| Author | Message | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 4917 Registered: 9-2006  |
I have had this on my mind a few days now and I thought I better write about it even though I get the feeling I am writing too much on the forum. Well…again though, what can you expect out of someone who writes, right?  I want to write about something that has been impressed on my mind about modern day prophecy the last few day’s. I am not always sure I should write, but when something keeps bugging me deep down to expound on it is usually the Lord. The gift of prophecy in the sense of the OT speaks to the people as they look forward to the promise and test of a prophet was that it must come true. The prophet of the OT was the way God spoke to the people, through a prophet. Mainly I want to deal with the Adventist churches claim that Ellen White was a modern day prophetess. It has been said so many times on the forum that the way to test Ellen White words is if they come true or not when she predicted some future event. They did not, therefore she is branded as a false prophet. What I want to explain is that this is not the only test. What I see as misunderstanding on the part of the former Adventist, is the tendency to think of a modern day prophet in the strict sense of a future speaker, someone who predicts or has inside knowledge of some event in the future. There is a difference in the office of a prophet after the cross, before the cross God spoke to the people through his chosen prophet, now he has spoken to us through his Son. Crucified, buried and resurrected and returned to the father and shed forth the Holy Spirit. So the office of prophet has changed and the test of a prophet has also changed in that the person with the gift of prophecy speaks to the church body under the auspices of the Holy Spirit. Now he doesn’t go through a prophet to hand out instruction, but speaks to all individually who have his Spirit living within them through various means of his choosing by his Spirit who lives within. He speaks through his word, he speaks to our spirits directly, but it will never contradict the word. He will never contradict his word because he is not a liar, never has been and never will be. We have ample historical evidence that the Bible has not been tampered with, so we can trust his word and our spirits confirm to us that his word is true and he himself confirmed his word is true and it cannot be manipulated. Now you may say “Well…if this is so, then why do we need a prophet at all?” We don’t. The minute you start looking to someone other than the Holy Spirit within you to speak to you on how to go and how to live you are in trouble. Now you may say “But..but..but Paul taught on prophecy.” Yes he did. He also taught on speaking with tongues, but half of you don’t believe in them, and if the other half heard me speak in tongues you would probably question my Christianity, you would probably back up and say “What the heck?” Lets be honest, we owe it to one another. What has kept bothering me is that you always seem to think of prophecy and future telling and in that context only. But here is what prophecy under the NC is for, so lets look at it, I am only going to look at one peace of scripture because that is all I have time for. The one scripture does indeed answer the question of what prophecy under the new covenant is for. Here it is, 1 Cor. 14:3 But he who prophesies speaks, edification, and exhortation and comfort to men. That is what prophecy under the NC does. Now we have the prophet in Acts 11:28 Then one of them, named Agabus, stood up and showed by the Spirit that there was going to be a great famine throughout all the world, which also happened in the days of Claudius Caesar. Acts 11:29 Then the disciples, each according to his ability, determined to send relief to the brethren dwelling in Judea. Acts 11:30 This they also did, and sent it to the elders by the hands of Barnabas and Saul. Here is the catch, even though he showed by the Spirit that there was going to be a time of famine, it still just edifies the church, it was not for the purpose of future telling or fortune telling. The church body hears the mind of the Spirit, so they were edified and proposed according to his best ability to send relief to the Christians at Judea. They didn’t follow Agabus around after that waiting to hear from God, they proposed to send relief and went on about their business. This whole business goes right back to the fact that we are under a new covenant and not the old covenant. Under the old covenant the prophet spoke to the people, under the new covenant God speaks to all the people who have come under that covenant. Who have the Holy Spirit living in them in other words. The Adventist runs under the flag (so to speak) of the old covenant and literally refuse to come under the new covenant and you can’t mix the old with the new, Jesus said that in his teaching about the wineskins. They keep trying to pour new wine into an old skin and folks it just won’t work! No way shape or form. We are new covenant Christians and every person who has the gift of prophecy is under the