishonor. But I know that if I do - I am not lost.
Just my thoughts, ...
Blessings Sparrow as you seek Him and grow in grace. It is a difficult journey - very painful, but VERY rewarding.
With love,
Keri |
Jim02
Registered user
Username: Jim02
Post Number: 844
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 16, 2009 - 9:17 am: | |
It is not a question of arrogance at all. |
Helovesme2
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Username: Helovesme2
Post Number: 2053
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 16, 2009 - 9:30 am: | |
This may not apply to you Jim, but in my own experience, even self-pity can be a form of arrogance - the arrogance that God doesn't really mean what He says when He promises to save to the uttermost all who come to Him. The attitude that God may save even the chief of sinners, but I'm worse than that, or the idea that God may say He loves everybody, but I don't count. |
Hec
Registered user
Username: Hec
Post Number: 298
Registered: 3-2009
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 16, 2009 - 12:30 pm: | |
Some people here are talking about assurance of salvation, so I think I'm not far from the topic with my next question. If I am, just open another thread to answer.
I've been understanding that once I'm save, nothing can take me away from Jesus. I'm secure for ever. I have eternal life.
The SDAs like to say, yes, but... and one of the buts is that you have to keep the law and obey the commandments to stay save. If you don't, then you are not saved because your faith is not "saving face." "Faith without works is dead." My problem is how do I know that my lack of works or my fleshly deeds are the results of "dead faith" or the result of "sin which lives in me" according to Paul. Wouldn't that kind of thinking place me in the same position of SDAs that cannot say "I am saved" because they don't know when they have sin enough or have been clean enough?
I've been reading Dale's book, Sabbath in Christ in pages 308-309, commenting on Gal 5:16-23, he says:
quote:We most also note Paul's clear warning against those who make it a practice to give in to the deeds of the flesh. He did not say that they will go to heaven but just not get the same rewards as those who do not do such deeds of the flesh. Rather, he said, "as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God." In other words, those who make it a practice to follow the deeds of the flesh are not genuine Christians. They are not controlled by the Holy Spirit. They have another Lord and master. Within the New covenant there is no assurance of living in sin and having the assurance of salvation. True, we all fall short, but our loyalty to God is seen as we keep in step with the Holy Spirit residing in our lives and not following the flesh. Emphasis mine.
That sounds to me like the SDA argument. "If you are a Christian but you are sinning, you are not a genuine Christian, and you are not saved." The problem with that is that we all sin. When have we sin enough to be considered practicing the deeds of the flesh, rather than just falling short? One or two of those deeds? The same deed repeated twice a day, will be OK? What if we do it three times? Four? When will I know that I am still saved or that I have come to the point of not inheriting the kingsom of God? Wouldn't that place me back in the same place the SDAs had me, not knowing that I'm saved because there are things that if I do them often enough, then I am not saved? Will I need the IJ to determine if I reach the goal? And what is the goal?
Have a rambled enough? Even so, It has to do with my assurance of salvation which is one of the worse issues in SDA when it comes to peace of mind. I want that peace of mind.
As you notice, I'm not giving answers, I'm asking questions because it is important to me. And this coming from Dale, a person whom I trust in these matters, confuses me very much.
Thank you for your help.
Hec |
Jrt
Registered user
Username: Jrt
Post Number: 631
Registered: 10-2008
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 16, 2009 - 12:40 pm: | |
Jim,
Forgive me if I offended you by using the word arrogance. I know it was a layer in my own life.
I know the word applied to me and at times can still apply to me. It is the whole Remnant theology paradigm. I have the truth and any one that disagrees with me doesn't. I reveled in spiritual pride as an SDA (though I was not fully consciously aware of that at the time). I have asked the Lord to root that out of my life. There are many things that the Lord is revealing to me and I am thankful for His pruning ways. Not always easy, but ALWAYS beneficial.
Mary, I know that I too, have had the arrogance of self-pity. Thank you for posting that. It was a light bulb moment. I had never thought of it in the terms you posted.
Last year, at this time I wallowed quite well in my own self-pity. No one had experienced the trauma and pain that I had been through and God really didn't seem to care.
Thankfully, God is faithful to His promises ... He rescued me from myself.