new covenant. So basically, what I am saying is that you cannot look at the gift of prophecy as under the old covenant. You have to take that also into the new covenant. Every single thing has to be brought under the new covenant, including the gift of prophecy, tongues, exhortation, every single thing. Neither can you judge what she said under the old covenant and that is the nitty gritty of what has been bugging me. So lets test what she has said under the new covenant, if your going to do it do it according to the word, not according to your thinking pattern, you still think like Adventist and you need to get rid of it in my own honest opinion. Now some maybe are going to think “Well..what is the test?” I just told you, see? You didn’t listen. Read it again 1 Cor. 14:3 But he who prophesies speaks, edification, and exhortation and comfort to men. See, I’m not nit picking all your previous statements about the test of a prophet, what I am trying to get you to see is that you need to get rid of the old Adventist thinking pattern. The test we are to give dear old Ellen is, does what she said edify the church? Not!! Does what she said exhort? Not!! Exhortation is simply exhorting out of the word of God without manipulation. Does what she said comfort the church? Are you kidding!!! A big NOT!! She is not a continuing source of inspiration unless you aspire to be a complete idiot. So, we can plainly see she failed the tests under the new covenant and the old covenant; she just flat fails on all counts. All she did was prove that she was a complete idiot. But the subject I am trying to get across is not whether Ellen spoke by the Holy Spirit, we know she didn’t. Spirit guide? Demon guide if anything, you know that and I know that. The whole point of this post is that I still see even you long timers are partly thinking under the old Adventist pattern of thinking and I know you don’t even realize it. Now listen, I am not criticizing anyone, I am trying to help you see something here. You can’t think under the old covenant like Adventist, think new covenant. River | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 229 Registered: 3-2009 |
River and everyone else, As far as the Spirit guiding us all instead of a written "code", there is something that I don't understand. We keep saying that we don't need the "law" because now we have the Spirit dwelling in us and He will lead and teach us what God wants us to learn and do. My question is, If all the Christians have the Spirit dwelling inside, how come the Spirit seems to be teaching different things to different people and then they divide in denominations because the Spirit teach then something different? If it is the same Spirit, how come He doesn't teach all Christian the same teachings? Even if we say that we have the Bible as our guide, how come the Spirit "interprets" it differently to different people (denominations)? Please, don't ignore this inquiry. I need to know. If this is not the right threat for this question, please start another one with the answer. Thanks. Hec | ||
| Honestwitness Registered user Username: Honestwitness Post Number: 864 Registered: 7-2005  |
Good points, River. I had never considered this angle before, but you're right. Hec, my husband always brings up your question, too. I don't necessarily have an answer, but you do make me ponder. I thought of a question, in response to your question. Is there anything in the Bible that tells us that the way we can test whether something is of the Holy Spirit is by the correctness of someone's doctrine? I have my own tentative answer on this, but I'm curious to see other folks' answers. Honestwitness | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 4920 Registered: 9-2006 |
Hec, I have thought about your questions today. I don't know whether I can answer them to your satisfaction or not. Corinthians I 12:13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body-whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free-and have all been made to drink into one Spirit. We are all baptized into one body, but we are also flesh. We disagree on a lot of things and the fact is that many Christians do not walk in the Spirit as commanded. (They are not baptized in the Spirit as commanded either) But the different denominations are just plain old confusion run rampant in the churches. The Holy Spirit doesn’t teach one to be a Baptist, another Methodist, divisions and so forth, its just plain old flesh acting out, Its just big I and little you and so you got all this confusion going on, it ain’t Gods fault, it’s our fault. You can trace this stuff back to the flesh every time. The problem is the old flesh wants to have its way. The churches won’t admit they are running on the flesh, but they are. If 90% of Christian really died to the old flesh the way they brag they are doing we wouldn’t have all this crap. I’m not talking about un-Christian churches, I’m talking about Christian churches here. Well, there ya are Hec. This is just one man’s opinion. River | ||
| Indy4now Registered user Username: Indy4now Post Number: 535 Registered: 2-2008  |
Hey River! Well, you have definitely answered my question! I hadn't thought about the function of a prophet under the new covenant being different than under the old. You're right... that is Adventist stinkin'... I mean "thinking"! I loved both yours and Phil's response to my questions on FB. I need to go back and add those to that note. Of course to explain this to an Adventist I think would be difficult. If their understanding of the NC is skewed, then I don't think they would be able to understand the role of a prophet under the NC. So much relearning to do and so little time in a day! Thanks for taking the time and writing one more thread! ~vivian p.s. EGW did a LOT of "fortune" telling. | ||
| Indy4now Registered user Username: Indy4now Post Number: 536 Registered: 2-2008 |
... and talking about New covenant. When I began to realize that there was a problem with Adventism, yet I couldn't pinpoint what it was, I was telling a friend of mine about the frustrations I was having at the church. She was not an Adventist but her daughter-in-law was and so she had attended the SDA church a few times. She told me that when she attended the church, she felt like they were living in the old covenant and hadn't moved on to living in the "new covenant". I shook my head and agreed with her... meanwhile, in my head I was wondering "what was the new covenant?" I figured that had to be the key but I was too embarrassed to ask her what that was all about. After she left, I called a friend of mine who was questioning also and asked her if she knew what the new covenant was. She didn't either!!! That was a HUGE turning point for me ... and I haven't turned back since! ~vivian | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1694 Registered: 4-2000  |
Hec, Thank you for asking an excellent and relevant question. First of all, none of God's ethical or moral laws have been abrogated. The ethics of the OT law are the ethics of the NT gospel. Murder is still murder and stealing is still stealing. Although Jesus expanded some moral teachings, He did not abrogate the underlying law itself. The moral laws of the OT are restated throughout the New Testament many times. "Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law" (Gal. 3:13) and not from our duty to obey His righteous demands. Since the law is summed up in love, what we're saying when we sin by transgressing the law is that we failed to love God and one another. The fact that we can't perfectly obey must not deter us to be haphazard in our obedience to God's revealed will for our lives. Truly, God deserves our very best because we love and honor him. His moral laws, whether they be found in sacred Scripture or in our heart, are binding. We have no authority to violate His will. It is the godly person who meditates on God's law day and night. While we seek to be "led" by the Holy Spirit, it is vital to remember that the Holy Spirit is primarily leading us into righteousness (right doing). It is His revealed will that is our business, indeed, the chief business of our lives. C. S. Lewis aptly stated that "no man knows how bad he is until he has tried to be good." The Ten Commandments functioned first as a part of the constitutional law of a nation; in Jesus' teaching they became the ethic of the kingdom of God, adding substance and direction to the "first and greatest commandment," that we love God with the totality of our being (Matt. 22:37-38). The commandments as such are not the basis of salvation; rather, to those who have been gifted with salvation and adopted into God's wonderful family, they are a guide toward that fulness of life in which love for God is given rich expression. While we are no longer under the Ten Commandments in a covenantal sense, the Ten Commandments still represent, in summary, the basic moral standards of God. In this sense they are still in force as the standard of righteousness that God's justice and holiness demands. The good news of the gospel of Christ is predicated upon the horrible news of the law's condemnation of sinners. Charles Spurgeon rightly stated: "The law is for the self-righteous, to humble their pride; the gospel is for the lost, to remove their despair." Since NINE of the Ten Commandments are reiterated several times in the New Testament, we certainly are not authorized to disregard any ethical standard in Scripture. It is a grave and serious error to throw out all the holy moral laws of the OT simply because of the fourth commandment being ceremonial in nature. Moreover, this is an overreaction of many former Adventists after having suffered spiritual abuse. Such a reckless reaction to spiritual abuse also needlessly alienates and neutralizes our credibility with both our Adventist and non-Adventist friends. Dennis Fischer | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 9930 Registered: 12-2003  |