Jim, in closing, I am praying for you. God seems to bring you to mind quite often. He is SO worthy of placing your trust in and His Word is sound. Choose to give up your doubt; for Him. It is worth it.
Keri |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 10006
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 16, 2009 - 6:03 pm: | |
Hec, good questions. The difference now, though, is the NEW BIRTH. When we are born again and the Holy Spirit literally brings us to life and transfers us from Adam to Christ, sin no longer is mater over us (read Romans 6). This fact is based not on "sins" but on SIN.
Our by-nature-object-of-wrath spiritually dead spirits are now alive. We have God's own life in us. Now we can actually choose to surrender our temptations to God. Paul says in Romans 6 that we are no longer o present the members of our bodies to sin as instruments of unrighteousness, but we are to present ourselves to god as those alive from the dead, and our members as instruments of righteousness to God.
Once we have been born again, our offering ourselves to God has nothing to do with trying to keep the law. It has everything to do with honoring Jesus. Moreover, we are working from victory instead of toward victory.
Colleen |
Grace_alone
Registered user
Username: Grace_alone
Post Number: 1466
Registered: 6-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 16, 2009 - 6:42 pm: | |
I have a question for you formers. When you were active SDA's, how often (on average) would you say that you could lose your salvation each day? Was it anything you ever thought about? Was it something that was always on your mind? Could you lose your salvation with every little sin?
Just looking for some perspective on the subject...
 Leigh Anne |
Jrt
Registered user
Username: Jrt
Post Number: 632
Registered: 10-2008
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 16, 2009 - 6:56 pm: | |
Half a million times a day! And I'm not kidding 
I felt like I was always praying in my head for forgiveness - my anger towards my brothers, my not trusting God enough, my wishing I had things other girls had, my ...
Course it may be personality too. I have a pretty sensitive conscious.
Keri |
Philharris
Registered user
Username: Philharris
Post Number: 1671
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 16, 2009 - 7:13 pm: | |
Leigh Anne,
I'm with Keri. Fear of hell and having the convection that I was headed there overshadowed all else.
Phil |
Jim02
Registered user
Username: Jim02
Post Number: 846
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 16, 2009 - 7:31 pm: | |
I don't think I can do this thread justice and answer lucidly every point that was made.
Nor do I want to ramble on or sound wishy washy.
I had already commented that perhaps I need to be on point, specific and work through one step , one thing at a time. (separate strings)
But quite naturally, questions replys are part of it and before I know it it becomes nebulous.
This has been a pattern for me (Leigh Anne), the questions go off into too many tangents and what I am genuinely dealing with never seems to get answered or the answers are so buried in the details I can't put them together long enough to learn them to memory in a chain of thought.
This crys out for an organized topical study.
Decently and in order.
Jrt,
Hec could not have said it better.
I literally typed almost the same line of dialouge today on this string and deleted it because I did not want to come across off base.
But yes, there is no more measurable assurance in the new approach than in the SDA version.
To me , they are nearly the same in effect.
Leigh Anne,
To answer your question,
I actually felt more secure more often in the SDA system than I do now. Because, I was taught essentially the same things I read on this forum about the assurance of salvation through the merits of Christ, "Christ Our Righteousness".
The main difference was I saw less discrepancy overall with the admonitions. It could be summed up in this, God is not mocked. What you sow , you reap, To him that overcomes...., and so on.
It was a balance on a wide surface of safety in Christ that we were safe in our growth process while we grew, but that God had no pleasure in those who draw back, (backslide-neglect- willfully continue in sin , not desiring or asking to be set free) I understood this , it made sense.
It was like a marriage. If you love your spouse, you may have flaws, but it is eveident where your heart is and continued invested efforts are, to love more deeply and to lavish your attentions on your spouse. It made sense.
Now there were reasons I wanted out of the SDA.
Boredom, legalism, checklist existance, feeling like a lawyer, inhibited , lack of spontanaiety sp and so on. I felt that something was blocking my spiritual growth. But I also realize, no matter what I carry my hang ups with me.
I do not blame everything on the SDA system.
I saw some things being ignored or glossed over in scripture and that did not settle well.
But I see the same things happening now.
That is why, it is important to me to start with the basics and try to get past this menagerie.
My personal life ,divorce, isolation, depression and all that junk isn't making it any easier. But I keep hoping and my trust is resting in God alone.