River, what an insightful post above. Yes, you are totally right about the difference between an OT and a NT prophet--and also in the idea that Ellen must be measured also by the NT standards, since the new covenant is now extant. Hec, we cannot separate Scripture from the Holy Spirit in our application of truth. People can be well-versed in theology but not be born again. Others may have a "spiritual experience" but have no grounding in Scripture. God reveals Himself through His own word, and His Spirit teaches us what those words mean and how we are to interact with God Himself. The key to "getting it" is our willingness to submit to every word of Scripture and to the Holy Spirit's teaching. On one level this sounds obvious—even trite—but in reality, it is intense and profound. It is not easy to commit to submit one's life to every word of Scripture and to allow the Holy Spirit to teach and show us how to do that. This sort of submission requires holding loosely all that we value, allowing God to change us and take us where He wants us to be. Many people go to Scripture, but not with an attitude of submission. Instead, they have an attitude of "knowing" or of "proof-seeking" or of discovering what's right—when all the while, God is asking them to relate to Him in trust. When we go to Jesus with trust in an attitude of submission to His own revelation in His word, trusting Him to teach us what His own words mean, the result is transformation that doesn't get bogged down in defending a denominational perspective. Instead, it elicits profound praise and worship of the Lord Jesus. Colleen | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 9931 Registered: 12-2003 |
Oops--I was posting when you were, Dennis! I just saw your post above. Hec, one more thing: in general, we have misunderstood the function of the law Romans 4 and 5 clarify minutely the fact that the law was never about revealing "good behavior". It was for the purpose of increasing sin so grace would increase (Rom 5:20); it brings about wrath (Rom 4:15): if those who live by the law are heirs, faith has no value and the promise is worthless (Rom 4:14), etc. The law was given to reveal sin, to cause sin to increase so people would understand their depravity. The law itself is no more authoritative than all the rest of Scripture; every word of Scripture is God's revelation to us of His will, and the Holy Spirit is the promised Teacher who would lead us into all truth. We don't learn God's will by private revelation; we learn it through His word with the impact of the Holy Spirit revealing to us what those words mean and how we are to obey them. Dennis, to say that the law is not our standard of righteous behavior is not saying we throw out the moral laws. In fact, the 10 Commandments were NEVER, according to Romans, a standard for behavior. They were always about revealing sin and convicting people. The law was the accuser, not the standard. God Himself is the Standard. The moral principles reflected in the law are eternal—we do not have to have the 10 Commandments in order to know God's moral will. But we had to have the 10 Commandments to spell out the curse of sin. Jesus took care of this curse, and now, in Him, the curse is lifted and morality is available in Him. Colleen | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1695 Registered: 4-2000 |
Colleen, If God's moral laws (the laws of holy living), from the OT, are not relevant for believers today, then why are they restated multiple times throughout the NT as fully binding? Man was not created autonomous, that is, free to be a law to himself, but theonomous, that is, bound to keep the law of his Maker. Truly, the whole Bible is God's voice speaking to us. Dennis Fischer | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 4921 Registered: 9-2006 |
You know,at first I was very disturbed that my post immediately deteriorated into this, but as I thought about it, it come to mind that God knew before hand and yet prompted me to go ahead and post anyway, and I immediately submitted that also to him. I felt such a peace enter when I did and I am at perfect peace. Come to think closely about it, we are still on the same subject of being able to bring every single thing under subjection and into the new covenant, the new covenant is not just words, it is a spiritual matter as we bring all our lives into subjection to him. Mr. Fishers arguments reminds me of a lunch buffet, where you pass along all these pots of food,you take the mashed potatoes,a piece of chicken some salad and some dinner rolls and pass up the roast beef and the linguine, take a piece of apple pie and pass up the peach. The only problem with a buffet lunch is that even though you choose chicken, somehow it taste a little like roast beef, the mashed potato taste a little like the corn that was next too it and the apple pie taste just a little like peach. By the time I get through eating I got a bad taste in my mouth and I swear to my wife I'll never eat at another buffet. The only thing is, every time we go to our favorite week-end getaway, I end up eating at the stupid buffet because its quicker, easier and convenient, never mind that the smells are all mixed together. People are like that buffet with the Lord, they want to pick and choose, a little OC and a little NC and it ends up all mixed up. So you see we are still on the same subject as I started out with. I hope we can learn from this. Bringing