I have no price in my hand, I cannot "earn" anything towards salvation or peace with God and personal strength somedays is literally on empty. Lamenting is pointless and I do not want pity. I am not making excuses. I just need a path I can follow and a path that feeds my needs along the journey.
I get angry, frustrated and sometimes I feel sorry for myself.
Believe me , I fuss at myself!
I am striving to be a person God can use in His service. But I need fuel and I need to understand the instructions.
Colleen ,
You are on the right track. I believe you are saying something very important.
Now if I can just actualize it so I can make it my own.
"Moreover, we are working from victory instead of toward victory. "
I don't identify too well with mantras, or validation by repetitive consent.
If I see a teaching, a truth,if I understand it, it becomes real for me.
I pray prayers of submission often. But prayers that say words like a script have no depth for me.
If it is true that God's Holy Spirit knows the things we cannot express, then I believe my inner thoughts are somehow getting heard.
Jim |
Joyfulheart
Registered user
Username: Joyfulheart
Post Number: 620
Registered: 10-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 16, 2009 - 8:18 pm: | |
Hi Leigh Anne,
I think Keri and Phil are right. Most SDA's worry about losing their salvation many times a day. Its almost like there is a line down the middle of our heart. On one side we've confessed every sin and are overcoming, living lives of perfect communion and holiness with Christ. On the other side is a fear that we have an unconfessed sin or having brought someone to the point of baptism (have no fruit), or we know our hearts aren't completely with they ought to be or we haven't kept the Sabbath perfectly holy or we're breaking another rule...
At least in my case, I hopped over the line - in and out of salvation many times a day. Please understand, too that I was a Christian from a great church prior to the SDA chapter in my life.
The SDA church messed me up spiritually. I'm still undoing the damage. Actually, it's the Holy Spirit straightening me out with the truth of the Word of God. |
Christo
Registered user
Username: Christo
Post Number: 134
Registered: 2-2008
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 17, 2009 - 12:11 am: | |
Jim,
I sure am glad you are on this forum, it gives myself and others a chance to process different forms of tribulation that we have all been through, and to remember the strength it gave our faith, because their was no where else to go but surrender to God.
You know that God , our heavenly Father is a much better parent than any earthly father could hope to be.I would like to say that God teaches those who he loves, and one thing he tries to teach us is that nothing except relying on him for everything is going to give us peace.
I can remember in some of my afflictions I couldn't remember what it felt like anymore to feel good, and then all of a sudden I could catch my breath, and feel neutral, or even happy. Neutral was good, happy was better.
Kind of like Pavlovs dog, I found that when I surrendered my objectives to God, I could feel peace. So more and more I surrender my objectives to God. It helps.
One of my pet objectives was to justify myself in the feelings I had of dispare because they were causal in creation. The remedy was never going to be causal, because things never "always go my way", and other people(who have just a wide variety of foibles as myself), have been the greatest source of both joy and suffering. Its never the weather,or the trees, or the critters, but people who are so challenging. We even challenge ourselves.
Keep going to that point of surrender, where you trust God with your life, life eternal, this point of your eternal life that you are experiencing now. He will throw you a bone, and get you to the next moment in eternity. Realize that your moments in eternity are going to get better, and better the more you surrender to him, despite your circumstances. One day every moment in eternity will be perfect. Our present afflictions are nothing compared to what some people go through, but more importantly our afflictions are nothing compared to the glory we find, and shall find in Christ Jesus
Do I make light of afflictions?, by no means, but I try and trust God to use each and every circumstance for his glory. Do I always remember this when I am going through it?,, NO,,,, but I try and train myself to realize this truth of Gods hands in our lives as much as possible so I can remind myself during tribulations when I am most vunerable to say " I give myself to you, you are in charge".
I hope this helps, it helps me to write it, thereby reminding myself, I realize this moment is for Gods glory.
Oh Jesus,
Chris |
Jim02
Registered user
Username: Jim02
Post Number: 847
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 17, 2009 - 3:38 am: | |
Chris,
We are on the same page.
Thank You,
Jim |
Grace_alone
Registered user
Username: Grace_alone
Post Number: 1467
Registered: 6-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 17, 2009 - 9:50 am: | |
Thanks for your answers friends! I posted my question on CARM to the active SDA's. Curious to know what kind of answers I'm going to get. Hopefully it's thought provoking, and starts some good dialogue.