it all under subjection to the Christ and receiving all his manifold blessing is what the new covenant is about.We don't come under submission by force, but by entering in to his love and peace flows like a river. The new covenant is not a dry theological mental state,it is a spiritual state and God has written himself on our hearts. We must come fully into his Spirit in order for that to flow out to others, or to put it another way we must be full in order for it to flow out to others. As a demonstration to what I mean, imagine taking a glass of water and setting it in the middle of your yard, take a water hose and fill it half full, you will soon see that the water does the rest of your yard no good, turn the hose back on and just let it run and the glass quickly overflows and if you just leave the running that glass will water your whole yard. Same with the Holy Spirit, when we let him fill every part of us, we overflow to those around us, no murders, no rapes. I recently wrote about what has been happening since my wife and I taken management of this park, it's still happening. The lady I told you about that had a sign in her window that read "Your all Bullies" came into the office yesterday smiling and came around the desk and hugged my wife hello. She said "Oh, the park is so changed, its so beautifull down at my end." Last night my wife and I were talking about what she said. I had to smile at that, I looked at my wife and said "She is the one that changed, you know that don't you?" My wife said "Yes, I know that." You see, I haven't done any planned work to her section of the park yet, its the same as when we got here. Oh, I plan to do some work down there, but it never looked bad in the first place so I placed it on low priority. God is touching so many lives in this park and all were doing is standing in amazement. Its not us, its God. Its just absolutely astounding, I told my wife last night I got people waving and smiling at me and I don't know who the heck they are or where they live, they live somewhere in the park. I kid you not when we first came here you couldn't have pried a wave or a smile out of anybody with a two by four. God is doing something here and I don't know how or what all he is doing, I'm just along for the ride. I come right back to my point of concern that I had for you all, I invite you to come fully into his covenant, fully into his Spirit and live in his blessings, I know you want to, but you got to leave the old Adventist thinking behind, you can't bring it with you. My dearest, dearest friends whom I love so much, I so feel in my heart of hearts that God is calling you fully into his Spirit today, don't let this opportunity pass you by, Oh, I so feel the overwhelming anointing of his Spirit this morning. May the blessed Holy Spirit give you peace. River | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 4922 Registered: 9-2006 |
Hec, I know that something I said sort of, shall we say, tied you in knots because of un-answered questions you still have plaguing your mind. Don't worry about this feeling of being tied in knots, its a part of growing, its painful I know. I am not saying NOT to seek answers to your questions, what I am saying is that you can trust him to teach you and when he teaches you, you will realize those answers not only in your mind, but in your Spirit. Hang in there Hec, its going to get better. I thought I was through, but I wasn't. It just dawned on me that we don't need to bring people out of Adventism, we need to bring them into Jesus, or to put it more succinctly, to bring them to Jesus and he will bring them into himself, and the Adventism will take care of itself and no longer be a problem. We got to lead them, not get behind them and drive them, that won't work. Now you can stick a fork in me. I'm done. River (Message edited by river on June 03, 2009) | ||
| Jrt Registered user Username: Jrt Post Number: 574 Registered: 10-2008 |
Hec, I've been thinking about your question for awhile now. Your question wouldn't leave my mind. Here is your original question: If all the Christians have the Spirit dwelling inside, how come the Spirit seems to be teaching different things to different people and then they divide in denominations because the Spirit teach then something different? If it is the same Spirit, how come He doesn't teach all Christian the same teachings? Even if we say that we have the Bible as our guide, how come the Spirit "interprets" it differently to different people (denominations)? Hec, here are my thoughts - incomplete as they are. In Adventism we were trained to understand truth to equal doctrine. Truth = Right Doctrine Right Doctrine = Salvation You can interpret Right Doctrine as statement of beliefs or creeds or ... right understanding Coming out of Adventism my paradigm is completely shifting. But I'm still affected by the old paradigm. Now Truth = Jesus Jesus = Salvation Scripture teaches this: "I am the way, the TRUTH, and the life. No one comes to the Father except by Me." (John 14:6) Truth is not about right understanding. Truth is about a fellowship with Jesus Christ. He is Truth. The Living