Leigh Anne |
Indy4now
Registered user
Username: Indy4now
Post Number: 553
Registered: 2-2008
| | Posted on Thursday, June 18, 2009 - 4:42 am: | |
Hey LeighAnne~
I actually didn't think about "losing" my salvation much... I just didn't really know if I had it in the first place. I look back now and see how parched and dry my life was. I knew that by accepting Christ's gift I was saved, but like Keri, I still thought that being a good person counted... Now I know that I wasn't saved when I was Adventist either.
~vivian |
Grace_alone
Registered user
Username: Grace_alone
Post Number: 1468
Registered: 6-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, June 18, 2009 - 2:00 pm: | |
Thanks Viv ~
I did post it, and got two replies from active SDA's. One said that the church doesn't teach that but replied that "trusting in Christ for salvation and striving to enter the gate then God will save us." So according to him, if you try hard enough, God will save.
The other (I think he says he's an SDA pastor), seems to be challenging me to a duel. |
Jrt
Registered user
Username: Jrt
Post Number: 638
Registered: 10-2008
| | Posted on Thursday, June 18, 2009 - 2:31 pm: | |
Leigh Anne,
Ah, a duel ... you, go girl! Remember you have the sword of the Spirit in your hands. And the best armor anyone could think of ... helmet of salvation, breastplate of righteousness ...
Blessings and prayers,
Keri |
Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 7028
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, June 18, 2009 - 4:52 pm: | |
Grace_alone,
Rasell is an SDA pastor. I am not sure about Icyspark.
Diana L |
Grace_alone
Registered user
Username: Grace_alone
Post Number: 1469
Registered: 6-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, June 18, 2009 - 5:16 pm: | |
Diana,
Ah-ha! Thanks. I can only stand CARM for short periods at a time (which is why I'm not there on a regular basis) so I don't know who everyone is.
me |
Raven
Registered user
Username: Raven
Post Number: 1027
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, June 18, 2009 - 8:14 pm: | |
Leigh Anne, there's not exactly a straightforward answer to your question. Not only has my own thinking gradually changed over the years, the church itself has morphed its teachings. I recall being taught from very young that we had to confess every single sin, including asking the person wronged to forgive us, or we wouldn't be saved. In my young mind, I had the idea that I'd better hurry up and do that each time - I wasn't sure how much time I was allowed to take care of that. I also remember getting "smart" around first or second grade and changing my confession both to God and others to forgive me "for anything I might have done wrong"--I figured that would cover it all and I'd be safe!
In high school (SDA academy) I heard for the first time the more liberal SDA viewpoint. I learned that we didn't necessarily have to confess every single sin or reach perfection. Instead, God looks at the trend of our life. So then it became about making sure I wanted to do the right thing, try, and show some progress.
By the time I started understanding something about grace as an adult (about 10 years before leaving the SDA church) I decided by that time that even if the IJ were correct, I could completely trust God to make me perfect by sometime before I died if necessary, and help me recall everything I needed to confess. But the catch is, even then, I thought that God would only do His part if I did my part. I thought my part was telling Him each day that I chose Him - like reconfirming my commitment and choice every day. It's not like I thought He would forget, just that I was required to decide daily.
Long story short, I guess in my earlier years I thought I could be lost several times a day if I intentionally put off asking forgiveness for sins. Then later I thought my saved state lasted an entire day, and then I had to get saved again. Obviously these details aren't spelled out in SDA doctrine, but certainly SDA doctrine doesn't teach assurance by any stretch. |
Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 7032
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, June 18, 2009 - 8:35 pm: | |
Raven, that is interesting. I only learned that all sins had to be confessed and I had on again/off again salvation. It was not until I left adventism until I heard about these changes. I am just so glad that Jesus did it all and I do not have a work to do for my salvation.
Diana L |
Jrt
Registered user
Username: Jrt
Post Number: 641
Registered: 10-2008
| | Posted on Friday, June 19, 2009 - 12:44 am: | |
Raven,
I SO resonated with your post.
I remember my own understanding morphing as you describe above. As a child I was confessing hundreds of times a day ... and then it morphed into once a day ... etc.