Holy God is truth, not a belief. So, ... I hope I don't lose you here ... Just keep in the back of your mind that Truth = Jesus. What is the work of the Holy Spirit? Hec, I did a Biblegateway search of the word Holy Spirit as I thought about your question last night. I read through many texts. I was struck by what the Holy Spirit did? The Holy Spirit revealed God to people/ not doctrinal understanding. (Now some of you don't start having a "hissy" fit). Work with me here .. John the Baptist would be filled with the Holy Spirit - and His message was - I'm not Elijah or Christ, but I'm to tell you about the One to come - Jesus - whom I can't even tie His shoelace (Luke 1:14-16) Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit and her baby leaped in her womb and her exclamation was - Mary you are favored, because you carry Christ (Luke 1:40-42) Zachariah filled with the Holy Spirit prophesied about Jesus - (Luke 1:66-69) Simeon at the temple had been filled with the Holy Spirit so that he recognized this Jewish baby as the one who would save the world - (Luke 2:25-30) In the gospel of John it states 25"All this I have spoken while still with you. 26But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. (John 14:25-27) 15"If you love me, you will obey what I command. 16And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever— 17the Spirit of truth.(John 14:15-17) Hec, I would recommend reading the whole chapter of John 14. The Holy Spirit, who lives inside us, leads us to truth AND that Truth is Jesus. And the result of being led to Truth is Love. Read 1 Cor. 12 the love chapter. In 1 John, I believe it says that people will know we are His disciples by our love not by our knowledge of scripture or our doctrine. In Acts during Pentecost when the Holy Spirit decended - what was the result. People were led to Jesus. Acts 1:8 says that they would be witnesses ... witnesses of what? Doctrine? NO, Jesus. Acts 4:31-35 also talks about what happened when the Holy Spirit decended - they were all of one mind and heart ... was that doctrine? According to how I read the text it was a love for each other and providing for each others needs so that no one was hungry and the Good news was spread. The apostles continued to testify of Jesus. And here is one of the neatest passages - notice the use of the word command: This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us. And with that I better quit! soon. The Holy Spirit does reside in the believer and leads us all to Truth - but this Truth is Jesus - not statements of belief/doctrine. And the Holy Spirit residing in us teaches us how to Love God with all our heart, mind, and soul and our neighbor as ourselves. This Truth is LIVING not dead - not a dead statement of belief or doctrine. So why do we have so many different denominations - does it really matter? What matters is that those in these denominations are born again, testify to what Jesus has done, and love their neighbor through the power of the Holy Spirit living in them. Mind you I have leaned to one side in my explanation. Only because our understanding was so skewed to one side as an Adventist. Yes, the Holy Spirit will teach us things through scripture. But even Jesus said to the Pharisees that they knew scripture, but they didn't know HIM. As I come out of Adventism - I wait with patience for each new understanding the Holy Spirit teaches me - and with each new understanding I become more and more amazed at this LIVING relationship with Jesus (Who is Truth). Sorry, River. . . I hope I didn't derail. Hec, I'm praying for you and me as our paradigms bounce around and change. It is NOT easy. With Christian Love, Keri | ||
| Seekinglight Registered user Username: Seekinglight Post Number: 193 Registered: 3-2009 |
Amen, Keri. Hope you don't mind, but I'm thinking about integrating some of what you said into my exit letter. | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 230 Registered: 3-2009 |
Thank you so much for your replies. Keri, that was very good as far as the SDA paradigm is concerned. Again, it gives me the peace (hoping) that I don't need to have all the answers as long as I have Jesus. As SDA, it's hard to change that paradigm because we have been trained very well to depend in a ready answer for everything, regardless of how it relates to Jesus. That'll probably be the hardest thing for me. I think I understand most of the doctrines, but to change that thinking pattern,the one that says that I must have a proof text for every question is getting to be very difficult. So you all, please stay with me. Hold the hands of this baby. Nature indicates that in time he will learn to walk and won't need so much hand holding anymore. River, I'm sorry that your post deteriorated into this. It was not my intention. That's why I said that if my question was not appropriate for this post, to start a new one with the replies. Next time, I'll try to start a new topic when I have a question. I'm still learning, but I pray that Jesus will get me there one day. Thank you all. Hec | ||
| Jrt Registered user Username: Jrt Post Number: 575 Registered: 10-2008 |