Keri |
Jim02
Registered user
Username: Jim02
Post Number: 848
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Friday, June 19, 2009 - 6:52 am: | |
Regarding the question of salvation in or out of SDA.
Personally , for myself, I did not, do not believe I was any less saved then or now.
Then and now, I relied upon the merits of Christ.
Then and now, I understand the sanctifacation process and the safety net we are assured of.
Then and now, I realize that grace is not a license to sin.
Then and now, I believe it is clearly possible to fall out of grace, to fall away and be lost through Spiritual neglect, rebellion, or willfull refusal to repent of a known sin.
I fathom this is a big issue for many.
However , I don't see where any sincere honest SDA is on any other foundational basis than any other Christian relying upon the Grace of God.
Romans 14:4
Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
Jim02 |
Grace_alone
Registered user
Username: Grace_alone
Post Number: 1470
Registered: 6-2006
| | Posted on Friday, June 19, 2009 - 8:18 am: | |
Thanks Jim ~ When you wrote that you "don't see where any honest SDA is on any other foundational basis than any other Christian..." you need to remember that the foundation upon which the SDA church (as a system) stands is a false gospel. That's the biggest barrier, and is what causes so much fear regarding salvation.
Raven, I don't know if you're following the thread in CARM, but the other person challenging me picked out one little verse in 2nd Corinthians (completely out of context) and argues that "According to Paul, Christians should examine their faith. They should be testing themselves to see if their faith is real. Apparently Paul feels it’s possible to fail this test."
(In context, the Corinthian church was demanding that Paul prove that Christ was speaking through him. In his 2nd letter (chapter 13) he writes "I already gave you a warning when I was with you the second time. I now repeat it while absent: On my return I will not spare those who sinned earlier or any of the others, 3 since you are demanding proof that Christ is speaking through me. He is not weak in dealing with you, but is powerful among you. 4 For to be sure, he was crucified in weakness, yet he lives by God's power. Likewise, we are weak in him, yet by God's power we will live with him to serve you.
5 Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you—unless, of course, you fail the test? 6 And I trust that you will discover that we have not failed the test.")
So this fellow took that one little verse (which to me looks like Paul was asking a rhetorical question) and applied it to all of Christianity as an example that they must test themselves regularly to make sure their faith is real.
What test? Where can we find this test and how do we know if we've passed or not? Who corrects the test for us?
Are the SDA's telling me (in a round about way) that you must be on constant alert to make sure you don't lose your salvation? Is that an acurate assessment?
Leigh Anne |
Jim02
Registered user
Username: Jim02
Post Number: 849
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Friday, June 19, 2009 - 11:39 am: | |
Leigh Anne,
I have not asked this question before (that I recall).
Several folks have said what you just said that the SDA have a different Gospel or foundation.
What exactly are you referring to?
(Not too broad and not too condensed.)
Jim02 |
Grace_alone
Registered user
Username: Grace_alone
Post Number: 1471
Registered: 6-2006
| | Posted on Friday, June 19, 2009 - 2:17 pm: | |
Jim, in a nutshell, the gospel that the disciples preached was that if you believe that Jesus died on the cross and rose from the dead, you HAVE salvation and everlasting life. (1 Corinthians 15). Everything revolves around Jesus.
The goal for most mainstream churches is to preach that same gospel. Their objective is to tell non-believers about Christ and invite them to accept him as their savior. They normally don't care if the non-believer becomes a member of their church or not.
On the other hand, the SDA church preaches the SDA church. Their objective is to tell people about the Sabbath "truth" and the health message. The main thing is to sign members into the church. When you're baptized, you are baptized as an SDA (as opposed to being baptized as a plain old Christian). Even the vows include accepting EGW as the spirit of prophesy. (Mainstream churches do not include accepting their founders as prophets).
Do you see what I mean? Jesus and his disciples taught that salvation comes from believing only in him and his death and resurrection. The SDA church teaches that salvation comes from being a member of their "remnant" church and keeping the Sabbath.
The Bible is very clear. If you're not preaching THE gospel (spelled out there in 1st Corinthians 15) then you're preaching another or false gospel.
(I hope that explanation was just right!)
Leigh Anne |
Jim02
Registered user
Username: Jim02
Post Number: 850
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Friday, June 19, 2009 - 6:05 pm: | |
Leigh Anne,
Well spoken.
Thank you, this does help.
Jim |
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