Hec, Oops. I made a mistake and said 1 Cor. 12 was the love chapter ... I meant 1 Cor. 13. 2If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. (1 Cor. 13:2; NASB) I so appreciate you. You ask such good questions and often mirror feelings I'm going through. I'm in the baby crib with you . I still wrestle and struggle and seem to take two steps forward and one step back. May I add one more thing ... as I was thinking about it ... I made a flippant comment that I'd like to clarify and revisit. So why do we have so many different denominations - does it really matter? My understanding is that the church or denomination I choose needs to see scripture as the inerrant Word of God (not thought inspiration as SDA's teach) and that Jesus is fully God and died to pay the debt for our sins. We don't contribute anything to our salvation. So does denomination matter - yes, if they don't see scripture as God's word or Jesus as Lord, and have a doctrine of works - than denomination does matter. I know that FAF has better articulated how to find a church than what I wrote. I didn't want to leave the impression that we shouldn't be "choosy" with the church we attend. Hec, I TOTALLY relate to your comment about needing peace and you don't need to have all the answers as long as you have Jesus. Last summer as I began my own journey of discovery I remember becoming almost panicked about discerning what was truth? If I left Adventism how would I know if the denomination I joined had truth? There are so many denominations. The woman that was asking me questions and just "loving" me wrote me an email I'll never forget. It was an "aha". She used the scripture text, "I am the way, the TRUTH, and the life". She referred to Jesus as Truth. A big Chinese gong went off in my head. And I realized that I needed to trust the one that is Truth to lead me to where I would worship and what I would understand from scripture. My last thoughts ... In philosophy there are 3 main important questions everyone must answer in their life. A. What is real? B. What is truth? C. What is of value? The answer to those questions becomes your world view - the way you interact with your world. In Adventism the answers were the following: A. What is real? Ellen White, Her prophesies of end time events, the physical part of our existence (body or flesh). B. What is truth? Adventist doctrine. C. What is of value? Looking good. Acting right. Behaving well. Following the rules. The new paradigm is the following: A. What is real? Jesus (and Him crucified and risen from the dead) B. What is truth? Jesus (and Him crucified and risen from the dead) C. What is of value? Jesus (loving Him well and others well through the work of the Holy Spirit in our lives.) Anyways, ... Keri P.S. River, I have an assumption that you don't mind us interacting on your thread. P.S.S. Seekinglight - use whatever you wish. I might "steal" your letter when your done. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 4925 Registered: 9-2006 |
You assumed right Keri, I don,t mind at all. I sure do like the teaching you did though. If you ever want to come West.... | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 812 Registered: 7-2007 |
Hec, a lot of denominations have the gospel. If they have the essentials of the gospel they're all right. If a person has Jesus right and everything else wrong, he's okay; but if he has Jesus wrong and everything else right, then he's not. In other words, all the false religions have Jesus wrong. Mormons have a Jesus who had a beginning. SDAs have a Jesus who didn't finish the atonement at the cross and isn't omniscient, because their Jesus has to go over the records of everybody to see if they can be saved. Catholics have a Jesus who has to be sacrificed over and over and over at every mass. (That's why it's called "the sacrifice of the mass.") The Jesus of the Bible said "it is finished." All who accept Him HAVE eternal life. (John 5:24) Many denominations have Jesus right - just be careful, check out their teachings and make sure that they have the gospel. Dennis, when a person has the Holy Spirit living within them, doing something evil is as disgusting to them as going swimming in a sewage pond. Haven't you noticed, when you cut down through the angst of the Adventist baggage that a lot of us have - don't you notice the love and joy of the Spirit deep within you? Remember when we were Adventist, if we were tempted to do something that we knew we shouldn't; it was sheer willpower that kept us from doing it? Those of us who were by comparison "better" than a lot of others were lulled into thinking that we were okay. Then when we became Christians, we didn't have to think so much about it. God is wonderful and He does the work! | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 9934 Registered: 12-2003 |
Keri, wonderful posts. Thank you! River, I still think you had amazing insights about Ellen and the prophetic gift. Thank you again. Colleen | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 233 Registered: 3-2009 |
Thank you people. Wonderful thoughts! Keri, You are and overgrown baby.:-)(If you are a baby at all.) Hec |
